The 2012 Phenomenon (and why it is so VERY dangerous to perpetuate this nonsense...)

I just hope that when we wake up the day after, and nothing at all has happened, it was just another ordinary day - that everyone who perpetuated the silly 2012 cult will take a step back and not jump on the next doomsday bandwagon.

I have visited this site many times over the past year. Even though I have read a lot of information some I have agreed with and some I haven't, this is the first thread that has ever made me hit the subscribe button and actually join the site. I remember the Y2K thing, I remember my mom yelling at me because I threw away left over fast food ketchup packages, she was saving them in case we needed them when Y2K hit. I'm pushing 40 years old, i have two children ages 15 and 9 both girls. And now it's their generation that's facing the 2012 threat. I just want to state my own beliefs and if I'm understanding the site correctly I should be able to do this. I'm not one to jump on a conspiracy bandwagon. I believe whatever happens is going to happen and there isn't anything us little peons can do about it. I do believe that something is coming or should I say something is going to happen. WHEN I have no clue and I'm note sure I want to know when and where some life altering event is going to occur because then I would spend my remaining days preparing and worrying rather than living. But to many strange things are going on in the world today for there NOT to be something going on. Maybe it is the effects of planet X, or the NWO taking control,Maybe God is going to come and on his little white cloud and shinning light and take his "special" people to heaven, or maybe aliens are going to return to earth. Personally I don't care either way.
I grew up in the country. I have attempted to raise my children with the same morals that I was raised with. My 9 year old watched the movie 2012 and started asking questions, "mama is this really going to happen?" I looked into her scared little blue eyes and said "I don't know baby, but it could." I explained that it's not something that a person can dwell on or they simply get consumed with the idea and eventually go crazy. but at the same time certain things can't go ignored. I explained that there are a lot of different beliefs and she would have to choose one day what she believes in her heart. I told both my kids that the world is changing and we never know when something may happen. A tornado could rip through our house tomorrow, an earthquake could hit, tides could rise and flood everything. It was me sitting down and talking with my kids that put their minds at ease. They feel confidant that they can talk to me about it. And if a few certain kids are talking about killing themselves because they are scared that the world is going to end, then in my opinion that falls on the parents and perhaps a child that was a little unstable to begin with. If I don't want my kids watching something I don't care if its on discovery or disney, I'm the parent, i walk over and turn it off. I monitor what my kids do on the internet (their computer is in the main room visable to all) and they know they can come talk to me. If i don't have an answer then we get on the smart box called the computer and find an answer together. I'm not going to hide other people's views, beliefs and takes on life from them because it may scare them, thats a load of _____ (you can fill in the blank). I teach them to listen to other people's opinion, learn from it and draw their own conclusions.
so yes my children know about the 2012 theory, they know about the NWO, and everything that goes along with it including the fact that nothing bad may ever happen. And you know they aren't scared because they feel informed about whats going on. It's all in how it's presented to them. I hope as my first post that I haven't stepped on anyone's toes and pretty much stayed on topic. thank you for listening

reply to post by ToppDog


I couldn't agree more. I'm the adult child of a US Marine. The motto we lived by prepare for the worst but hope for the best. We have always learn to be prepared for whatever may come our way. No matter if you believe the 2012 theory there are alway natural disaster going on that every one needs to prepare for. As I learned first hand with hurricane Rita, you can't count on FEMA to swoop in and fix everything. You have to be self reliant.

I have a different memory of New Years Eve 1999. I was a dispatcher for a large law enforcement agency at the time. I, along with several other dispatchers, sat in an off-site facility that was acting as a back-up dispatch center. This was for the remote possibility of our main dispatch center crashing. The thing was, some of our core servers were old and had BIOSes that could potentially cause time-stamping issues with our computer aided dispatching software. Guess what? It did - this, despite the preventative software solutions put in place.

So, from playing games in the warehouse and eating chips, our small backup team ended up having to dispatch for a major metropolitan area. Granted it was for only 2 hours or so but the problem was compounded by the spike in volume of calls for service. I learned very early on, from a practical point of view, that perception is reality. Period. The public was reacting to the idea that something ill-fated was going to occur.

Reality is usually easy to deal with from a "problem/solution" point of view. Any engineer would probably agree. But bring in intangibles like societal views, superstitions, political dogma, and religious convictions and well now... you've got yourself a firecracker with more than one fuse.

