Why hasn't the US made a formal apology to the Native Americans?

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012

 

First, we are matrilineal, not patrilineal: we count our ancestry through our mothers.

Parents aren't supposed to hit or discipline their children: children shouldn't fear their parents. Discipline is provided by the mother's brothers as needed. That doesn't mean parents don't guide and teach the young; by discipline I mean a severe transgression requiring action.

You keep your word, which is why I never give it unless I'm sure of it.

You are responsible for yourself, utterly, in the here and now. There is no such thing as "divine forgiveness".

Usen created the world and all in it.

To each thing its own power was given to provide balance. We humans can do marvelous things but don't get a big head about it: ants do some pretty marvelous things, too, and just try to keep them out.

In each of us is all we ever need if we only dig deep, find it, and use it. It is Usen's gift to every thing and our responsibility.

After creation Usen left with no forwarding address.

I cannot pray to Usen for anything.

My prayers can be and are only prayers of thanks for creating the world and teaching me to respect it.

I am co-equal with every living thing in a way you find difficult to accept and understand.

I see and interact with the world in a different way, with more patience for natural processes of all sorts.

I am obligated to my family in a way I see few Americans understand. They talk a lot about family values, but from my point of view they honor them more in the breach than the observance. There is an Indian proverb that says:

"No man can be rich who takes proper care of his family."

I handle time differently: who I am with in the here and now is more important than who I will meet in the future. If it takes two hours longer to complete the interaction, it would be disrespectful of me to end it early just because of an appointment, especially if I am dealing with an elder. Thus I am usually late: while in Vietnam, my maintenace officer gave me a sayonara present when he rotated home: an alarm clock, in hopes that just once I'd be on time for the war. Expect me when you see me, and don't blame me for wasting your time if you can't find something productive or fun to do with it.

I don't feel obligated to answer a phone just because it rings, and don't feel obligated to answer questions just because someone asks.

I seldom introduce anyone by their name: their name belongs to them and it isn't my privilege or right to divulge it.

I acknowledge no man or woman as my superior, and claim no superiority over others. I will follow as readily as lead, if the goal is good and wise in my judgment.

Unless I give my word, I will freely change my mind even at the last minute, if the evidence shows that is the best course of action. That is the right of every individual.

Does that help illuminate?

There are many other things, some I wouldn't discuss until I knew you far better and then only privately.

Seems to me that we have alot more in common than you would like to believe. I agree with approx. 85% of what you put there. Our spiritual beliefs are different only so far as Usen goes...not the message. The way we handle time is different as well(although I admire yours). I do introduce people by their name, only because that is my culture. Other than those 3 points, our beliefs are close enough.

So with that similarity in mind, and the fact that I have not denied any sort of genocide (merely pointed out that the Indians are as guilty as "white people", how can you claim that you are held down in society any more than middle america? Your ancestors surely were...there is NO denying that. In order for a society/culture to rise from the ashes and continue on from there greatness, they need to stop living in the past and making excuses for modern day behaviour. I know you have been reading this thread as actively as I have and I also know that there is a lot of ignorance on both sides of this. I only offered one, maybe two items towards this thread.

1: The US gov't did apologize.

2: I am a strong advocate for EQUALITY..doesn't matter race, religion, colour, wealth, etc.

I don't think I have presented any untruths in ANY of my comments and although a couple of them were heated, I meant no disrespect to anyone. Especially you Apacheman.

Everyone has a s**t life...or some poop that happens to them as an individual, but, if you choose, and yes it is a choice, to let that run your life you are as much a slave to it as you are to your past.

reply to post by circuitsports


Might makes right, eh?

In the last campaign of the Apache Wars, 36 Apache warriors, 8 boys and 101 women fought 5,500 US soldiers and auxiliaries for over a year, winning every encounter while having no source of supply other than the battlefield. During this same period they fought a simultaneous war against the Mexicans, with several thousand soldiers arrayed against them.

By my count that makes the odds around 38:1, not counting the Mexicans.

