Lack of feminine characteristics...

My mother could tear you new aswhole by giving you the eye, and comands the room when she enters it and still remains feminine.
It's natural within nature, What is feminine If nature say's to a women Ok have children. for some women it is a very strong switch one she may not ignor It's nature.

People don't see nature as natural around them, it's too simple too obvious, and guild you whether you realize it or not. There is a balancer within nature.

Originally posted by JonoEnglish

Originally posted by mutantgenius
reply to post by etherical waterwave

 

I tend to it 24/7 for years and then nurture it, feed it, clothe it, clean up after it for the next 15 years.

That's what you used to do with the husband, though that is a lifetime commitment.

Actually, I do take care of my husband (well, boyfriend of 12 years). I am very traditional and still believe in family and male/female roles. I do not, however expect a man to protect or provide for me. My life is my own. I do not require a fairytale wedding, or assinine symbols of love and devotion. I enjoy cohabitating with a like minded person who shares the same values as me. To top it off, we are sexually attracted to each other and are happy living a monogamous lifestyle.

I really don't have many nice things to say about women on the whole, but there are exceptions. I am currently having a discussion on another thread with a lot of women who I feel share my values. On the other hand, in my day to day existence over here in NY I interact with some cruel, selfish, egotistical, brash, bratty women. Women who wish to have all of their freedoms, yet still demand all of the "traditional" things from men. These poor women are so confused. The ones with children are very poor parents and chose to chase men at the detriment of their childs emotional and social development. Like I said in my first post though, it's not just the women, the men are playing these games too.

I think people need to stop reacting on negative emotions and looking to see what they can get. Love and harmony are acheived through giving. The recieveing is just a nice little payback for ones good works. Women can still provide to society in their traditional roles without becoming serving maids to men and men can continue with their rolls without being a slave to a womans whim.

reply to post by Yeah-Alright


Well, you have definitely made excellent points of which I cannot argue against.

In order for many women to compete in such a "failed" environment such as this one, they have to adopt male attributes in order to survive the business world.
1. They must become aggressive (which is a double edged sword) As soon as they do become aggressive and reach out for what they want, men call them bitches.
2. They must dress differently. Take a good look at Hillary Clinton, and you'll see what I'm saying. (By the way, I don't like that woman.)
3. They must make additional sacrifices which goes against their own biology. (Are you going to stay at home and take care of your children, or, are you going to sacrifice your time for the company and be a team player?)

This country is completely backwards in every respect. Its unfortunate that for a woman to have a career, she must destroy everything that she is to participate in the male-dominated business game.

Personally, I see your point and it is noted.

I personally think it's two things, number one it's men and women evolving differently because of differently life styles and influences. These life styles and influences are possible because we live in a more open society than we used to.

If you are a woman living in a world where you need a strong, aggressive, dominant male to survive, it would only makes sense that genetically more strong, aggressive, dominant males are conceived.

In the same sense, a strong, aggressive, dominant male might only seek out a mate who is more passive and submissive. If a woman needed a man to survive, then it would stand to reason that more passive and submissive women passed on their traits to the next generation.

After thousands of years of this it seems obvious why the stereotypical woman is quiet and submissive, while the stereotypical man is strong and aggressive. That system worked pretty well for perpetuating our species.

Women no longer need men to protect or provide for them. Being a strong, aggressive, dominant male is not really a trait many women put any value in anymore.

Because of this it's my opinion that men are becoming less like men in the traditional sense. A strong dominant man may have the same, or even less chance of getting a mate than a scrawny passive man. So the traits that are now being passed on no longer match what used to be useful.

Also consider birth control and the increase in the mother surviving child birth. When every sexual encounter meant possible pregnancy and/or death, women were far more picky than they are now. Which also explains why men are seen to be more sexually aggressive. The impact of a man having sex is almost nothing for the man, where as having sex for a woman means possibly dying in child birth, or having a child they have to raise for years. So the main sexual characteristic that gets passed down for men is being aggressive, and being more choosy for women.