While I agree with the OPs viewpoint of "can't wait 'til it's over". I don't think their "warning" holds any weight. In the end, it will only serve to provide further reason as to why things went badly on Dec. 21, 2012. The date now stands as a symbol. And symbols can hold any meaning to the person who regards it at all. This includes, ironically enough, the OP themselves.

My concern for 2012 is not that I believe some entity may appear in the skies above or that one of the apocalyptic horsemen will begin the gallop of judgment. But rather that others believe it. An "idea" is good to have. It has flexibility and can be open to discussion and change. But a belief system - well, one can't argue how many wars have started because someone had a belief.

reply to post by LiveForever8


I thought your post was very well thought out and made serious good points. But you se the reason for 2012 being in the minds of children I don't believe is to blame of anyone that attends these types of websites or engages in these types of information. TPTB control the flow of modern, average, and basically weak minded peoples thought process. If the average guy in the street, or the average kid in school is mentioning 2012 and not something like the satanic gestures in a Lady GaGa video, then it is not the conspiracy realms fault for this.

They know about it, ask about it, because they are supposed to. They for whatever reason, are meant to have the idea of this in their minds. It's all mind control. Just like the average person knows about Charlie Sheen being fired, they know or will very soon no doubt know about 2012. Hell when they make movies spending 300 million dollars on it, then you know they are serious. Of course I feel bad for the children who are scared by this. I wish like you it would stop, and basically go away. Unless of course there was some sort of truth to the end of the world in which they should do something I guess but I like you am sure the world will not end.

However, I am sure that this is not done by mistake, and that there is an agenda, that is much more than just making money, behind the entire thing. I don't know what it is. I don't know why fish by the hundreds are dying, I don't know why airports are having to adjust their equipment due to pole shifts, I don't know why birds are dropping dead all along fault lines. Does that mean something is actually going to happen. Maybe it is. Maybe some of us don't have the ability in our minds to accept it and no matter what will reason it away one way or another. I mean if it were true, what could we do about it? Nothing, which I guess is why some of us will never be able to believe it no matter what until it actually happened.

But lets say the world doesn't end, which is more likely because the Illuminati (TPTB) whatever you want to call them, always and I mean always lies to you. They do run Hollywood, they do run the movies, they run the History Channel. I don't care if you believe that or not I could make a thread proving it and I probably will. But they do, and if they are telling you, end of the world in 2012, they are lying and doing something else at the same time. What something else could they be doing you ask? I have a little theory, but I have allot of good theories, but this is the one I'm going with right now.

I have to use 9/11 as an example to set this up properly. What I believed happened on 9/11 on a symbolic level. I believe the "twin towers" represented to those in the know the two pillars of Salomon's Temple. In the ritual rights you have to symbolically walk through the pillars, ascend up the "staircase" into the "light". The pillars then come down representing the death of the old you and the birth of the "enlightened" you. Or in other words, the destruction of an old order and the birth of a new one. The towers were brought down to tell those in the know that the old order had been destroyed and we were now in the days of a New Order.

Now apply the same logic to what the 2012 movie and The History Channel are telling you. The world is going to end on Dec. 21 2012. I apply that to mean that this will be the actual time when the Old Order will forever be gone, and that from that point forward we will be in the New World Order system. So anyone who doesn't know what a New World Order is? They will by that day. Everyone will. And the world "as we know it" the government systems we have had, the police we thought were there to protect and "serve" all of these fantasies that most on a website like this already know about. Everyone will know, and we all, and I mean all the people of this world, weak minded or not, will be living this reality.

What will they do to make sure everyone "wakes up"? I don't know, maybe we're watching some of it now while they are busy replacing all the dictators in the middle east. We are watching it as it happens and soon we will be feeling it. I don't know what they got planned, but they have something. And we're all being "conditioned" with mind control for it. This is indeed something that like you said, I wish people would just stop. But they won't, because there not supposed to, these people know what they are doing.

Ever since the day I heard about the world coming to an end in 2012 its been my number one worry. But now that ive done my research I am no longer scared. The mayans never said the world was going to end in the first place. 2012 is The Return of Quetzalcoatl www.youtube.com...

I didn't have time to read all of the comments, but I assume there were enough I.T. people around here to tell you that Y2K was a very big issue, but was ultimately taken care of in plenty of time. I was early in my IT career at the time working for a telecom technology company, and I had to remote into our client's systems in various countries to install Y2K software patches. Had we not done so, the systems would not have functioned after the new year.

