Israel ready to react with 'great force': Netanyahu

Originally posted by Redevilfan09
reply to post by jonnywhite

 

I wonder if Israel attacked a bigger country they would still be good at winning wars? All I see is too piss ant states playing tug of war.

Might usually makes right. At the end of the day, the production capacity, the intellectual capacity and other beneficial traits are what make the victor. NOT being right. That's the white lie. In actual truth, victor is determine beforehand by a simple tally of a nations traits and behaviors.

Look at Russia. How many people do you tink were wronged by Stalin? How many wrongs do you think Russia has stacked up over the course of the past 65 years? Bottom line, we won't war with Russia unless it's a matter of life and death. Otherwise, it's might makes right, essentially.

True justice is too expensive to employ it everywhere.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
Israel = modern industry and freedom and renowned scientists
Palestine = some broken down villages and people launching homemade rockets into israel

Which would you rather have on your side? If you didn't know who was right, who would you pick? Siding with israel is just a strategical choice.

The main problem with your logic here is that Israel is what it is because of the support of "the west" not because it just out competed Palestine on its own and we backed the better nation. You have cause and effect entirely backwards. If "the west" had not been supporting Israel all these years all you would see is a little burned greasy streak on the map where Israel used to be.

Israel was created to serve "western" economic ends. Sure, it has its own agenda, which is often problematic for the corporatists, but the nice thing about that religious agenda is it keeps Christians in many western nations supportive of Israel and the economic policies in the region.

If Israel was not crucial to end time prophecies, you would not have much support for Israel at all in the US.

Here is a post by a person named Gabriel Latner that attended a debate regarding Israel and its position in the world. I have to say I agree with him and his unorthodox approach.

Gabriel Latner's Israel a 'rogue state' speech in full

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by jonnywhite
Israel = modern industry and freedom and renowned scientists
Palestine = some broken down villages and people launching homemade rockets into israel

Which would you rather have on your side? If you didn't know who was right, who would you pick? Siding with israel is just a strategical choice.

The main problem with your logic here is that Israel is what it is because of the support of "the west" not because it just out competed Palestine on its own and we backed the better nation. You have cause and effect entirely backwards. If "the west" had not been supporting Israel all these years all you would see is a little burned greasy streak on the map where Israel used to be.

Israel was created to serve "western" economic ends. Sure, it has its own agenda, which is often problematic for the corporatists, but the nice thing about that religious agenda is it keeps Christians in many western nations supportive of Israel and the economic policies in the region.

If Israel was not crucial to end time prophecies, you would not have much support for Israel at all in the US.

edit on 25-3-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)

Don't forget that our alliance, if that's what it's to be called, is of strategic interest in that region. Israel holds its own, though. Since 1967 we've given them quite a bit but that was on top of what was already a success. Basically, one can say that Israel has value to us and value is might, fundamentally. Their value is greater than palestine - is what I'm saying - and if I'm faced with confusion about who is morally right, I side with what the math tells me.

You know reality, like when bombs are dropping, doesn't give us much time to ponder. Understand? Maybe someday we'll have the time and/or the money to make sure everything is perfectly moral. We attempt to do that with our domestic justice system. But employing that in the heat of war is ludicrous. No time for it even if you had the money.

reply to post by Skewed


Its a good speech in that it plays to the emotions, but it could be readily smacked down by anyone with a brain and the platform to do so.

It eloquent, but it isnt impressive at all in terms of content. After all, America, Australia, Israel, Canada, the nations who brutalized the indigenous populations that he wanted to avoid discussing, we all founded by the British Monarchy. Whose sole mission in life has been the brutalization and exploitation of indigenous peoples, including the British at many points in history. That SHOULD be part of the debate. But he didnt want to go there.

He wanted to focus on Israeli soldiers helping illegal immigrants trying to cross the border. Not Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children walking home from school or crushing aid workers with a bulldozer or shooting them in the head.

I could make a speech that shined a light on Hitlers good qualities too, if I were allowed to ignore all his faults and no one were there to oppose me.

reply to post by jonnywhite


Homemade rockets?

The border is open between Gaza and Egypt and RUSSIAN/IRANIAN made rockets, DE-FACTO rockets, are being launched into Israeli towns..

Apparently every response Israel does is "disproportionate"

Lets say this was Tijuana, and Rockets were being launched into San Diego neighborhoods. What would be the 'proportional' response? Surely any sensible person would understand that whats proportionate, is whats Necessary. If they wont stop doing it, something must be done to prevent its continuance. THEY are the ones bringing any perceieved 'disproporationate' attack on themselves.

I cannot kill a person of a particular town, than hide amongst my friends in another town, and commit the same offence every month, expecting those hiding me not to incur a measure of the punishment when those of the other town finally resolve to do something about it. War is not so simple to just give a 'proportionate' attack ie; they kill one person, and so i should kill one aswell. If one party is innocent, while the other is initiating those attacks, than ALL who support or abet the activities of the guilty party are guilty-by-association. This is how domestic law works. If i hide a fugitive i am likely to go to jail aswell.