As a society we have changed quite a bit, and I think this has facilitated the genetic changes that are going on. As what becomes socially acceptable changes, I think our genetics will follow. I really do believe that the characteristics for mean and women are changing

Another thing is gay people. People always say "Being gay can't be genetic, because it wouldn't get passed down if they are mating" Which I disagree with, as society traditionally tells men it's not OK to be gay, so they live a fake life as a straight man. That trait is still present, so it gets passed down, to another person that will act straight and reproduce just because it's the acceptable thing to do. I don't think there are more gay men today, I just think more of them are actually open about it and accepted.

reply to post by mutantgenius


As long as you are happy in your relationship, that's all that matters really.

I think the thing is, allowing women to choose what they want in a relationship, rather than society, man or other women dictating the terms of how they should be.

Like I say, in my early years life was very different for women, in my area anyway.
The women stayed at home and it was rare and often looked down upon if the woman went out to work. The man didn't get involved in the care for their children and as for a man changing a nappy!!! Well, that was just seen as odd! Males wouldn't even be seen pushing the pram or pushchair in the street, again that wasn't manly.

reply to post by Yeah-Alright


I fully support the feminist movement, and women in general. One must know first of all that all women are not alike. When I met my first wife, she was a coward. Would not stand up to anyone, didn't know anything about finances, paying of accounts, or obtaining the best deal in a situation. She trusted the wrong people. I empowered her. The woman turned into a monster. When I left her for good, she was some odd $55,000 in debt, mostly credit cards, and defaulted on three car loans, and had taken out a telephone account in my daughter's name to avoid payment. She became so greedy that she could only see the next dollar.

6 years ago I met my current wife. Used to being controlled, and no having any money of her own, she didn't argue with me, and asked permission for everything.
I had to change that! First I made her master over the money, and after spending herself out just two times, she learned to budget better than I ever could. I taught her to stand up to me, argue with me, and that worked out too. She gets on the phone now and gets her way, and takes no guff from anyone. Yet she is sweet, caring, and loving, and still looks up to me for advice.

Do you see? The first wife was a monster, made that way by me, that second is a sweetie, also made by me. It takes a good woman to be an Empowered Woman, make no mistake about it. Be careful who you give power to, men, for some women will eat you. And don't blame the women either, men made them like this, and religion.

reply to post by JonoEnglish


Yes I am happy. Don't get me wrong now, although we both partake in our traditional roles, he fixes the cars and the computers, I do the cooking and the laundry, thats not to say that we are co-dependant. At my insistance he taught me how to change a tire, change the oil, follow a file path etc. I also do not use my life as a dictation for someone elses, like I said, my life is my own and for other people their life is theirs and thay can chose to do with it as they please. I feel that something is being lost in this movement though, women are perfectly capable of caring for themselves, as are men. The family unit is suffering tremendously though, in my opinion. That is what I find worrying. Also, the world may not continue on it's current path and I think there is alot to be said for continuing on with our perspective roles to a degree to keep certain knowledge and values within society, sort of like a fail safe just in case there is a regresiion of sorts.

reply to post by mutantgenius


I didn't mean to imply you weren't happy.

My relationship is kind of mixed.
I do all the decorating, fixing things that break, share in the household duties yet my girlfriend does any wiring of any electronic things, sorts out the compter and even does small jobs on the car. I haven't got a clue when it come to the stuff she is good at it. I just let her get on with it. It doesn't make me feel less of a man or her less of a woman. She is girly, wears make up, short skirts but can change a tyre and your brake pads if need be. Just don't get in her way when there needs to be a bit of strength involved. She gets there or finds a way.

As for the family unit. I see things like computers, tv, mobile phones as more harmfull to that. Kids tend to have more stuff to do in the home that takes them away from their parents.

I think it is embedded in childhood. My life experiences give me this opinion. For example.

My parents who are very traditional, are raising my niece and nephews. The niece and one nephew are twins, age 7, and one younger nephew 3. While the nephews literally get away with murder my poor niece is always being reprimanded and scolded for less. She is very smart, wants to be very athletic, also loves to care for animals and loves horses and dolls. Due to the difference in upbringing, she has begun to develop a rather thick skin, and a little resentment for her brothers. This has made her very competitive towards them, and I assume it will follow her into adulthood, if they don't completely break her will. She tries harder, never gives up, and strives at every turn to beat especially her twin at everything.

