The 2012 Phenomenon (and why it is so VERY dangerous to perpetuate this nonsense...)

reply to post by LiveForever8


Its fair enough if you don't believe in it, but I wanted to make a few points on your post.

Firstly, not all 2012 theories are about doom and gloom - most of them are posiive. What you are referring to is the media hype specifically about the doomsday theories and this kind of media hype runs rampant in today's world. There is the same hype about the Middle East right now, Global Disasters, Young People roaming the streets at night, etc. So why single out 2012 theories?

Secondly, kids get scared by a lot of things, including (but not limited to) the very graphic images on TV, especially later in the night. Is the world ending in 2012 any scarier than believing Freddie Kreuger will jump out of your closet and kill you? Its generally accepted that parents don't let their children watch these things if they don't want them to be scared.

Thirdly, you don't give children enough credit IMO. Did it occur to you that they may have watched these shows and saw that idea confirmed in reality, which is what scared them? A lot of adults acknowledge the possibility of a global environmental disaster, so do you think children wouldn't pick up on that? Also in light of my point above, they see lots of scary things that don't make them depressed, so why 2012?

Lastly, at 7 years old I was questioning the meaning of life, so I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

Originally posted by Cecilofs
Did it occur to you that they may have watched these shows and saw that idea confirmed in reality, which is what scared them?

I have one question for you.
Where does this reality exist, in which an idea of a future event can possibly be confirmed?

Hi Boncho,

To reply effectively will make this very long.. apologies up front....

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Tayesin

 

Firstly, if you were reading this site 10 years ago, then you were here before I was congratulations. That is absolutely irrelevant. I have no idea whatsoever how that relates to this debate. Because you think you have better insight because (you believe) that you were here earlier than me, just shows that you rely on superficial means to get your message across.

Mate, you were abusing people like a Newbie, I pointed that out to you and you replied by saying you were not a Newbie because you had been reading the site since 2001.. so I responded to you.

Never did I say I Believe ANYTHING like what you now claim.

Do you want to know why I call people out on bad information? Because this site and thousands of others are perpetuating bogus claims. They are not even looking for logical theories anymore, just ones that gain followings. And trust me, I can see the sycophantic, cult like dogma forming. Maybe it is the state of the world right now, but it dilutes all GOOD information that is really out there for us to find. The more crap info, the more crap you have to wade through.

I don't even understand this train of thought you are having = irrelevant.

Bad information according to? Most of what you have said in this thread is only Your Opinion with little to back it up other than more of the same opinion. You won't know for sure if you are Right until early 2013.

What is "Irrelevent", and according to? You? Your Beliefs? Your Opinion?

I said..

You have claimed the entire 2012 scenario is wrong, so you need to offer some sort of proofs for that assertion.

You responded with a "make-wrong", an impossible reasoning that has nothing to do with you being the OP making claims and not supplying anything to back up those claims.. which is what people are supposed to do here at ATS....

Jesus Christ is the son of god and he flew up to heaven (his corporeal form) after being hung on the cross. And Moses parted the Red Sea and Noah built an ark with 2 of every animal.

Prove to me that is not wrong.

I said....

What I see, and have been observing for a lot of years is the steady increase in earthquakes and other natural disasters as we pass each decade. Now I know some people can pull out charts to show this is wrong, and others can pull out charts to show that it is correct.. we've seen them all here.

and you replied with a challenge.. cleverly worded it is too

So since you have made a conclusion on that "information", please post your charts and explain why you think they are more valid than the others that contradict your theory. (Remember, I don't make any extraordinary claims about 2012, you do)

Firstly, I haven't put forward ANY Theory, merely shared my Personal observations over the past 20 or so years.. so please don't try to make me fit into your little boxes of belief.

What Extra-ordinary Claims have I made for 2012? I don't see any I made in this thread.

The only claims I have made is that the idea has been portrayed, like many others, as a scenario that will sell books, DVD's and other things. I have also shown how people use doomsday scenarios to manipulate people. My proof lies in human weakness and the people who exploit it. I have offered proof to my theory that 2012 is bunk. Now show me yours.

And I did not disagree with you. I am fully aware of the shams in this world and their desired Lifestyles, but you must understand this is NOT Proof that "2012 is BUNK".