Not insurmountable if only we had a source of supply, so close to a fair fight I guess.

May 1885 Geronimo escapes from the San Carlos reservation accompanied by 35 men, 8 boys and 101 women.
March 27, 1886 Crook, along with scouts Al Sieber, Tom Horn and Mickey Free (the white child Cochise was falsely accused of abducting) set out in pursuit, and 10 months later, Geronimo surrendered at Cañon de Los Embudos in Sonora, Mexico. Near the border, however, fearing that they would be murdered once they crossed into U.S. territory, Geronimo and a small band bolted. As a result, Brigadier General Nelson A. Miles replaced Crook as commander on April 2.

During this final campaign, at least 5,000 white soldiers and 500 Indian auxiliaries were employed at various times in the capture of Geronimo's small band. Five months and 1,645 miles later, Geronimo was tracked to his camp in Mexico's Sonora mountains.

Sept. 3, 1886 At a conference at Skeleton Canyon in Arizona, Miles induced Geronimo to surrender once again, promising him that, after an indefinite exile in Florida, he and his followers would be permitted to return to Arizona.

1894 The promise was never kept.

www.thenaturalamerican.com...

reply to post by superman2012


I agree we have a lot in common, but the differences are crucial.

But what you seem not to understand is the impacable desire for a free homeland, out from under the political and economic thumb of the US.

This isn't about me as a person, an individual, it is about the right of my people to exist as a seperate political and economic entity, outside the borders of and free from the United States.

I don't care how much opportunity is offered, how great my personal success is: it is hollow and empty without a free homeland.

Thanks, anyway, but I'd rather be a poor Indian in a free Apache Nation than a wealthy American.

There's the biggest difference in our value systems:

You offer me the freedom to be you.

I want the freedom to be me.

reply to post by superman2012


Here's another set of differences:

We view women differently due to the matrilineality.

When I was growing up I found programs that projected women as weak, flighty, subordinate made me physically ill. Later I realized it was because that image was in severe conflict with my expectations as shaped by the strong women I was raised by. I was taught from the beginning that women had as many rights as men, were as strong, and could be expected and relied upon to make wise decisions and help defend when necessary.

I know how to be invisible, I was taught, drilled in it in my youth, and still maintain the skill.

I talk with animals, and they talk to me. We don't discuss Plato, but we do share pleasantries.

I currently maintain a pact with the Rattlesnake Clan that I made when I was young: I will not kill them, wear them or eat them and they will not harm me or those I am with, and will leave my area when asked. I made that pact long ago by first making it a complete part of my spirit, I made it true within me. Then I walked the wild hills and opened my spirit to them and broadcast my truth to them, day after day, week after week, until I felt their acceptance. Sometimes in the hills we surprise each other, and I make sure to show them my spirit and remind them of the pact their elders made with me that we renew with each meeting.

When I meet new people with animals I ask for proper introduction to the animal and offer it the same respect and acknowledgement of personhood as I would any human.

I also...well, talk with isn't exactly right...uhhhh share acknowldgement of self, I suppose is as good a way as any of expressing it, with trees. It takes forever to get a tree's attention, and they tend to slowness in everything, but with persistence they will eventually acknowledge your presence, if not much else. But it is nice to share company with a tree that deigns to say hello.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012

 

I agree we have a lot in common, but the differences are crucial.

But what you seem not to understand is the impacable desire for a free homeland, out from under the political and economic thumb of the US.

This isn't about me as a person, an individual, it is about the right of my people to exist as a seperate political and economic entity, outside the borders of and free from the United States.

I don't care how much opportunity is offered, how great my personal success is: it is hollow and empty without a free homeland.

Thanks, anyway, but I'd rather be a poor Indian in a free Apache Nation than a wealthy American.

There's the biggest difference in our value systems:

You offer me the freedom to be you.

I want the freedom to be me.

