Lack of feminine characteristics...

The feminist movement did little to strengthen femininity (which you would think it was meant to do). I mean this to say that it did little to strengthen the value of a woman's inherent qualities and abilities. While the ability for women to vote, have their voices heard, be part of the workforce, make money and take on positions that men traditionally dominated is good and liberating, yet it stripped away and devalued what is very important and vital to a well functioning society; namely mothers and homemakers.

Feminine strengths of nurturing, compassion, understanding, communication, gentleness, empathy, love, beauty etc. are all traits reflective of the inner self, home, family, core

Feminine weakness is when these qualities are traded for ego, judgement, aggression, dominance, competitiveness, detachment, vanity, lust. Traits reflective of the outer world DEVOID of the inner world.

The strengths of men have been taken up with the abandonment of true femininity, rather than integrating the positive strengths of both.

You reach the outer world of man through the inner world of woman. The disfunction comes when one is without the other, or one is valued over the other.

The inherent roles of women and true femininity are vital to the healthy foundation and functioning of society. We are the glue. When women abandon these roles and view them as weak, they are contributing to society's demise. While not EVERY woman's place is in the home, or as a mother we must consider carefully our choices ESPECIALLY when it involves bringing children into the world. I mention this because of how pervasive it is (at least where I am) that women have children then either go back to work full time three weeks after their child is born, or spend everyday shopping, with friends, at the spa, at the gym, while the children are left with a nanny all day. A woman doesn't show her strength when she CHOOSES to have children and then CHOOSES to have a job as well and relinquish her duties as a mother. (Note: I'm not referring to those that need to work out of necessity and survival)

I absolutely see women taking on the persona of which the OP described, and it has somehow become acceptable. Yet I don't see this as an issue of male vs. female dominant society. I see it as a systematic usurping of the values of family and the feminine. So what appeared to be the liberation of women, was actually a method of destruction of our foundation. Women need to realize strength doesn't lie in acting as men do, but rather embracing that which makes us women and demanding recognition of it's value and fundamental importance to...everything.

It all comes down to yin and yang and the balance that needs to be struck between the two. While women need to be assertive, stand up for themselves, have a voice, and be seen as capable, they at the same time need to value the natural qualities of the feminine. At the same time we see the need for men to embrace the feminine qualities of compassion, nurturing, love etc. within themselves while still maintaining the strengths which are inherent to them.

And lastly women dressing like whores has nothing to do with liberation, it has everything to do with feeling empty inside and feeling the need to be valued for something. And in this case it's the physical.

reply to post by kalamatas



You have hit the nail on the head with that statement. Even the last bit.

Originally posted by amazed
reply to post by hp1229

 

Just saying in response to your "penis envy"....

You forgot to cut and paste this..."From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia..The feminist psychoanalyst Karen Horney (ca. 1938).In Feminist psychology the terms womb envy and vagina envy".

Its obviously a WIKIPEDIA page where anyone can edit the content (mostly Feminists). Besides PSYCHOANALYST is a profession? WOW.

Have you been to different countries? Have you met women that are submissive without being beaten as you claim? They are submissive by nature and culture too. Do you think people beat women to submission all the time? Dont you think there are other ways that most of the world uses such as political power, money, social influence etc etc to put someone in their place ? I have seen them. You can satisfy yourself to some wikipedia article and feel good about yourself and laugh and judge any men that comes across in your day to day life but it does not address the way women are by nature. You cannot change that no matter what.

reply to post by kalamatas


Feminism didn't destroy the parent/homemaker role, corporate capitalism did that. The industrial revolution made possible the middle class one-income lifestyle. When those industries were rapidly bought out by private interests and the efforts of unionizing guilds were subjugated and usurped, then the nuclear family started to be disassembled.

While I find your post, for the most part, driven by chauvinism and a belief that you know what is best for others, I will say that you have something with the "feminist" movement being, in part, a tool to ultimately lower what is considered a living wage.

But, if you truly feel the need to have a home maker, I know many women are open to their men staying home and watching the kids.

Originally posted by StigShen

Originally posted by hp1229

Likewise here as well. Its how you treat a woman. Most of what I know is old fashioned but it works.

The women I know who are stable-minded and truly happy, have rejected the feminist agenda to live a happy and fulfilling life with a strong male. A man who is a strong leader, and the family's chief need not be a despot but he does have to rule.

True. In other words they like leadership and someone who can lead them in life too just the way some of the graceful dances are. It is not easy to lead but if you have a good leader, i'm sure women will not mind being led.