It IS proof only that like all things humans do, it revolves mostly around unbalanced ego and greed.

I said..

I've observed the growing madness in humanity as it also builds up.. and was building up well before anyone began to speak about 2012.

You replied.....

There was no similar madness during the Spanish Inquisition? There was none during WWI and WWII?

Did I say that? No I didn't. Please stop trying to force your view into my words. What I commented on was the growing madness.. I did not say when it began only that it was before anyone talked of 2012. The madness you refer to is the same madness I refer to, only I refer to it in this modern context as something I have observed growing.

I said...

I've observed the Spiritual Growth that is happening, although with far too few people at the moment. I've digested information from a variety of ancient and modern sources that shows major change is happening now

You replied....

You have only been alive for one generation, you do not know the "spiritual attitudes" of the past 5,000 years. Not everything makes it into the history books.

What do you know of Me? Nothing.

You do not know that I was born a freak.. from a very early age being able to tell people what was going to happen to them, able to see what others could not, able to recall details of previous lifetimes with ease, able to experience and understand a bigger picture reality that unfortunately so few can even imagine yet.. and you make a CLAIM about ME without knowing the first thing about me?

History books are written by the Victors, so we can never trust them to be an Honest retelling of much at all.

I said...

What this leads me to is an understanding much like the Hopi people's that the Earth has its own massive cycles and every so often some planetary alignments indicate where we are in that cycle.. as happened in 1998 according to the Hopi.

You responded with in such a way as to illustrate the problematic small thinking of Humanity, the very Limitations that keep us so Un-Aware.....

Jack climbed up a beanstalk and killed the giant.

So to you, Native American racial memories are simply Jibber-Jabber, akin to children's stories? Is this lack of understanding really your true colours?

Oh dear.. I said..

What is happening... all things at the same time. Spiritual Growth is happening, Earth's natural disasters on the rise is happening, the madness in humans is growing,

You replied with a smarmy retort based solely on small-mindedness, as per the standard fare for those who think they are superior....

This proof is in your head, otherwise you would have data to support this "belief".

So we see you are classing me as unworthy, likely crazy, just another nutter in the crowd, Yes?

I have No Beliefs, for all Beliefs are Limitations to what you can experience of bigger picture reality.

at the purposeful use of the word "Data"... you know anything non-mundane, not meat and 3 vegies type of thinking as I call it.. the physical world of small-mindedness.. does not yet have the ability to provide Data on anything it cannot observe or sense mechanically.. so that must mean everyone who Lives a Spiritual existence of direct experience is a nutter.. doesn't it?

It couldn't possibly mean that we humans really know very little yet with our fledgling Sciences because they have not evolved sufficiently to sense/detect/measure anything of a spiritual nature.

I said..

If major earth changes do not occur over the next 2 years, then humanity is in for one horrific downhill ride into something akin to Hell.. with no survivors.

You replied..

Based on your emotional feelings on the matter? It doesn't take a genius to figure out the world has issues. However, you cannot credit a change in public policy or the public in general as "spiritual enlightenment" it is cause and effect. If people make a free will choice to change the world they live in, it is their choice. And it surprises me not in the least that religious people would usurp peoples' free will action.

Emotional Feelings? Did I say I was having them? Pretty sure I was sharing my own personal observations again. Observations from a life of only 50 years so far this time... can you not extrapolate the direction of humanity and see fairly clearly the Probable Outcomes?

Yes, the world has issues that we do not have answers for, that we created willingly, that we do not really care about.. and the proof being that if we cared about these very serious issues we as a whole would make necessary changes immediately.. but we do not.. we go on like we know better and do not give one momentary thought to our great-great grand children's future... or even if they will have one after we posion everything we have touched for long enough to make it un-inhabitable.

I didn't claim change in public policy was "Spiritual Enlightenment".. in fact I never used those words in my replies to you.. so they must be Your Perspective again.. only with a negative slant on them.

I said..

I do see a long term build-up leading to some sort of Climactic period that will have major effects on how humans live on this world...

You then said...

These changes could happen in 2025, would you still credit 2012 for them?

Silly question, but, Yes it could happen in another time. Although, I personally doubt it.