He on the other hand, as well as his brother, are a little spoiled and are being raised entitled just because of their sex. They give up if they don't win, throw temper tantrums if they don't get their way, and constantly fight each other for dominance.

I am no child psychologist, but it all looks pretty obvious to me. If they would just treat children with equality in expectation, they could develop without distain for the other sex. Especially the female.

I think loosing feminine traits comes from being forced to compete while under constraints of different expectations. The two cannot coexist. And what happens is that the females are forced to play the game, and give up those characteristics that which have only been in the way their whole lives.

Characteristics that are predetermined by society as weak, undesirable in thie work place, fall by the wayside. We should just learn to value all people and whatever skills they bring to the table. It is this competition that that makes us lose ourselves to the awful game.

I have to agree with the OP. I think some posters are missing the point.

First off, there is no one right way or model that any human, male or female, should follow. We should all strive to be ourselves, which aught to be somewhat unique from everyone else. We can contribute the most when we are truly ourselves.

Back to the OP. We have genuinely lost out thanks to the changing roles society expects for women.

Being demure, respectful, kind and nurturing does not automatically imply weakness. I would suggest that most women who can pull that off do so wittingly. Many of these women were de facto head of household without bluster and bravado. There is nothing more beautiful than a person who fulfills a role both with grace and skill.

I am fortunate to have grown up and known such women as a part of my family. Recently I perceived this same thing amongst younger Muslim women in a local school. Quiet confidence. I love that, in men too by the way.

Having complementary traits makes for a good relationship so long as it is voluntary and not forced. Think of it, I'll bet most of know more than one couple where it is the woman who "wears the pants" in the family. If that works for them, so be it. I do think that kindness looks good on people of every description tho.

*snip*

Really?

*snip*

I wouldn't say so, why do you ask? Are you?

reply to post by Yeah-Alright

I have noticed that females in a traditional male-dominated society are much more feminine in their behaviour and mild so to speak.

The same is true of any colonial society and other slave-based economies - servants are always subservient to their masters. I doubt the male servants would appreciate being described as "feminine."

But in western societies, ...females are having more of ego-related issues and there you may find more instances of 'spoilt brats'.

How many Western men do you and your friends have? ...Trust me, the ratio of "spoiled bratism" between the sexes is equal, if not more frequent on the male side.

Maybe it is because there is more freedom for females in the west and as human nature goes, they tend to take liberties of it.

You are probably right - I have noticed that freedoms, or the illusions of freedom, do encourage the "taking of liberties." For example, when I was younger and before the 2nd and 3rd waves of the women's revolution in the West, most Western men took awful liberties with women unless they had men to protect them. Now, that doesn't occur quite as often although the pendulum seems to be swinging back the other way.

This makes me wonder if as compared to past, there is a degradation of basic female characteristics, what it would be like in the future.

Are you saying "being feminine" is the only female characteristic that really counts?

...I would like to know what do the males think about it.

Well drat!

I spent all this time responding and turns out you're not interested in hearing anything I have to say! I am only a woman!

Are they fine with the fact that the females are becoming more aggressive, egotistical, money-minded and less 'traditional' in a way or there are those out there who still value those gentle qualities that in my personal opinion are very much valuable?!

Why are you here? In a free-thinking bastion of speculative thought? ...Only 2 possible reasons imho - 1. Researching an article or script, or 2. Cruising for a husband. Either way, good luck.

Let me just say that I think that some people mistake femininity with girly trappings. I think the two are very different...and geographic location and timeline are not the only factors. I will give you an example...Hashesput. She was one of the most successful Pharaohs in ancient egypt. She led armies....commissioned hundreds of building projects and established trade networks. Catherine the Great led two successful wars against the Ottoman empire, Bloody Mary was good at working over the irish. Tz'u-hsi was a whore who used treachery to become ruler of China...Queen Isabella encouraged the Inquisition and drove out the Jews, Moors and gypsies.....I could go on but my point is that at no point were women universally these delicate flowers that needed to be rescued from tall towers. There have always been those willing to grab life by the balls and take what they want.