Originally posted by TigaHawk
reply to post by Yeah-Alright

 

It's because the women you're talking about have no place in today's society.

kind, gentle, and loving women get walked all over, leeched off by "users" (not in the drug sense) and taken for fools.

The kind of women that you miss - Simply just cannot survive society in this day and age without beign eaten alive.

What you've written here is a bit bothersome. I hope that's not entirely true...

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by StigShen

Originally posted by hp1229

Likewise here as well. Its how you treat a woman. Most of what I know is old fashioned but it works.

The women I know who are stable-minded and truly happy, have rejected the feminist agenda to live a happy and fulfilling life with a strong male. A man who is a strong leader, and the family's chief need not be a despot but he does have to rule.

True. In other words they like leadership and someone who can lead them in life too just the way some of the graceful dances are. It is not easy to lead but if you have a good leader, i'm sure women will not mind being led.

If your female counterpart was a good leader, would you allow her to lead you? Are you truly saying what you are saying because a vagina somehow makes leadership abilities invalid?

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by kalamatas

 

Feminism didn't destroy the parent/homemaker role, corporate capitalism did that. The industrial revolution made possible the middle class one-income lifestyle. When those industries were rapidly bought out by private interests and the efforts of unionizing guilds were subjugated and usurped, then the nuclear family started to be disassembled.

While I find your post, for the most part, driven by chauvinism and a belief that you know what is best for others, I will say that you have something with the "feminist" movement being, in part, a tool to ultimately lower what is considered a living wage.

But, if you truly feel the need to have a home maker, I know many women are open to their men staying home and watching the kids.

I am a woman and would be fine to have my husband stay at home with the kids while I worked, if that was the best option for the development of the kids. As kids need certain qualities that a female brings in early childhood. I have no problem reversing the roles if the man can fit those needs just as well.

reply to post by JonoEnglish


I agree with you. As a young teen female in the 70's the women's movement was both liberating and bemusing. My mind said "you are as good as a man", while my emotions said " men and women are not exactly the same". I wanted the freedoms of a man, but feel safe to be feminine. I have become less competitive, striving and eager to prove myself over the years, and feel at ease with being a woman. Life has taught me this, I could not have learned this in a vacuum. Women are strong creatures. We endure hard work, dedicate ourselves selflessly to others, endure pain and inconvenience in life, suffer heartache and a dichotomy of messages of how we are supposed to be.

JonoEnglish points out that circumstances affect behavior. In a free, war and strife-less world women can pursue their dreams and be more selfish and ego driven. But, when the poop hits the fan, men and women adopt more traditional roles, dividing and conquering the problems thrown at them by different methods. They assume separate tasks. Men fight, sacrifice themselves and work hard to protect and provide. Women stay close to the family to protect and provide needs at home. These are somehow natural behaviors, as cultures around the globe show us. They are the 'default' way of behaving.

I have also seen this: Men who are behaving in more open, blatant 'feminine' ways. I think a freer society that has more conveniences ( electricity, fast food, water available, transportation, easily cleaned clothing, etc.) has more free time to bend the gender rules.

Anyone else read the Taming of the Shrew? A lot of that focuses on how the ideal woman should be, which is submissive to her husband in all ways, she must agree with him even if he is obviously wrong, she must always do his bidding, she must always act in a way that will make her husband look good(no matter what an *** he may be), and she must always fit the ideal of beauty and fashion. Essentially a woman is worth nothing if she does not fit what is accepted, regardless of how intelligent the woman may be.

Women are put through hell just to fit this ideal image, no matter how much they may wish to voice out their opinion the must remain silent else they wont appear ladylike. When it comes to physical beauty, the image is often unnatural for most women so they put through in some cases life threatening ordeals in order to reach the image of perfect beauty. Don't believe me? Look up foot binding and corsets. Who created these feminine ideals generally men...no woman in her right mind would thing it's ok to be sold into marriage for a herd of cattle unless a male dominated society tells her that is what she wants...and that since she is a woman she has no right to question. Some of you may say that this not part of the modern world, but sadly that is not true it is still happening. Some women are being raped and later told that it was their fault for being a temptress when in most cases they where just young girls minding their own business. So you see men can be controlling monsters as well.

Can you blame a woman for wanting to be treated like a person and not like a object, and yet you get women who struggles with finding something that truly make them happy and the years of social brainwashing. A woman only needs a man, a woman needs to be super beautiful to find a man ect. Nothing about having self confidence and self respect. Too much of a focus on finding "prince charming".