And I doubt it due to what I have "Seen".. and you will love to hate this next bit.. I've been seeing Possibility and Probability since I was very young. Never, ever, has it failed me.. not saying it is ME.. saying instead the Information is always Solid. Because of this I must accept the possibility and then point out to others who are drowning in the Doom and Gloom mentality what the Positives are for us.

If the information is wrong then I can live with that... it will not worry me that anyone thinks I was wrong. It will worry me if another ten years passes and humanity has not made the necessary changes to insure some sort of long term future for us so that we don't join all the other Animal Species dying off.

I said something that was partially quoted..

So there is not an either OR scenario being played out..

You responded....

Exactly, it's a blind faith, new wave religion, rife with all the dogma of all the others.

I've come to the conclusion that there are three type of 2012 believers, 1. Nibiru and the Annunaki, 2. Doomsday and 3. New wave spiritual quest.

Basically you are telling me you are of the third. While that is fine and dandy, the third group should move their discussion towards religion, it is a forum I dare not enter because I simple don't like unsupported "facts".

I was talking about the two opposing camps in the "something will happen in 2012" groups.. because even though they agree something will happen, they fight over what it will be.. one side saying Only Spiritual Enlightenment and Ascension (New Agers and some Religionists) and the other saying Only earht changes (doom and gloomers).. neither seeing that it is all things at the same time.

Nice job of sticking groups into small Pidgeon Holes

I have told you no such a thing. You have filled in the blanks with your own Beliefs and perceptions, and then made claim that this is the Pidgeon Hole I belong in... that this is Me. And you did this because I simply Opposed Your Perception... that is all.. it's not a Crime.

Is it up to you to decide what each group should do with their discussions? No, I didn't think so. But since I know it is only Your Personal Opinion then I can forgive you for that slight.

And you continued..

As far as the other two, there is no evidence supporting either of them. I tried to give the spirituality side of this a fair go but it is obvious it is a religious quest, that's not my deal. Good luck with your spirit.

*note: Since this is a religion, or quasi religion, I will try and phase myself out of the 2012 threads that deal with it as such. Everyone is entitled to their own spiritual beliefs. I misunderstood because people were portraying it as though it were fact. I understand now it is just a belief.

Yep, no evidence from science in it's infancy yet huh. Oh well, better then to make general remarks to slight things one knows nothing about from direct experience.

You say you tried the Spirituality side of things... well it is obvious that you did not get far with it.. maybe Religion wasn't the right path to experiment with for you? Maybe you had the wrong Teachers? Maybe the Indoctrination you recieved form birth was far too strong for you to break free from the Cultural Mold. Maybe your clear mind and wit was too strong for you to overcome it's Superiority and Control like many other people?

This isn't Religion.. and what you have said in this entire thread is Only what You Believe anyway. No different to anyone else sharing their personal perceptions and Beliefs is it?

Phew.. made it through.. although I am so bored now you would not believe me if I expressed the deepest levels of it in a way you could understand.

Next time you start a thread, just remember how things work here.. You Make a claim, then as the writer of the Opening Post the onus is on you to support your view with data... not the other way around.

Sorry again for the length of this reply. Be well.

Originally posted by BrokenCircles

Originally posted by Cecilofs
Did it occur to you that they may have watched these shows and saw that idea confirmed in reality, which is what scared them?

I have one question for you.
Where does this reality exist, in which an idea of a future event can possibly be confirmed?

I meant the idea that a global disaster is possible and/or looking around and seeing the many, many horrors that exist around the world, which children can and will be exposed to:

In no particular order...Clearing of the rainforest, natural disasters, oil spills, murders, crime, police, locks, rapists, paedophiles, the news, war, famine, disease, cancer, bullying, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse.... They may not be exposed to these personally but they could hear about them through the media, overhearing conversations, playground conversations and from their parents. Some children will have personal experience of these things.

So, you are born into a world in chaos, then someone tells you maybe the world might end next year. What do you think when you are 7? Should we hide them away from the ugly realities of the world and pretend it can go on like this forever? Or should we tell them that yes, the world is in a bad way right now but in the future we can make it a better place and teach them how.

