Compasses going crazy...Theories and Research

reply to post by XtraTL


WE (read: us that have compass "faults") don`t need you to believe us. WE just want enough data to figure this out. YOU can do whatever you want. If your post isn`t productive to the thread then please don`t bother writing.

Originally posted by watchdog
reply to post by THEDUDE86

 

Um if you would bother to actually read the posts you would see that I provded a map (Google earth, Google map, and my own personal map), as well as my engineers compass AND my reference point, THE SUNRISE!! How's that for your reference point?

The direction of the sunrise depends where you live and what time of year it is. If that is your reference point, it explains your error.

Originally posted by MadDogtheHunter
Is it possible that the quake in Japan altered the poles?

Yes it did. It shifted magnetic north a few feet off, which also altered GPS systems by a few feet.

I know this because my geography instructor went to a conference right after the Japan earthquake, and by coincidence, all of the leading earthquake scientists of Canada were there and this was the big discussion.

reply to post by XtraTL


If this is one of those freak times where ALOT of people notice their compasses not functioning correctly or their skills of using them beeing weak. Then WE sincerely appologize for YOU`RE (read: you who don`t have a problem with your compass) time.

I have been using a compass and map for over 15 years. I also know 8 different ways of finding Eastwestnorthsouth witout a compass. Using the MAP I can tell you my reading was enough degrees of to ask here for a reason.

Productive answers or more data please!

Originally posted by br0ker
reply to post by XtraTL

 

WE (read: us that have compass "faults") don`t need you to believe us. WE just want enough data to figure this out. YOU can do whatever you want. If your post isn`t productive to the thread then please don`t bother writing.

If you actually cared to figure this out, you'd:

1) Check your compasses are working

2) Carefully check which direction true north is on a map by looking at some landmarks which you can measure the angle to accurately

3) Carefully check the declination at your location and make sure you understand what it means for the measurements you are taking

I believe I've read every post in this thread. So far I've seen zero evidence anyone has eliminated these possible errors in their measurements.

Until someone does this, this thread is nothing but a time consuming lesson in how to use a compass and read a map.

Ample evidence has been posted to demonstrate that there is no worldwide anomaly in the earth's magnetic field at present.

reply to post by freestonew


l have been thinking along those lines myself. lt would explain a lot. Also, the spraying of metalic particles in areas may also have an effect. That could be why some folk are seeing their readings off while say 20/30 miles away people are getting different readings. l don't know, crazy times for certain though. Peace star.

Originally posted by Romanian
www.ngdc.noaa.gov...

This website should show you the declination on your location (by ZIP code).

FYI: my declination:

Declination

I am in south west England and when I moved into my house it had a south west facing garden, confirmed by two basic little compasses. These compasses have remained in the same place for three years since. Two weeks ago, roundabout, I noticed they now indicated my garden is more of a north east direction.

I had been wondering about this, and then I noticed this thread............thought I had been imagining it!

9:58 here in North East Ohio, raining now, will go outside after it stops to check again.

Originally posted by br0ker
reply to post by XtraTL
I have been using a compass and map for over 15 years. I also know 8 different ways of finding Eastwestnorthsouth witout a compass. Using the MAP I can tell you my reading was enough degrees of to ask here for a reason.

You told us the following facts:

* You live in Southern Norway
* The declination in your area is approximately two degrees (I concur -- declination is about 2 degrees EAST in Oslo, Southern Norway)
* You used two different compasses
* You noted a difference of 13-18 degrees with respect to a street which is north/south on a map
* You give an overall estimate of the error margin of 5 percent.

I computed 5% of 360 degrees actually covers your entire 18 degrees, and I concur with your error analysis.

What do you think the maximum error is in your measurement of the following, in degrees:

1) The direction of the street as drawn by the cartographers on the map you are using
2) Your judgement of the direction of the street on the map
3) Your judgement of which way the compass is pointing relative to the direction of the street
4) The error in the north/south direction of your compass itself
5) The declination in your area
6) Interference due to mineralisation, overhead or underground electrical wires
7) Interference due to solar wind, which becomes more pronounced the closer to the poles you get

I concur that 18 degrees is a reasonable assessment of the possible errors in your case.