I don't want to be a wealthy American either...I rather like it in my own country. I too would like a free homeland. What you don't seem to understand is the only way you are going to get a free homeland is to invent a time machine and stop the Americans before the genocide takes place. The Indian gov't that governs their own reserves are just as corrupt, and in some instances, even more corrupt than the American Gov't.

If I had achieved as much as you have under the "oppressive" thumb of the American Gov't, I can assure you I would be out there spreading the message to others that were in the same position.

I don't offer you the freedom to be me...I offer you the freedom to be and work with me. That is our crucial difference. I want equality. You want elevated status.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012

 

Here's another set of differences:

We view women differently due to the matrilineality.

When I was growing up I found programs that projected women as weak, flighty, subordinate made me physically ill. Later I realized it was because that image was in severe conflict with my expectations as shaped by the strong women I was raised by. I was taught from the beginning that women had as many rights as men, were as strong, and could be expected and relied upon to make wise decisions and help defend when necessary.

I know how to be invisible, I was taught, drilled in it in my youth, and still maintain the skill.

I talk with animals, and they talk to me. We don't discuss Plato, but we do share pleasantries.

I currently maintain a pact with the Rattlesnake Clan that I made when I was young: I will not kill them, wear them or eat them and they will not harm me or those I am with, and will leave my area when asked. I made that pact long ago by first making it a complete part of my spirit, I made it true within me. Then I walked the wild hills and opened my spirit to them and broadcast my truth to them, day after day, week after week, until I felt their acceptance. Sometimes in the hills we surprise each other, and I make sure to show them my spirit and remind them of the pact their elders made with me that we renew with each meeting.

When I meet new people with animals I ask for proper introduction to the animal and offer it the same respect and acknowledgement of personhood as I would any human.

I also...well, talk with isn't exactly right...uhhhh share acknowldgement of self, I suppose is as good a way as any of expressing it, with trees. It takes forever to get a tree's attention, and they tend to slowness in everything, but with persistence they will eventually acknowledge your presence, if not much else. But it is nice to share company with a tree that deigns to say hello.

Why do you assume that these are a set of differences?!? Is it not plausible and extremely possible that an individual can come to these beliefs on his/her own? The only difference I see here, is the tree talking. I am not making light of it, I just had never even thought of it before. Very interesting though.

reply to post by superman2012


Not elevated: seperate.

big difference.

You dismiss the possibility of freedom casually.

I don't, won't, and can't.

There's another aspect to Apache culture, the one at the heart of the fear we generated (besides the invisibility thing):

When you are outnumbered, outgunned, out of ammunition, surrounded and wounded, you don't surrender....you ATTACK!

If you are lucky the surprise will gain your freedom, if not your enemies will never be at ease approaching another Apache with malice in their heart, no matter how strong they are.

Free Indian Nations would make better trade partners than some countries I could name, anyway.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012

 

Not elevated: seperate.

big difference.

You dismiss the possibility of freedom casually.

I don't, won't, and can't.

There's another aspect to Apache culture, the one at the heart of the fear we generated (besides the invisibility thing):

When you are outnumbered, outgunned, out of ammunition, surrounded and wounded, you don't surrender....you ATTACK!

If you are lucky the surprise will gain your freedom, if not your enemies will never be at ease approaching another Apache with malice in their heart, no matter how strong they are.

Free Indian Nations would make better trade partners than some countries I could name, anyway.

Please elaborate when you say I dismiss the possibility of freedom casually. I also don't think I questioned the heart and bravery of the Apache, hell, the name means enemy! I touched upon other topics that I noticed you never responded to and I am just wondering why? It isn't hard to see that Indian governments are just as corrupt as american gov't.

edit: are you also saying, by means of omission that you don't want equality? and why not?

reply to post by superman2012


While an individual can come to those beliefs, they certainly aren't an inherent part of the US culture.

And some parts I doubt very seriously that many would accept: the US is firmly patrilineal and wouldn't accept a matrilineal organization, there are consequences to it that they would find unacceptable.

I've been condemned (literally) by Christians firmly convinced that Usen is the devil incarnate, even though It hasn't been around and doesn't interact.