Better yet, put them in charge and have them tell us how its supposed to be - I can guarantee you they have a better idea than any of us here.

reply to post by Tayesin

You responded with a "make-wrong", an impossible reasoning that has nothing to do with you being the OP making claims and not supplying anything to back up those claims.. which is what people are supposed to do here at ATS....

He linked a website with plenty of videos to watch. I watched a few of them, I found his claims were supported.

As for the rest of it and your personal experiences and observations, I think they should be unrelated to 2012. Unless you had feelings about 2012 when you were young, before the craze was born. And if you had those feelings, I would want to see where you wrote them down as a young lad. To prove your claim.

reply to post by boncho

Next time you start a thread, just remember how things work here.. You Make a claim, then as the writer of the Opening Post the onus is on you to support your view with data... not the other way around.

If you notice, I haven't started any threads, because I figure it would be a five hour affair to research a subject before I post. If you want to knock the OP for posting this thread because it is lacking in insight, go knock the numerous threads that are in essence "OMG I Found Nirubu... Oh Looks Planet X is here... Planet X here today!... 2012? Undeniable Proof..." And when you open said threads it is nothing but fluff.

I see BS associated with 2012. So much so that legitimate discussion on the idea is pointless because of how much bad info is being injected into the debate. Anything remotely supporting the idea that their will be change in 2012 is based on spirituality and religious ideology, that's fine, not my deal. The OP I do not think was referencing the spiritual side of it, but mainstream has picked up on it and charlatans have exploited it. So where he is coming from is not way off.

There is nothing supporting a disaster in 2012, if by natural disasters, you think that there will be more earthquakes, strife, etc, then it could be 2012, 2013,2014.

.

reply to post by boncho

so that must mean everyone who Lives a Spiritual existence of direct experience is a nutter.. doesn't it?

I can show you how "small mindedness" has created some great things for humanity. I can also show you instances where "spiritual" people living a "spiritual existence" defrauded millions of people. Go read the book "psychic mafia".

You can read it here.

reply to post by Tayesin

Firstly, I haven't put forward ANY Theory, merely shared my Personal observations over the past 20 or so years.. so please don't try to make me fit into your little boxes of belief. What Extra-ordinary Claims have I made for 2012? I don't see any I made in this thread.

You have a theory, because you say everything is about to change, and you support that theory with your observations. Don't try to back peddle. You speak as statement of fact. Whether it be opinion or not.

All those who have been pointing out the build-up in the world toward some type of climax.. are speaking truth. The first one isn't happening, the second is.. you only have to have eyes and ears open to see that all around you over the past 20 years of changes as this build up gets into stride.

nd.. there has been a steady build-up in those seeking growth of Awareness... as per the New-Age Belief.. so that is happening, exactly as it should be in this timeframe.

One thing I am reminded of a lot lately concerning what comes after the demise of this system we live is this.... Nothing is birthed into this world without some pain.

We are approaching this timeframe.. not the end of the world, but, the end of how we go about living on this world. So even those with a basic knowledge to grow some foods will be far better off than those who seek it only from supermarkets... and the choice of which one you are going to be begins Now. In such scenarios there are always those who make it and those who don't. They come from different sides of the equation.. with some from Raider-mentality and some from Village-mentality. The first lot will eventually reduce their own numbers due to how they operate.. and the second will grow in co-operation.. especially if they give freely to raiding groups in order to be left alone for a while.

These sound like prophetic claims to me, or if you prefer extraordinary claims. Be that as it may, when you have the writings of your mentor ready for public release I would be interested in reading them. Something like that is much more valuable than your 'observations' of the past twenty years.

Greetings. I think that the changes associated with the so-called 2012 phenomenon should not be dismissed. Even without the use of popular media like the tv and the internet, the warnings about 2012 were already available in the public libraries long before the topic became "viral". So after hearing the statement that 2012 is nonsense, I just can't help but call to mind the idea of following the ones who are seeking the truth, and not those who have found it.

Saying that we would be all right in 2012-2013 is a bit naive. There were a lot of environmental changes in the last few years and these should be taken into consideration. Planet earth is rapidly changing. Most astronomers even say that we could be hit by a huge rock from outer space anytime soon; it was not a matter of "if", but a matter of "when". The period we are in right now, relative to our position in space, is unusually stable. But having heard of reports that Jupiter just got two more spots, the sun spewing out ungodly amounts of radiation and the confirmation that the whole solar system is experiencing dramatic temperature changes in the recent years makes me wonder if that stability could last till the end of 2012.