Unless you can find a way to make a more accurate measurement, I see nothing anomalous about your readings whatsoever.

Most of the GPS point North because of the map data not because they have real compasses installed, but My garmin 60CSx has a real compass and it shows 2 types of showing the compass True North and Magnetic north the only one that is off.

Originally posted by Liberterius
reply to post by ScorpioRising

 

These "anomalies" are with certain peoples understanding of basic compass skills and knowledge, not with the Earths magnetic fields. If you perhaps opened your eyes this would be blatantly obvious to you. GPS's and Garmins and phone app "compasses" point to geographic north, this is because they are for people in cities who couldn't find their way across town without a google app. Real compasses point to what is called magnetic North, magnetic north and geographic north are not the same thing, now stay with me here because here is where it gets really confusing for some folks, everywhere on the surface of the planet owing to geologic features and the makeup of the underlying earth mantle there is whats called "magnetic variation" or deviation in some circles, what this means is that how "far off" your compass points to from magnetic North depends on where you are and what the deviation is there. With me? not only do all compasses not point to geographic north they also don't even point to true magnetic north depending upon where you are. This is what everyone posting here about "anomolies" truly and obviously do not understand.

Debunked.

edit on 20-3-2011 by Liberterius because: misspelling

OK ok
I did a small test............
wait ohhh here it goes.....

As 90+% of long time ATS er's know Im retired, and help bartend to keep busy and keep from going absolutely ape crap crazy....
That said...heres what I did, next 10 ppl that walk into this bar, get handed an engineers compass...
"Tell me what you read?" Here..... I know where true north is from walkin this land for almost 40 years...compass reads correct for me....

Almost every person that come in reads it all jack wonkied.....North here reads about 6 degrees off...in my experiences..
Given the + or - of 9 degrees which is the common misreading guidelines for general readings...

Almost every person says this thing reads either "0" or 17-26 degrees, or 342 degrees... depending on whether they put the line on "0" or their best guess as to where true redneck north, is, and then read it.."I'm one of these"....

So irregaurdless of what is right or wrong this could easily have a >>>>>>tolerance

reply to post by XtraTL

I've never seen anyone so upset over a few "misread" compasses.

reply to post by br0ker


Sorry, I do not recall, what was your compass reading? Maybe I will ask several friends to also take readings, i guess this thread will not go quiet soon


I guess we should measure this every 6 hours and see if we have any significant fluctuation. My current location is fine, but I will keep an eye on it.

I personally just checked all three of my compasses here at my location.
Also walked out to the middle of my field, in the pouring rain, and checked from there.

No strange readings here, North is still where it's always been.

reply to post by XtraTL


Yep Xtra covered that already as well in one of my previous posts (go back and read my post about having coffee with my husband this time of year out on my porch). I know exactly where I LIVE and where the sun should be at this time of year and I also know depending on what time of day it is, where the sun should be in the sky.

Also if someone is stranded out in the middle of nowhere during the DAY when the North Star isn't visible and they have no compass, why would it NOT be an acceptable and reliable reference point? Remember this is a military family, we have had plenty of training in navigating and using a compass.

Ok, so I just got off the phone with my husband (who is a SOLDIER and had more land navigation exercises and compass training than I and/or possibly some of you, and before even telling him what was going on here in this thread I asked him to tell me where sunrise should be at this time of year. His response, "Almost directly behind our neighbors house across the street which faces east. What a silly question baby, you know that from being blinded by it in the mornings when we would sit out there drinking our coffee." So I explained to him which direction the compass was reading magnetic north and according to his statement a few seconds earlier about the sunrise being across the street, where TRUE north should be and he said "remember to figure in the declination because Fort Bragg area is around 7 degrees W I think and he said from what you are explaining and the compass readings you sound pretty much dead on." I corrected him and said 8 degrees. Then he said it would be interesting to talk to some of the local SFAS guys (special forces canidates and SF guys training) here at Bragg to see if they are seeing the same discrepancies and having to redraw or adjust maps for land nav. and their training. Then I told him about this thread and our discussions and he told told me to just quit responding you those of you basically calling the rest of us idiots, because we don't need your validation, you are just a handful of people who aren't seeing what I/we are seeing.