As for poor little eight year old kids torturing themselves with visions of planets slamming into Earth, or a New Age love fest of amazingly boring proportions, I say welcome to the club. I am almost 40 years old, and I grew up with nightmares of nuclear mushroom clouds as a 70's and 80's kid. God forbid our children be faced with their own mortality or existential questions. Perhaps if we coddle them a little more they will start going nuts, feeling entitled to having the world handed to them for free, and growing up as useless little flakes. Oh wait, that is already happening with a lot of kids. Blame the parents who let their kids watch and do whatever they want before you come here and blame adults for discussing 2012.

As for 2012, it is likely that nothing at all will happen. However, one has to find it interesting how some ancient cultures seemed to find this general time period we are living in now interesting. I got sucked into the mystery of this subject years ago because I really enjoy all things alternative, as well as ancient cultures. Yes, much of it has been transformed into marketing of New Age spirituality, and survival products, so I understand the frustration it may bring you. I feel the same way about Valentines Day each year.

At the end of the day (or the world), the whole thing is a lot bigger than simply pining for some super-apocalypse. The big question of WHY people find 2012 interesting is compelling. My guess is that we are all well on our way to realizing that it is ok to be completely and utterly disenchanted with this failed experiment we call society today. No, that is not a misanthropic slam, but perhaps a wake up call to realizing that we did it all wrong, and we can still change things, at least to some extent.

Let's face it, many of us who hang out on sites like this are, at the core, unhappy with the version of reality we humans have been dealt. We hate our jobs, working largely for soulless corporate machines who only know the bottom line. We are noticing that all the crap we buy loses it's shine only days later, and never brings any lasting happiness despite what the TV commercials told us. We resent a failed capitalist system which exists today mostly as greed. We want more time for ourselves, and a sense of creating our own destiny rather than being locked into someone else's well thought out execution of a marketing plan called "the Perfect Life" or "the American Dream".

I used to think I was a bit strange to look at ancient cultures, and even modern day primitive peoples, and wish I lived a simpler life like this. Remember, we got to where we are today very, very quickly, and we really haven't had time to adjust as a species. I think the whole thing has made most people very schizo, and how could it not? Today, we have one foot in the technological singularity, and one foot in our prehistoric caves, eating today's kill.

There is the very real aspect of society seeming implode. We also get the feeling that larger wheels are turning against us for some dreadful plan we can only imagine, at least that is what our government tells us. There is a possibility that 2012 will be a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts, as perhaps someone or some organization will use this built-in doomsday date for their own agenda.Fear seems to be our main driver these days.

I don't know what 2012 is, but it IS something. At the very, very least it is people asking questions and taking a peak behind the curtain. Next year this will take a fever pitch, and perhaps more people than ever before in history will be asking questions about where we are, how we got here, and who is pulling our strings. Whether there will be some spiritual/intellectual shift in humanity, a world changing destruction, or nothing at all, remains to be seen.

My small intro:

I agree with one point the author made. "Believe what you will, I don't much care"...

The problem with this world that makes it so easy to be influenced is that the society looks towards "official" sources with fancy seals and emblems to deliver the "truth" to them.

Some people live by the notion that "if it's in a book, it's true".

The younger generation believes that "if it's in Wikipedia, Google, Yahoo, or AOL, it's true"

My Point:

The problem in this world is that no one is willing to do the research themselves. The "unchallenged" literature and information that is presented and readily available on the internet, has killed the will of the people to go out and explore the world. Instead of travelling to the Mayan cities, they read about them on a popular internet source.

Thus, this 2012 thing is emphasized and given momentum by the fact that it is constantly being morphed, yet becoming more and more available through so many different social networking sites, and databases that allow user editing, that the mind gets tangled to the point of depression just reading all the doomsaying...

My closing:

I can only hope that one day we are struck with a massive EMP so that people will again, sweat and bleed to get the information they were so exposed to via the internet and through other false networks. I know that these technologies were originally designed to keep us informed and keep us knowledgable of the world around us without having to put ourselves in danger, but it has become easily manipulated and the primary means for control of the masses...

Originally posted by LiveForever8

On the comments page of this site, a mother of a 7 year old said:

I have a 7 year old that happened to see a documentary on the history channel that scared him so bad, that he became depressed and began to question the meaning of life. He is 7 years old. This nonsense is scaring our children - it must stop immediately. I found this website and tried the best I can to explain to him it was all a hoax.