If these changes were directly or indirectly caused by the sun, which is highly likely, then the Mayan calendar's claim that an end of time (not an end of all life) could be possible, simply because the calendar was based on sunspot cycles. What time is being spoken of could be anything. The time of temperate weather coming to an end? The time of increased volcanic activity? Who knows? I sure as hell hope that it won't be a bad scenario. But one thing is certain: I won't be a sitting duck in the next two or so years. I try to stay informed as much as I can. It is not a bad thing to plan ahead. Earth is changing rapidly and we must do what we can to adapt.

If you want more factual information related to 2012, please see my thread -

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's too much information to continue reposting so have a look for those who are interested.

~Namaste

reply to post by LiveForever8


My Aunt worked with many computers to recalibrate them, way before it hit the news. So some of it was real.
The hoax peopel did make money for from nothing. nAs far as 2012? I'll say it is anyones guess.
Many people like to discount our predecasors. They had more knowledge and were more connected to the Earth and stars than we ever will be again. The date might be off, but I do believe it probably will happen in my lifetime.

Hi Boncho,

reply to post by boncho


Dang.. you are correct.. my mistake about you being the OP. That'll teach me to write posts early in the am instead of sleeping.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Those fraudsters are not Spiritual People living a Spiritual Existence.. they are only Fraudsters despite their Belief-System. People who live REAL Spiritual experiences are not out there ripping anyone off, and, are a very small minority.

No.. I say everything has been and is changing.. not it is about to change. Big Difference. And Observations shared are not a Theory.

"Sound like prophetic claims" .. this would be the only portion anyone could call prophetic in any way... "We are approaching this timeframe.. not the end of the world, but, the end of how we go about living on this world."

The rest is sensible information about how to be better prepared for such things and some observations about how humans would react in such situations... which we can extrapolate from many recent events in the world.

I would like to find some sort of equal ground, something that we can agree on. But I do not think it possible because you are Sure nothing is or will happen, and I am waiting to observe if it conforms to what I have already "Seen".

In which case I still hope you are well.

reply to post by Tayesin


I can see that you are a spiritual person with a connection to the world and the events therein. To me that is a type of thinking that unless is asked to be debated should probably be left alone. And it is something that I would probably not be the best person to comment on it, because I do not completely understand and do not wish too. I also do not wish to challenge people's spiritual beliefs. So I will leave it at that and I wish you the best.

No ill intended.

reply to post by LiveForever8

Like another poster said it earlier, Y2K was a man made issue. 2012 well, just look at all the earth changes, things that are happening in our solar system, our sun. No body can really put a handle on those things, it could be just a cycle that takes place every 26 thousand years. The big question is, how severe will these changes eventually get, where and how far will it take us? Will it be destructive, catastrophic, or will the changes take place moderately? That we don't really know, and will have to wait and see.

On the other spectrum of life, freedom, politics, social systems, etc. I think we are in for some rude awakenings.
Life is about to change from what we have been use to having, especially in the free world, the industrialized and technically advance societies. And don't expect it to get better, unless your a filthy rich B__tard, and belong to the elite club.
Life will change as you know it. You can count on that.

A lot of people replying to the OP seem to think he is advocating censorship and are comparing talking about 2012 to talking about the many evils that occur in the world which may adversely affect children. There is one vital difference though ; 2012 is nonsense, pure and simple. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence and the will and ability to research it can see that. It is wrong to convince yourself and others of something so patently false, especially when people, CHILDREN, become so scared by it that they become suicidal. How can anyone argue with that? (That's not an invitation by the way, I won't read any arguments against this as I have heard them all before by people more deluded and certainly more intelligent than anyone deciding to respond.)

Originally posted by sdunkin2003
A lot of people replying to the OP seem to think he is advocating censorship and are comparing talking about 2012 to talking about the many evils that occur in the world which may adversely affect children. There is one vital difference though ; 2012 is nonsense, pure and simple. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence and the will and ability to research it can see that. It is wrong to convince yourself and others of something so patently false, especially when people, CHILDREN, become so scared by it that they become suicidal. How can anyone argue with that? (That's not an invitation by the way, I won't read any arguments against this as I have heard them all before by people more deluded and certainly more intelligent than anyone deciding to respond.)