If Palestinians tolerate Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Brigade, and if the PLO refuses to specifically denounce any of these groups... and if attacks from Palestine against Israeli civilians continue to occur, than the only rational way to insure ones own safety is to punish the Palestinian people. Obviously, not to a great degree, but to a point where THEY will take it upon themselves not to harbor and abet terrorists.

reply to post by jonnywhite


That doesnt make your argument in your earlier post any more valid. We are not allies with Israel because they are successful, Israel is successful because they are our allies. You made the argument. I just pointed out you had it ass backwards.

Yes, Israel is important for economic reasons. But not to the tax payers who are paying to support it. To private economic interests in many places, (including the US) it is of absolute strategic importance in the battle to extract resources from the region, and the fact that the Jews and Israel are important to end time prophecy allows those economic interests a lot of leeway with those tax payers paying to support an economic policy that isnt making them rich.

Everything about Israel works for the elite. Dangling the return of Jesus like a carrot on a stick keeps majority Christian voters at least marginally supportive of the tax dollars used to keep Israel viable. Even though they arent really benefiting from those policies, and that the main reason why Israel and not Palestine. The Palestinians have no saleability at home with the Christians, like the Jews do.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I also look at it from another aspect, and considering the fact that as a person if I had been treated the way the Jews have been treated, I might be a little quicker than usual to lash out when infringed upon. No one seems to ever mention the fact that Jews have been some of the most abused group of people that ever walked on this planet. If it was not for King Nebuchadnezzer, Christians, Spain exiling them and then Hitler they have not exactly had it so easy. So every time they turned around they have been abused. So finally they have worked themselves up to a status that they are now able to defend them selves. So if they still feel a little bullied I understand, the Jews have been bullied all through out history, and now, they can say we are not taking it anymore.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by jonnywhite

 

Homemade rockets?

The border is open between Gaza and Egypt and RUSSIAN/IRANIAN made rockets, DE-FACTO rockets, are being launched into Israeli towns..

Apparently every response Israel does is "disproportionate"

Lets say this was Tijuana, and Rockets were being launched into San Diego neighborhoods. What would be the 'proportional' response? Surely any sensible person would understand that whats proportionate, is whats Necessary. If they wont stop doing it, something must be done to prevent its continuance. THEY are the ones bringing any perceieved 'disproporationate' attack on themselves.

I cannot kill a person of a particular town, than hide amongst my friends in another town, and commit the same offence every month, expecting those hiding me not to incur a measure of the punishment when those of the other town finally resolve to do something about it. War is not so simple to just give a 'proportionate' attack ie; they kill one person, and so i should kill one aswell. If one party is innocent, while the other is initiating those attacks, than ALL who support or abet the activities of the guilty party are guilty-by-association. This is how domestic law works. If i hide a fugitive i am likely to go to jail aswell.

If Palestinians tolerate Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Brigade, and if the PLO refuses to specifically denounce any of these groups... and if attacks from Palestine against Israeli civilians continue to occur, than the only rational way to insure ones own safety is to punish the Palestinian people. Obviously, not to a great degree, but to a point where THEY will take it upon themselves not to harbor and abet terrorists.

I agree 100% with you. I'm only stating that Palestine is a wreck compared to Israel. My example was maybe not perfect, but you get it? I refrain from judging the moral-ness of israel or palestine's activities. I simply put my bet on Israel because they're the better.

I absolutely agree. If these rockets were landing on american soil, we would have have responded the very next day, at most. Yet, since this is happening in Israel, it's somehow permissable and wrong for Israel to respond. If Israel reacts by protecting its interests, I cannot blame them. I don't pretend to know how this situation happened, though.

I do know that Hamas took control via a vote by the citizenry. So in my mind, these attacks are essentially a decleration of war. This situation will not be settled on the negotiating table.

Originally posted by Skewed
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

I also look at it from another aspect, and considering the fact that as a person if I had been treated the way the Jews have been treated, I might be a little quicker than usual to lash out when infringed upon.

So if women get all crazy and start lobbing bombs at men, you will understand because of tens of thousands of years of oppression?

Or if black people in the US start lobbing bombs you will understand because of the horror of slavery?

The Jews have had their share of problems and suffering. So have the Soviets, the Poles, the Irish, the Native Americans, in fact, who hasnt?

Its a very modern thing for people to use the argument, "my ancestors have suffered and therefore I should be able to be a horrible asshole at any time I want." In the past, you dealt with it and moved on. We ALL have.

I dont feel for one moment their "lashing out" violently is justified by the suffering of their ancestors. You dont get to claim the pain of your ancestors. You get to claim your OWN pain. Poland isnt acting all crazy because they got raped by Hitler. So there is no excuse for the Jews. They are playing on the worlds sympathy for them much like the US did when we attacked a totally innocent nation after 9-11. Its justification, not justice.