In order to make some money, several 'authors', 'scientists', video producers, and, in select cases, even the History Channel have churned up an international hoax, which is scaring young people, children, to the point where they are talking about suicide, or questioning the meaning of life.

2012 Hoax

1. It's about time a generation begins to question things that are happening in this world. What's so wrong about a child asking about the meaning of life? It's that we can't answer it, and nobody wants to face the question or the infinite philosophical debate. Most of today's working class never asked the questions, making 7 year olds more enlightened than their parents. Maybe parents should take an interest, do the research, and ask questions with their children.

2. I haven't paid a single penny to anyone that talks about 2012. YouTube, Yahoo! Answers, and ATS are free. I also watched the movie 2012 online for free.

reply to post by boncho


Hi, and thanks for replying to me.

No offence intended below....

Firstly, signing up recently makes you a Newbie, even if you were reading the site in 2011. Second, I keep reading you saying 2012 is all garbage.. my own words coz I am too lazy to go back to get quotes.. and in doing so you have labelled people with various derogatory terms.. which is what a lot of Newbies do until their Manners start to work for them.

You have only offered a very strong Opinion, and you have continued to berate us all with it.

The links to cult deaths does nothing to support the assertion that people are going to kill themselves before the end of 2012, or that kids are Seriously frightened because of a movie, or that the whole scenario is Garbage. All it did was show information about a bunch of subjugated Followers who topped themselves.

You have claimed the entire 2012 scenario is wrong, so you need to offer some sort of proofs for that assertion.

What I see, and have been observing for a lot of years is the steady increase in earthquakes and other natural disasters as we pass each decade. Now I know some people can pull out charts to show this is wrong, and others can pull out charts to show that it is correct.. we've seen them all here.

I've observed the growing madness in humanity as it also builds up.. and was building up well before anyone began to speak about 2012.

I've observed the Spiritual Growth that is happening, although with far too few people at the moment. I've digested information from a variety of ancient and modern sources that shows major change is happening now... and we know the only Constant in this Universe is Change.

What this leads me to is an understanding much like the Hopi people's that the Earth has its own massive cycles and every so often some planetary alignments indicate where we are in that cycle.. as happened in 1998 according to the Hopi. They said it indicated we were approaching the major changes in this part of Earth's massive cycles.. and I have to agree with them.

What is happening... all things at the same time. Spiritual Growth is happening, Earth's natural disasters on the rise is happening, the madness in humans is growing, the roads to larger more inclusive Wars are happening, humans are still poisoning our environment in our pathetic attempt to strangle life off this world.

If major earth changes do not occur over the next 2 years, then humanity is in for one horrific downhill ride into something akin to Hell.. with no survivors. Hence why I prefer to hope that the major earth events continue to build to its climax so that the majority are wiped off the face off the planet and the survivors can build anew following a different direction to what we have been doing for the past 10,000+ years.

I do not see 2012 as being nothing.. nothing.. nothing.. WHAM!! .. end of the world and everyone is dead. I do see a long term build-up leading to some sort of Climactic period that will have major effects on how humans live on this world... and I see that as a massive Positive.

Just so you know... we don't have to feed the starving and fix the world's problems in order to Awaken spiritually.. for in fact, those who have been Awakening now understand that we must Allow things to reach a natural conclusion otherwise we doom humanity to having to maintain the current mindset of Might is Right... which is the cause of human suffering for the past few millenia.

So there is not an either OR scenario being played out.. it is all things at once, all coming to a head so to speak in order for us to develop more effective ways to live Here. And to experience the world in this stage of it's cycle provides us a chance to really think about and begin to create what we want for Humanities future.. if we are to have a future at all.

/rant

Like I just posted in another forum here. OP can't you see the signs of the times? The USA is taking an unprecedented poke at our civil liberties. There is a reason this whole terrorism thing can now be applied to normal Americans. Mind you I don't know what UFOs really are, but so many sighting that can't be explained,dead birds dead fish. earthquakes,wikileaks,uprising all over the world. Granted I don't believe in the negative aspects of 2012 that been put out there. How many ancient prophecy's do we need to get the point something huge is gonna happen in this world. I for one welcome the positive aspect of what all these ancient prophesy say about a golden age for humanity. Just encase I have my home in the woods up north stocked with lots of spam and powered milk

I also want to add,even if nothing happens like Y2K you gotta admit it's a great time to be alive.

Constantly I find the situation that people saying that nothing is going to happen don't actually know anything much about the 2012 theories.

Funny that.
Now I don't want to go making broad stereotypes but its really getting insane how often I see this.