I am a stay at home mother...I cook, clean, raise the kids and care for my husband. I also curse like a sailor, collect edged weapons, lift weights and have enough comics, figures and movie props to give even the biggest fanboys wood. And Im all woman. My hands are delicate, my skin soft, my breasts full and my voice a throaty contralto. I dont care about dresses or speaking softly or any other such nonsense that only seems to be there to keep men from getting too ruffled. Such delicate egos you gents have. From the weight room to the comic shop...I am always being made to feel the "no girls allowed" vibe and it only makes me more determined to insert myself. I command respect as a man would and while it kept my dancecard emptier than the other girls....it has made me very successful in business as well as interpersonal relationships with men. Nothing about my look is mannish but when I speak I know that it is my voice they are listening to, my eyes they are gazing at, because I have taught my counterparts how to treat me rather than trying to change myself in order to not make waves and fit their perceptions. Men dont have to do that....why should I?

Yup, this is a huge topic that doesn't get enough attention. The reason gender roles have been so distorted in Western society is profound and actually delves into metaphysics. It's another method of control. People who support the feminist movement are idiots or simply inundated.

Neither genders are fulfilled in Western culture. The social status game has also gone a long way to distort things. Thus, we no longer live with balance and integrity. Just because a women can move up the corporate ladder, does not mean she is happy or expressing her true potential, which is enormous and awe inspiring.

Here's what I'm talking about:
www.nityama.com...


These articles are from an expat who goes a long way to expose the social matrix, methods of control, sexploitation, propaganda, and gender manipulation in Western culture... especially the USA.
www.happierabroad.com...

It is a bit odd the whole situation imo. It also makes men change their role as well. I can see some women saying that they need to be the way they are because of how men are...sort of becomes a cycle. No need to mention the divorce rates in western countries. Our society and culture just couldn't handle a more "feminine" women, we're too materialistic, too focused on economic "productivity", and too much into consumption.

reply to post by Mayura


I don't understand what you are trying to say about women. (Yes they can be a bit of a mystery to me at times )

It's all about choice and opportunity. If you start taking that away from women then it's a bad thing. If you also put social pressure on women to behave in a certain way that is a bad thing too.

If a woman feels she wants to be a "traditional" wife, she can be. I'm sure most men wouldn't mind being waited on hand and foot when they get in from work.


I woudn't want that, I like a girl to be independant, do what she wants in life and I certainly don't want to marry or live with someone who acts like my Mum (even though I do love her, but I'm an adult and look after myself)

I refer you to this post, in my old thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Feminists are bitter women who have a deep-seated dislike, distrust, or hatred of men.

This either stems from a lack of physical attractiveness to men, or from troubled experiences with an important male figure in their lives, such as their father, or an ex-husband or boyfriend.

In actual fact, I find the ''all men are pigs'' feminists, despite being pathetic, to be preferable, as at least they are honest about their agenda and philosophy.

It's the other kind of feminists that have exactly the same beliefs and agenda, the ''wolf in sheep's clothing'' type, that are the ones who are worthy of the most scorn. They will pretend that they have a more reasonable line, and pay lip-service to wanting ''equality'', despite having all the same problems and beliefs that the more ''robust'' feminists have.

These are the feminists that largely incur my righteous wrath.

Another fact about feminists that needs to be pointed out is their actual anti-female philosophy. While their notorious anti-male agenda is widely publicised, any woman that goes against their narrow-minded warped ideology are viewed as ''Uncle Toms'', and irritate the indignant feminists !

A perfect example is when feminists whinge about society ''objectifying women''. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these women who are ''objectified'' in adverts and the like, exercising their free choice and earning a decent amount of money as models and actresses ?

Anybody who truly believed in women's liberation would fully support a woman having the full range of choices possible, which includes the personal choice of dressing up in skimpy clothing in male-orientated advertisements.

This really shows the feminists true colours and agenda, which is about power and control, and making everybody follow their strange views on how society is run.

They also dislike women being ''objectified'' because of jealousy. If the feminist is pretty or thin enough to make money in this way, then she doesn't want any other girl to be able to do so: ''Dog in the Manger''.

Rest assured, if feminists hadn't fallen out of the ugly tree, and knocked against every branch on the way down, then they would be the first in the queue to don a bikini and star in a beer commercial !

edit on 27-1-2011 by Sherlock Holmes because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Anttyk47


That's extreme feminism, as bad as male chauvinists.