Originally posted by CanadianDream420
I, for one, would hope our Canadian military would intervene and do the same thing if Alaskan terrorists were lobbing rockets, whether they hit or not, in our territory.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Canada had an Apartheid on Alaska and set up a blockade(Act Of War) on almost all imports and exports and ensures that Alaska gets minimal water

Do you have a link on Canada doing that to Alaska perhaps?
Thx in advance

Israel should adopt America's National Security Plan.

Leave border open allowing Felons, murderers, drug cartels, and foreign military ops to cross into your country then just don't publicize all of the murders and crime they do.

Werks for us.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by CanadianDream420
I, for one, would hope our Canadian military would intervene and do the same thing if Alaskan terrorists were lobbing rockets, whether they hit or not, in our territory.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Canada had an Apartheid on Alaska and set up a blockade(Act Of War) on almost all imports and exports and ensures that Alaska gets minimal water

Do you have a link on Canada doing that to Alaska perhaps?
Thx in advance

You see neither side is good or moral. No doubt about it. That's why so many disagree. I've been here and done that. This is why I stopped trying to find out who was morally right. When you look at history, what you see is nations fighting over things. And you see might often making right. It's more often the case than not. It's just the reality of our material existence. It's our priority. How can you blame us? We need food and air and resources to live.

At the end of the day terrorists are causing mayhem in israel and israel is bombing innocent palestinians, but it's a heck of a lot easier to stop the palestinians than ti's to stop the israelis. Israel is nuclear armed. Their citizens are educated. It would be hell on earht to stop them. So it's a strategical choice to side with them. Can you unerstand that?

We make these kinds of choices everyday, all around the world.

Whne jesus cam here to offer us something better it didn't make us good. We're still filthy and evil and everything else. I look at us all as being in the same pen. It's an ugly place to be. Martin Luther battled with this. The reality that this world is corrupt and we sin every moment.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
It's just the reality of our material existence. It's our priority. How can you blame us? We need food and air and resources to live.

You are right, like any other animal, we will fight and kill for resources. Lets just not dress it up and pretend it is something it isnt. In this case, you have a group of people imported into an area and displacing the natives, and stealing their land and resources, and lets just call it what it is. A brutal and animal attempt to slaughter others to promote your own kind.

You know we HAVE birth control. Human beings COULD decide to drop to population levels which allowed the various groups of humans good quality of life around the globe. We could choose to maintain numbers that didnt require us to constantly be raping and pillaging and displacing etc.

We could decide to evolve, we have the technology, just not the desire.

Edit to add,

And actually there IS a more moral side to things. It is more moral to defend your territory against invaders than it is to be an invader. Virtually all humans acknowledge the right to defend. The Jews are less moral in this fight.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by jonnywhite
It's just the reality of our material existence. It's our priority. How can you blame us? We need food and air and resources to live.

You are right, like any other animal, we will fight and kill for resources. Lets just not dress it up and pretend it is something it isnt. In this case, you have a group of people imported into an area and displacing the natives, and stealing their land and resources, and lets just call it what it is. A brutal and animal attempt to slaughter others to promote your own kind.

You know we HAVE birth control. Human beings COULD decide to drop to population levels which allowed the various groups of humans good quality of life around the globe. We could choose to maintain numbers that didnt require us to constantly be raping and pillaging and displacing etc.

We could decide to evolve, we have the technology, just not the desire.

I'm sorry but the only evolution is through jesus and death. It'll never change in this world. Many people peddle this idea that one day everything will be better. But the reality is they' believe their own lies. This world has as much potential as hitler did as a holyman.

You know the bible says the path is narrow. That's not a joke.

Originally posted by muse7
Yeah I'd say! I mean if Canada was wiped out from the map by the U.N to be replaced with another country and Canadians were forced to stay in Newfoundland wouldn't you guys also try some sort of retaliation?

You mean what happened to the native americans?

i dont see any of them lobbing bombs or threatening to drive the white man into the sea.

Originally posted by fedeykin
i dont see any of them lobbing bombs or threatening to drive the white man into the sea.

Give them a hundred billion dollar weapons programme........

Originally posted by jonnywhite
]I'm sorry but the only evolution is through jesus and death. It'll never change in this world

And that explains a lot.

Like I said before. For some, its all about getting that holy war rolling so Jesus will return.

You better hope your own religion is a myth. Because if there is a Jesus, he isnt going to be pleased at all the warmongering ya'll have been up to trying to bring him back on your schedule instead of letting him manage his own time.

reply to post by CanadianDream420


Eh, most of us intelligent natives have let go of the past. We seem to be in the minority though lol. It's not really comparable though, my ancestors were screwed, yes. These people are being screwed as we speak.

Netanyahu the brute animal should be in london zoo
if Israel attacks gaza country's around the state of israel should just steam roll that piece of shxt state of the planet and america israel's only true friend can cry a river

This is the mass murder they commited last time

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