Like many 2012 believers I began trying to debunk it for purpose of fear alleviation, but then I read a little too deep. (note: if you fear it then you most certainly have not found the truth)

Reading for a couple of hours doesn't make you an expert. And not many are willing to be your personal research servant either and lay it all on a platter for you.

I apologize if someone already mentioned this.... but didn't the myans say the world AS WE KNOW IT will end in 2012?

If that's the case then, it doesn't mean the world will end.... it's just the world as we know it will. For all we know aliens could land and become part of our every day lives.

*shrugs*

That's how i've always seen 2012 atleast....

reply to post by gabbermatt


Yeah they did say something to that effect.


Just a note to all; the word "world" also has extremely broad meanings.

The myans say it is the end of the fourth world and start or birth of the fifth. For example, this article/interview with mayan priest which I thought I just posted....

We are no longer in the World of the Fourth Sun, but we are not yet in the World of the Fifth Sun. This is the time in-between, the time of transition. As we pass through transition there is a colossal, global convergence of environmental destruction, social chaos, war, and ongoing Earth changes

......

"Anthropologists visit the temple sites," Mr. Barrios says, "and read the inscriptions and make up stories about the Maya, but they do not read the signs correctly. It's just their imagination. Other people write about prophecy in the name of the Maya. They say that the world will end in December 2012.The Mayan elders are angry with this. The world will not end. It will be transformed.

astrology.about.com...

If I said that "winter is coming to an end", this does not mean that all winters will end forever. If I said "the season is ending", this does not mean all seasons will end forever.

Many prophecies from religions state something to the effect of "the dark world of death, ignorance, unenlightenment, chaos, etc" is being destroyed and coming to an end to make way for the birth of spring/golden age.

I'm not to sure why you would kill yourself over that. But then again, we are still in the season of mass insanity and spiritual delusion. If anyone is scared of our messed up world ending then they need help. Furthermore, if anyone goes around criticizing people and saying that its "VERY dangerous" to inform people of positive change (despite it potentially including some birthing pains) then they also need to take a good look at themselves.

reply to post by movetovanuatu


good theory I as well believe this too could be the case

reply to post by polarwarrior

The myans say it is the end of the fourth world and start or birth of the fifth. For example, this article/interview with mayan priest which I thought I just posted....

How is this different from every other unfulfilled religious prophecy?

Y2K was a preemptive strike against 2012. It was entirely staged to illustrate to us that unfounded fears were/are ridiculous. When nothing happened, those who feared the event were reassured that all would be well, that catastrophes based on dates were FALSE. TPTB (The Powers That Be) have a long-view plan. Budgets are forecasted out 10, 20 years out. Do you think that the global elite that rule the world might project their plans out decades ahead...?

Y2K was staged to reassure people that fears about upcoming, dated events were/are unfounded. It succeeded BRILLIANTLY. Now, as our short-term memoried society enters the period of an upcoming 2012... we are *suggested* to think back to Y2K. And how nothing happened.

Prepare for 2012. Look, there is no certainty that it will mark the "end of the world" or any such things. 2012 is merely said to be a reawakening. Maybe it means that people around our globe simply WAKE UP to what is around them, to what is *going on* around them...? Maybe it means that we reach a milestone of sorts. Maybe it means more. Hopefully there will be no destruction of civilization and the like.

However, all of that being said... Y2K was a psychological operation on a global scale to CONDITION the masses to accept a momentous event in the form of 2012 (whatever that may be) **without** FEAR. And, you know what? Going into ANY situation without *fear* is a good thing. Frank Herbert (DUNE) and Lucas (STAR WARS) had it right when they spoke of fear. So, if the Y2K ruse helped harden us and prepare us to face disaster without fear, then it was/is a good thing.

reply to post by boncho

How is this different from every other unfulfilled religious prophecy?

The reason many prophecies from religions sound the same is because they are all talking about the same event! They each have different way to describe it or describe different parts, altogether you begin to get the picture of what might happen.

The event that all these religions speak of is just over the horizon, I don't know when and am not about to guess, but its coming. Something to take home from random people in the past who thought they knew the dates of these events is that people tend to get over excited and make an early guess, I think 2012 might turn out to be just another one of these, but that we will see it in the next decade.

reply to post by GhostLancer


Y2k and boy who cried wolf.

Peoples egos wont risk being fooled again. If 2012 were to come and go then TPTB will have turned many people off of end times prophecy for good.