Not having our own free land precludes many things that would naturally flow from our beliefs, culture and customs because the dominant culture suppresses them.

By the way, about the trees: their brain is underground, like with all plants. The root system does double duty asborbing nutrients passively and thinking actively, the intermingling rootlets function a lot like synapses in our brains.

You purport to support freedom, the US purports to support freedom and the downtrodden, so what is the big problem with giving us our freedom and the lands we are entitled to?

The treaties specified an end date to government support: that end date was the day we got our freedom back, when we were deemed ready for it.

Now you advocate reneging on the deal and ask us to forget about freedom.

Honestly, would you forget about it?

If you can, then I guess that's the hugest difference between us, and one seemingly insurmountable.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012

 

While an individual can come to those beliefs, they certainly aren't an inherent part of the US culture.

And some parts I doubt very seriously that many would accept: the US is firmly patrilineal and wouldn't accept a matrilineal organization, there are consequences to it that they would find unacceptable.

I've been condemned (literally) by Christians firmly convinced that Usen is the devil incarnate, even though It hasn't been around and doesn't interact.

Not having our own free land precludes many things that would naturally flow from our beliefs, culture and customs because the dominant culture suppresses them.

By the way, about the trees: their brain is underground, like with all plants. The root system does double duty asborbing nutrients passively and thinking actively, the intermingling rootlets function a lot like synapses in our brains.

You purport to support freedom, the US purports to support freedom and the downtrodden, so what is the big problem with giving us our freedom and the lands we are entitled to?

The treaties specified an end date to government support: that end date was the day we got our freedom back, when we were deemed ready for it.

Now you advocate reneging on the deal and ask us to forget about freedom.

Honestly, would you forget about it?

If you can, then I guess that's the hugest difference between us, and one seemingly insurmountable.

I have no preconceived notions that I am "free". Yes I do get to vote, yes I can do things that some countries can't. However, my freedom lies in my own mind. I believe I am free, so I am. No one can MAKE me do anything I don't want to do. All of my lifes hardships and happiness have been a direct result of the choices I make when confronted with situations. I don't blame anyone for the bad just as I don't give anyone credit for the good. The only way to take my freedom away, is to kill me. Everyone is free if you look at it that way. Freedom = choices made. My biggest thing is to have everyone equal...that has been my main point since the beginning of this thread. When one group of people enjoy priviledges that are not allowed to another group of people, that is inequality. It is something that people can't quite understand. It happens in all groups.

So the dominant culture on reserves is "white"? Is that how your beliefs, culture and customs are suppressed? If that is not the case then please explain how on a reserve full of Indians their own beliefs, culture and customs are being suppressed. I do alot of work on reserves and I see the children walking around like Slim Shady, the parents at home during the day, you could almost feel the depression in these reserves. Also, on two of the reserves if we were to do work during the night, we were to be escorted by the police. Is everything the "white man's" fault? At what point do people start taking ownership of their choices?

Thank you for elaborating about the trees. Very interesting concept. If all the root systems are connected, do they share one consciousness then?

reply to post by superman2012


We are talking about differences of scale.

You speak of individual freedom which is a good thing as far as it goes.

I am speaking of freedom for a whole set of peoples: the Indian Nations.

We don't want to be part of the US, no matter what inducement you offer.

We want our freedom back, specifically freedom from Americans.

It doesn't make a single whit of difference how corrupt any Indian governments are or might be, corrupt or not they are and would be ours. Trust me: it wouldn't be long after freedom that those corrupt governments would be changed.

If you want to clean up corrupt governments, start with New York, New Jersey, and Washington. We'll deal with our own problems.

Most of the lands in the southwest actually belong to us: go look up federal trust lands. Who do you think they are held in trust for? Mostly they are used for grazing right now. So the land base is there, that's not an excuse.

The real problem is pride and fear: to free us would shrink the size of the United States, something intolerable to American pride and fear of what the Nations might do in retribution.