That's your opinion. Ours is different.

Freddie Kreuger was made up. He was pure fantasy. He scared the # out of kids when they were too young to watch it (Their parents let them anyway). But I never heard of kids getting so scared they wanted to kill themselves. That would only happen if the idea seemed to be reflected in reality. Which the 2012 end of the world scenario can be construed to be, because of the # state of the world today.

But once more, most 2012 theories are positive, so you are talking about something completely different, which is the fear-mongering and scare tactics about only one of the possible interpretations, most of which are positive.

I happen to believe something good will happen in 2012 and that all this doom is disinfo for the fact that good aliens will arrive and set earth free from the clutches of the evil ones.

Originally posted by Cecilofs
That's your opinion. Ours is different.

Ours?? So what you are saying is- sdunkin's opinion is his/hers only and nobody else shares this opinion? but your opinion (ours) is the opinion shared by everyone else besides sdunkin?

I think you should have written your comment in this way-
"That's your opinion, MINE is different."

I personally agree with sdunkin, and I have no idea who this "our," that you mention, really is.
^^^This is my opinion.

Originally posted by Cecilofs
But once more, most 2012 theories are positive, so you are talking about something completely different, which is the fear-mongering and scare tactics about only one of the possible interpretations, most of which are positive.

It is also my opinion, judging by this comment, that you have missed the point in the OP. Here is a quote, directly from the OP.

Originally posted by LiveForever8
"This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail."

So actually, sdunkin was talking about something that is the point of this thread. You are the one who is talking about something completely different. The OP says nothing about stopping any prediction of a positive nature.

Also, as you said it yourself, it is all just theories. They are not all positive though. These other one's, are the theories that do declare an inevitable doom to occur within the year 2012. The big problem, is that so many people are discussing this, that many do not realize it is all just theories. Many believe it will happen for sure.

What I personally get from the OP, is not even entirely isolated to the 2012 predictions. The 2012 predictions are just a majority of the prophecies of doom. There are others (May 21 being one of the soonest). This statement, in my opinion, is the most important statement in the OP.

"put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end"

It has been stated that Y2K was a human problem. True. On the other hand the 2000 planetary alignment was not a human problem and the world was not destroyed. In 2003 the close approach of Mars was not a human problem and nothing happened.

I believe 2012 is a human problem. The only thing happening is the end of the long count calendar. That calendar was human invention. All of the other issues that have been shoehorned or attached to the calendar are unrelated to the Mayan calendar.

A fair number of hoaxers have latched onto the calendar and are or did promote their false claims by linking to the calendar. People have wasted time and effort and money on all of the doom and gloom events that "destroy" the Earth every other year or so.

The claim that 2012 is also about hope and enlightenment and a consciousness shift (whatever that is) is just as bad. There are people sitting back waiting for the "Easy button" to magically give them the boost they need without lifting a finger.

reply to post by BrokenCircles

Ours?? So what you are saying is- sdunkin's opinion is his/hers only and nobody else shares this opinion? but your opinion (ours) is the opinion shared by everyone else besides sdunkin? I think you should have written your comment in this way- "That's your opinion, MINE is different." I personally agree with sdunkin, and I have no idea who this "our," that you mention, really is. ^^^This is my opinion.

Maybe you should pay more attention.

He said our because the other poster said this,

A lot of people replying to the OP seem to think he is advocating censorship and are comparing talking about 2012 to talking about the many evils that occur in the world which may adversely affect children. There is one vital difference though ; 2012 is nonsense, pure and simple.

Do you get it now?

The big problem, is that so many people are discussing this, that many do not realize it is all just theories. Many believe it will happen for sure.

The big problem is, that there are some fanciful men that are arrogant controlfreaks. You, nor any other member of this site get to control what others members post, discuss, think or believe.

If these posts are within the rules of the site´s T and C, there´s nothing you can do about it, and you should not even want to.

All I see is alot of whining done by people that don´t like other people talking about a certain subject.