The who knows, maybe it will catch them all off guard in 2013. I wouldn't rule it out, especially with the way mainstream and hollywood is promoting the date.

reply to post by Tayesin

Firstly, signing up recently makes you a Newbie, even if you were reading the site in 2011. Second, I keep reading you saying 2012 is all garbage.. my own words coz I am too lazy to go back to get quotes.. and in doing so you have labelled people with various derogatory terms.. which is what a lot of Newbies do until their Manners start to work for them.

Firstly, if you were reading this site 10 years ago, then you were here before I was congratulations. That is absolutely irrelevant. I have no idea whatsoever how that relates to this debate. Because you think you have better insight because (you believe) that you were here earlier than me, just shows that you rely on superficial means to get your message across.

Do you want to know why I call people out on bad information? Because this site and thousands of others are perpetuating bogus claims. They are not even looking for logical theories anymore, just ones that gain followings. And trust me, I can see the sycophantic, cult like dogma forming. Maybe it is the state of the world right now, but it dilutes all GOOD information that is really out there for us to find. The more crap info, the more crap you have to wade through.

I don't even understand this train of thought you are having = irrelevant.

You have claimed the entire 2012 scenario is wrong, so you need to offer some sort of proofs for that assertion.

Jesus Christ is the son of god and he flew up to heaven (his corporeal form) after being hung on the cross. And Moses parted the Red Sea and Noah built an ark with 2 of every animal.

Prove to me that is not wrong.

What I see, and have been observing for a lot of years is the steady increase in earthquakes and other natural disasters as we pass each decade. Now I know some people can pull out charts to show this is wrong, and others can pull out charts to show that it is correct.. we've seen them all here.

So since you have made a conclusion on that "information", please post your charts and explain why you think they are more valid than the others that contradict your theory. (Remember, I don't make any extraordinary claims about 2012, you do)

The only claims I have made is that the idea has been portrayed, like many others, as a scenario that will sell books, DVD's and other things. I have also shown how people use doomsday scenarios to manipulate people. My proof lies in human weakness and the people who exploit it. I have offered proof to my theory that 2012 is bunk. Now show me yours.

I've observed the growing madness in humanity as it also builds up.. and was building up well before anyone began to speak about 2012.

There was no similar madness during the Spanish Inquisition? There was none during WWI and WWII?

I've observed the Spiritual Growth that is happening, although with far too few people at the moment. I've digested information from a variety of ancient and modern sources that shows major change is happening now

You have only been alive for one generation, you do not know the "spiritual attitudes" of the past 5,000 years. Not everything makes it into the history books.

What this leads me to is an understanding much like the Hopi people's that the Earth has its own massive cycles and every so often some planetary alignments indicate where we are in that cycle.. as happened in 1998 according to the Hopi.

Jack climbed up a beanstalk and killed the giant.

What is happening... all things at the same time. Spiritual Growth is happening, Earth's natural disasters on the rise is happening, the madness in humans is growing,

This proof is in your head, otherwise you would have data to support this "belief".

If major earth changes do not occur over the next 2 years, then humanity is in for one horrific downhill ride into something akin to Hell.. with no survivors.

Based on your emotional feelings on the matter? It doesn't take a genius to figure out the world has issues. However, you cannot credit a change in public policy or the public in general as "spiritual enlightenment" it is cause and effect. If people make a free will choice to change the world they live in, it is their choice. And it surprises me not in the least that religious people would usurp peoples' free will action.

I do see a long term build-up leading to some sort of Climactic period that will have major effects on how humans live on this world...

These changes could happen in 2025, would you still credit 2012 for them?

So there is not an either OR scenario being played out..

Exactly, it's a blind faith, new wave religion, rife with all the dogma of all the others.

I've come to the conclusion that there are three type of 2012 believers, 1. Nibiru and the Annunaki, 2. Doomsday and 3. New wave spiritual quest.

Basically you are telling me you are of the third. While that is fine and dandy, the third group should move their discussion towards religion, it is a forum I dare not enter because I simple don't like unsupported "facts".

As far as the other two, there is no evidence supporting either of them. I tried to give the spirituality side of this a fair go but it is obvious it is a religious quest, that's not my deal. Good luck with your spirit.

*note: Since this is a religion, or quasi religion, I will try and phase myself out of the 2012 threads that deal with it as such. Everyone is entitled to their own spiritual beliefs. I misunderstood because people were portraying it as though it were fact. I understand now it is just a belief.