Jeez...why do I feel like a woman trying to end a relationship an ex who just won't go away?

Don't take that personally, though.

reply to post by apacheman


hahaha! I understand where you are coming from. Agree to disagree I guess. We both have our valid points and now I have learned more than when I started.

ps- I have never claimed to be a US citizen..I live in Canada as I said earlier.

consider this relationship broken up I guess.

As have I... This conversation has been quite enlightening.
Thx

reply to post by superman2012


Not exactly shared consiousness if you mean they are all one; they are each unique like us, but they do communicate with each other and warn each other of problems. Did you know that if bugs attack trees on one side of a forest, trees miles away will begin producing toxins against that specific bug within a very short time?

Most of the problems on the reservations is due to the lack of any future: In the US, and I presume Canada, economic development is tightly controlled off-res and is not allowed to compete with non-res businesses for the most part. The young ones are smart enough to know the deck is stacked against them and the majority culture is simply waiting for them to die out. It depresses the hell out of them. They'd rather fail together than succeed alone.

If you are truly for equality, and against special privilege, then what's the problem with recognizing our equality as nations, and removing the special privilege your government has of dictating policy to the tribes?

Being Indian isn't a special privilege, but a state of reality.

Having once been independent, no heart or nation can rest until it is regained.

We will never, ever, assimilate and never stop demanding what is rightfully ours; seperate nations we control free of America, and Canada, too. No matter how many times Americans say it ain't gonna happen, we won't give up.

The Jews kept faith for thousands of years, and got a homeland.

I guess we can wait that long if we must, but somehow I think it is closer than anyone now surmises.

Originally posted by apacheman
We are talking about differences of scale.

You speak of individual freedom which is a good thing as far as it goes.

I am speaking of freedom for a whole set of peoples: the Indian Nations.

We don't want to be part of the US, no matter what inducement you offer.

We want our freedom back, specifically freedom from Americans.

It doesn't make a single whit of difference how corrupt any Indian governments are or might be, corrupt or not they are and would be ours. Trust me: it wouldn't be long after freedom that those corrupt governments would be changed.

If you want to clean up corrupt governments, start with New York, New Jersey, and Washington. We'll deal with our own problems.

Most of the lands in the southwest actually belong to us: go look up federal trust lands. Who do you think they are held in trust for? Mostly they are used for grazing right now. So the land base is there, that's not an excuse.

The real problem is pride and fear: to free us would shrink the size of the United States, something intolerable to American pride and fear of what the Nations might do in retribution.

Jeez...why do I feel like a woman trying to end a relationship an ex who just won't go away?

Don't take that personally, though.

I think this is the biggest problem to the Native people getting their freedom back. They want to go it alone. The Great Spirit has bigger plans. He see a family of Man coming together. A time for universal freedom for all. No man has a right to rule another, and it is up to the ancestors to remind us of our ways. Look at the early european cultures, they were no so very different than you. They were over taken by the Empire shortly before you.

You are all in this fight together. You should be learning from each other how to be free again.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by superman2012


I didn't mean you...I meant the US and Canadian governments won't go away.

They are the ex, not you.

I suppose a lot of my comments would apply to my Canadian brethren. Although I'm not as familiar with their problems vis-a-vis the Canadian government, when I do pay attention or run across them, our views and problems are basically similar.

Originally posted by CharlesMartel
reply to post by TheForgottenOnes

 

There are a couple of reasons why, if you get a formal apology, it will be meaningless.

Ok, bring it on!

Originally posted by CharlesMartel
1. The people who treated the "Native Americans" poorly, and who should apologize, are long gone.

Irrelevant :down:, as I have shown in the example of Chancellor Willy Brandt who apologized to the Polish people for the genocide committed by the Nazis. He himself was Social Democrat and his party had voted against the law to make Hitler dictator for life and many of it's members perished in the holocaust. Willy Brandt was neither personally responsible for the Polish genocide/holocaust nor was his party, but nevertheless, he knelt at Auschwitz and apologized to the Polish people and it's then government, to the Jews and all the other nationalities and finally to all the world.