I believe this is why you get extreme feminism, women who keep chasing after men instead of raising their children, really slutty women who think that will find him the right man, aggressive women who can't stand being considered weak, bratty women who think they are entitled to everything. and very passive women who will let themselves be abused by their man. Many extremes but their are some women who have found a balance in their life and can work, raise children, be married without losing herself in the madness of modern society. to those women.

For those guys who look a woman who sits there, looks pretty and does everything you say without questioning...then you may be looking for a very dependent slave than a wife, maybe even a robot.

reply to post by irsuccubus
You are partially correct. The topic is a broad one and it cannot be narrowed down that easily. The main topic was comparison of women from West and East and their ways of handling life in general.

Just curious. Have you been overseas and stayed for a long period and actually worked with a low income or middle income family in a different country with a different culture other than US?

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by StigShen

Originally posted by hp1229

Likewise here as well. Its how you treat a woman. Most of what I know is old fashioned but it works.

The women I know who are stable-minded and truly happy, have rejected the feminist agenda to live a happy and fulfilling life with a strong male. A man who is a strong leader, and the family's chief need not be a despot but he does have to rule.

True. In other words they like leadership and someone who can lead them in life too just the way some of the graceful dances are. It is not easy to lead but if you have a good leader, i'm sure women will not mind being led.

If your female counterpart was a good leader, would you allow her to lead you? Are you truly saying what you are saying because a vagina somehow makes leadership abilities invalid?

Yes to your first question. In-fact I even joke around all the time with my wife that she will make a damn good politician and ultimately a leader just the way she handles our arguements and the social circle (friends, relatives). She can be manipulative and lie or use excuses that will throw you off (just like the billy joel song...'she's always a woman to me').

I am not saying anything but you are implying. Vagina does not make leadership abilities invalid. It is the built-in instincts that are not designed for it for the most part. How many female politicians or leaders do you know that are currently working as Prime Minister or President in the countries around the world? There are few that I'm already aware of such as UK, India, Phillipines, Germany etc. What about US? Will you ever see a female US President? Why?

Originally posted by StigShen

You obviously did not completely read my post. The problems in those relationships was not me, it was deceptive women.

Of course it was pookie. Its always those nasty dregs of femininity American women who hurt the widdle boy.

Lol.

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by StigShen

Originally posted by hp1229

Likewise here as well. Its how you treat a woman. Most of what I know is old fashioned but it works.

The women I know who are stable-minded and truly happy, have rejected the feminist agenda to live a happy and fulfilling life with a strong male. A man who is a strong leader, and the family's chief need not be a despot but he does have to rule.

True. In other words they like leadership and someone who can lead them in life too just the way some of the graceful dances are. It is not easy to lead but if you have a good leader, i'm sure women will not mind being led.

If your female counterpart was a good leader, would you allow her to lead you? Are you truly saying what you are saying because a vagina somehow makes leadership abilities invalid?

Yes to your first question. In-fact I even joke around all the time with my wife that she will make a damn good politician and ultimately a leader just the way she handles our arguements and the social circle (friends, relatives). She can be manipulative and lie or use excuses that will throw you off (just like the billy joel song...'she's always a woman to me').

I am not saying anything but you are implying. Vagina does not make leadership abilities invalid. It is the built-in instincts that are not designed for it for the most part. How many female politicians or leaders do you know that are currently working as Prime Minister or President in the countries around the world? There are few that I'm already aware of such as UK, India, Phillipines, Germany etc. What about US? Will you ever see a female US President? Why?

Um... maybe because they are more advanced in that regard? We also were behind in equal rights, womens voting rights, and we had slaves. The fact other nations have woman leaders is a credit to their modern civilities and not some sign that women are lesser leaders.

Originally posted by Cuervo
...But, if you truly feel the need to have a home maker, I know many women are open to their men staying home and watching the kids.

And as a man, I have no problem taking on the difficult job of managing a household. Though I do believe that women are more suited for that job. And not because of any social tradition bias, but genetically. Studies show that women are indeed better at multi-tasking. Running a household is a multi-faceted endeavor more difficult than running any small business in many ways.

When it comes to children, young children especially, feminine traits of patience, sympathy, nurturing, etc. are obviously going to be more effective at the hands of a woman than a man. Sure, a man can run the house day to today, but it will still fall to the woman when she comes home from work to render a certain level of warmth and caring that both the children and the husband will be yearning for. Sadly though, they may not get it, because the woman may be bitter and tired, after having spent all day exercising her more masculine traits in a competitive public work environment.

Originally posted by Cuervo


If your female counterpart was a good leader, would you allow her to lead you? Are you truly saying what you are saying because a vagina somehow makes leadership abilities invalid?