Oh and before any of you ask, the reason I was on the phone with him and had to explain to him what I was seeing and my readings is because he is deployed to Indonesia ATM and has been for 9 months, so he isn't here to see it for himself.

reply to post by XtraTL


Sorry, I do not agree you calculate the 5 % error based on 360 degrees. I would base it on 180. Also some of yuour possible errors should offset other errors. my opinion anyway.

Originally posted by XtraTL

Originally posted by br0ker
reply to post by XtraTL

 

WE (read: us that have compass "faults") don`t need you to believe us. WE just want enough data to figure this out. YOU can do whatever you want. If your post isn`t productive to the thread then please don`t bother writing.

If you actually cared to figure this out, you'd:

1) Check your compasses are working

2) Carefully check which direction true north is on a map by looking at some landmarks which you can measure the angle to accurately

3) Carefully check the declination at your location and make sure you understand what it means for the measurements you are taking

I believe I've read every post in this thread. So far I've seen zero evidence anyone has eliminated these possible errors in their measurements.

Until someone does this, this thread is nothing but a time consuming lesson in how to use a compass and read a map.

Ample evidence has been posted to demonstrate that there is no worldwide anomaly in the earth's magnetic field at present.

1: Check
2: Check, see my latest post.
3: Check, see my latest post.

Ok, now what?

Check to see if it happens in different locations? Check, I changed places because the north\south line on the compass was acting up. I thought it might be a local problem with magnetism in my appartment.

New lesson in how to use a compass? After 15 years of doing it, I have most likely spent more nights in the wilderness then you. In weather from 35 degrees celsius to - 30 degrees celsius and from calm weather to storm and minus 17 degrees celcius. I`ve slept in snow-caves I dug my self, in tents on mountain tops and under a clear sky in minus 20 degrees celsius.

I just want to see another post from norway, preferably the same day and in the same vicinity showing normal readings.

On the other hand Mr. XtraTL, do you have documented anomalies in for example "the silence zone", or are those documentations also people not mastering the skill of a map and compass?

Don`t take me for a fool....

Originally posted by Romanian
reply to post by XtraTL

 

Sorry, I do not agree you calculate the 5 % error based on 360 degrees. I would base it on 180. Also some of yuour possible errors should offset other errors. my opinion anyway.

edit on 20-3-2011 by Romanian because: (no reason given)

The five percent is a red herring anyway. I base it on 360 degrees because the scale goes from 0 to 360. But it's irrelevant.

Actually, if you give two definite points which a human can easily distinguish, they can roughly divide it into five parts accurately. Any more than that and they get inaccurate results.

The error in *each* measurement is probably at least 5 degrees. Angles are simply not something we measure accurately as humans.

Try it as an experiment. On the floor of your house, place three objects, one where you are standing, and two on the other side of the room so that the angle subtended is what you feel 5 degrees is (no cheating). Base this on your assessment of 90 degrees (a right angle) divided up mentally into what you think is 5 degrees.

Now measure accurately all three sides of the triangle you've marked out. You can use a calculator to compute the actual angle (I can give you a formula for it). You'll find that we simply aren't able to accurately gauge angles.

One needs to use extremely accurate sighting gauges to get reliable angles.

I have no problem with brokers 18 degrees.

What I have a problem with is the OP's 90 degrees, then 30 degrees, then 55 degrees (all supposed to be the same angle).

I have a theory but I have a feeling everyone is just going to laugh.