Originally posted by CharlesMartel
2. The "rights" issues are because the tribes were considered "Indian Nations" and therefore not part of the United States. You can't be not subject to the United States and vote, etc.

Yes, but let's not forget the Trail of the Broken Treaties, the Trail of Tears, the deportation and restriction to land that was absolutely worthless for agricultural purposes. Well, it's just history now, that the Native Americans or First Nations (First because they were first on that huge continent of the Americas, North, Central and South America.) have citizen rights. Still, I believe an official apology by the US government is in order. See under 1. for reasons.

Originally posted by CharlesMartel
p.s. I am offended by the term "Native American". I was born in Chicago and 13 generations of my ancestors were born here. I certainly am a native American!

Don't be, of course by now you are also considered native American citizen, but I personally like to call the so-called "Indians" Native Americans, because they were thousands of years there before the white Caucasian European imperialist powers arrived to pillage, explore and conquer that huge continent.

It is silly to call them "Indians", because modern day Indians live in India and it was just a silly misconception by Columbus that by sailing West he would sail around the globe and reach India. Boy was he wrong. Also, since you are the offended one, please, tell us how we should in your opinion call the First Nations if not Native Americans? Do you have an alternative term to propose?

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012

 

If you are truly for equality, and against special privilege, then what's the problem with recognizing our equality as nations, and removing the special privilege your government has of dictating policy to the tribes?

I am sorry for just taking this one comment of yours and responding to just it.
I can't speak for every tribe or every government, but, in Canada there is rampant mismanagement of funds and misappropriation of funds amongst Indian groups.
I will give you a few examples where special priviledge was taken and power was abused.

www.cbc.ca...

www.torontosun.com...

www.canada.com...
this one also shows what freedoms Indians get here...as well as special treatment

www.nationalpost.com...
This one shows that not just "white gov't" is corrupt.

www2.macleans.ca...
A reserve turns itself into a municipality.

www.fcpp.org...
Holding Indians accountable for corruption.

Now I know there are countless other ones but I think I have already added too many. I know that there are countless "white" cases as well...this is just to illustrate that Indians are just a corrupt race as white people. You don't need any help...you can do it yourself. Self governance was a big part before white people came to North America, you can't honestly tell me that there wasn't corruption then as well?

We can't be called EQUALS until ALL special priviledges are suspended...not just white ones.

ps- glad you weren't breaking up with me

reply to post by WalterRatlos


I mean no disrespect when I use the term Indian. I would call you Native Americans, but, as the term America wasn't around when you were it wouldn't make any sense. As for First Nations, well it has been proven that you weren't the First here and neither were you a Nation in the meaning of the word. If the term Indian offends anyone, I am sorry. Please tell me what to call you as a people. I realize there are quite a few different Indian tribes...so if you tell me which tribe you belong to I will refer to it by name. If I have to name a few tribes together and lump them into one group I will refer to you as Indians...even though I know that name to be incorrect as well....stupid Columbus.

reply to post by superman2012


Uh, yes, there wasn't corruption in the sense we know it today because the premises on which society was built were different. Capitalism didn't exist here, women had the right to vote most places, and most societies were genuine democracies. Sharing was an essential part of the culture, so few actually went hungry. Are you aware that when the europeans arrived, their gold turned out to be worthless? It wasn't recognized as a medium of exchange, and refused for trading purposes. King Philips War was fought to gain control of the currency and replace the Native currency, wampum, with a gold standard.

In any case it is a red herring. What business is it of yours or Canada's or the US if some of our governments are corrupt? Most of the corruption is due to the influence of the governments involved and the oversight agencies. Strong, non-corrupt Native leaders are usually arrested, not allowed in positions of power.

As I've said, the vast majority of corrupt Native governments probably wouldn't last a week without their foreign government backers.

And after we jailed or buried a few dozen corporate shysters, they, too, wouldn't be much of a problem.