No, I would not let a woman lead my household over and above me. However, as a good leader, I will recognize areas in which my woman is better suited to making the decisions and delegate that task to her. As someone else mentioned, traditionally, one of those very important tasks has been managing the family finances.

Sadly, as of late, it seems that women are quite squanderous, fraudulent, and generally lacking in skill when it comes to finances. In one of my long term relationships, the relationship actually failed because she failed to grasp economic reality, and I told her that she had to leave my household. I had managed the finances all along, though we both worked full time. I demanded an increase in the portion of her paycheck that was contributed to the household. She refused. She thought I was trying to "control" her more. So I tried to set her down in front of "the books" where I had every penny accounted for and budgeted. There was a serious shortfall that was beginning to mount. She still refused to acknowledge the cold hard facts of basic arithmetic. And thus, I put her out of my house.

Originally posted by hp1229
reply to post by irsuccubus

 

You are partially correct. The topic is a broad one and it cannot be narrowed down that easily. The main topic was comparison of women from West and East and their ways of handling life in general.

Just curious. Have you been overseas and stayed for a long period and actually worked with a low income or middle income family in a different country with a different culture other than US?

I have not stayed overseas but women (local and abroad) are my business. I have contacts in japan, korea, the uk and africa. And one needn't leave the US to interact with differing cultures of varying incomes. I am well aware of many of the socio-economic and cultural contributors that have bearing on women and a...how they are perceived...b...how they are treated and c...how they feel about themselves and their place within society and the home. I reject labels such as "feminist" because they are too small IMO. Its not about Amazonian masterhood so much as solidarity among women and the knowledge that we do not need to confine ourselves to certain roles simply because thats how it has been done for a long time. Things change and change is always met with resistance...but it still comes. If you are implying that my narrow american lense has left me blind I will say that you are incorrect because one of the things that I like to do....is talk to women from other cultures about what they face, and as I said in a previous post....its different when chicks are dealing with their own. How a woman presents herself to a man and how she presents herself to a woman can be very different. Im not just talking about observing...Im talking about interaction and unless you men who claim all this knowledge hav actually sat down and discussed this with a diverse group of women....what can you really add other than your own opinions and ideals? Unless you have asked them how they see themselves...their husbands...their careers and children...how they think the world views them...you dont really know anything now do you?

As a black woman in the US I am already fighting all sorts of labels so I am drawn to causes where others feel the same and so you know..Japan has a well established feminist movement that began in the 1800's..China's feminist movement sprung up in the 1990's, Islamic feminism has taken hold in the middle east, Lebanon, Norway, Poland, Iran India...all have movements so obviously your argument of this being a strictly western phenomena is flawed. Now ask yourself why there is a need for such things in these countries if the women are so happy with their assigned role.

reply to post by Yeah-Alright


I think you are confusing 'gentle' and 'feminine' with Subservient. I've got to admit I have not seen any lack of femininity.....I think you just have a very biased and confused Idea of what that word means. I certainly don't see a lack of gentleness, in any of the females I grew up with, or have known throughout my life....perhaps you are just surrounding yourself with unfeminine women????
Not to mention I think it wrong to suggest that gentleness is a feminine trait......Males can show it just as much. In a nutshell, I think you see femininity as synonymous with subservient attitudes....like a Geisha girl...thats not true femininity....thats basically a woman defaulting to the lead of a man.

I too, see the shift between the characteristics of man and woman. I don't think this is a bad thing though. In the past, women were dependent on men and donned their roles as submissive. I think of the television series "Leave it to Beaver" where June Cleaver is the perfect model of (then) societies expectations.
The world changed, however. No longer could a family expect to make ends meet solely on a man's income. This forced the women to go out into the world and take jobs. Women began seeing something that s he hadn't seen before; the agressive one gets results. Why should she remain submissive when she is now doing the same work as men ? It took courage to modify her thoughts, behaviors and actions....and for what ? To make ends meet for her family.
As society changed, so did the family values. Men no longer stayed loyal to the wife. What else can a mother do when the father of her children leaves ? Sit on welfare or go out and provide for her family ? Working brought confidence to women. That big scary world that her husband left for each day suddenly wasn't that scary.
As females, I believe we are truly better than men in some work roles. A woman can nurture, hug, cry, and laugh in ways that a man would never be caught doing for fear of being deemed a sissy. ( Nursing , hospice, day care, etc)
Even in today's world there are still women who prefer being the submissive. I think it is more abundant in religious circles than mainstream society. I like who I am. I am capable of nurturing AND working to contribute to the home.
When a man can provide for his family solely on one income, perhaps that is the ideal conditions for the role of a submissive wife. They are out there, but I'm not one of them !