Abortion, Genocide, what’s THE difference?!?!?!?!?.... do you condone murder???

Originally posted by 22ndsecond
reply to post by MindSpin

 

Please consider the fact that the abortion issue is not black and white, but to make it illegal, you are making it so.
It is important to treat the matter with care and no act foolishly. To make informed decisions that act best in the interest of mother and child. And sometimes, that best interest for both is to cease the pregnancy. Sometimes it is not. But certainly, you are not committing murder before those cells have a heart or brain. You are aborting, what could become life, same all those dropped eggs that go unfertilized, or those that die on their own.

Acting foolishly would be killing thousands of human lives everyday based off the arbitrary picked starting point of "life" based on philosophy when a perfectly accurate based on science is available.

You can say all you want that they aren't committing murder...baby killers generally have to justify their actions so they don't feel guilt.

reply to post by 44247844

If there is a woman who does want the baby, but the man does not, but the woman could not afford the baby without the man's help, then is it not an "equal" response to tell the woman "Tough, then you have to abort the baby"? as compared to "Looks like you are going to have to pay up, man"?
As you can see, I am not playing "pro-life" or "pro-choice". I am simply looking at how the laws are clearly not equal, although people are supposed to be "equal". What are your thoughts on this,

He should tell her "tough"...why not? If she is smart enough to know that this baby will be expensive, and she cannot afford it without his $ help, then by all means he should tell her to abort. The law doesn't look at it that way tho. Maybe you should bring this point up with the law makers who say the man should pay.

How would you make things "equal"?

Do men really want to walk away from their unplanned children?
And can they do it without the slightest twinge of guilt or remorse?

As it is I think that most unwanted children these days are on welfare.

reply to post by OhZone

Do men really want to walk away from their unplanned children?
And can they do it without the slightest twinge of guilt or remorse?

Ummmmm....

Do women really want to kill their unplanned children?

And can they do it without the slightest twinge of guilt or remorse?


Do you honestly not see how hypocritical you are being???

reply to post by OhZone


Thank you for your reply, OhZone. However, I am not making these points because I want to change the law. The law as it is, however, is illogical and does treat men and women differently. I am making these points to reveal inconsistencies in the ideas of some people, regardless of which side they are on.
If you really believe that the woman should have the right to abort regardless of the man's opinion, then if you believe in "fairness" you would also believe that the man should have the right to walk away from any financial responsibility. From your posts, however, I am not sure if you believe this or not.
You did bring up the point of date rape, and I have already stated that I am not concerned with situations involving rape ("not concerned" meaning that I am only speaking about situations where the man and the woman have consensual sex). As it stands, it is legal to abort a baby for reasons that are far less significant than rape.
I am not sure whether MindSpin would say this, so I will not claim that he/she would, but I can say this: If the woman cannot take financial responsibility for the baby without the father, then she obviously should not be having a baby in the first place. Therefore, the man need not support the baby if he does not want to.
And about your point of men walking away from their children, and whether they can do it without guilt or remorse: Can women really abort their babies without the slightest twinge of guilt or remorse? More importantly, is it relevant?
Welfare. There is nothing that will be changed about this. I have read a scholarly book about poverty that showed statistics claiming that even under court orders to pay child support, most men still do not pay. It will end up coming out of our pockets regardless, and has been coming out of our pockets for as long as we have been working. I can honestly tell you that I do not miss that portion from my paycheck or my taxes, as I never see it in the first place. Automatic deductions make these things easier. I believe that if my money is being used to raise children whose fathers could not "man up", then it is going to much better use than I may otherwise have done with it.
So, OhZone, what is your stance on the situation that I have been pointing out? Thank You.

Originally posted by OhZone
Why do you think it is being prejudiced to expect a man to support his child?

Did you know that male victims of statutory rape have to pay child support if their rapists become pregnant and have the baby?

reply to post by MindSpin


Hahaha "baby killers" statement's like this really make me laugh, for you are again treating embryonic cells as if they're babies.

I realize that most people who hold this anti-choice point of view are pretty hard to get through to. I hope that you do raise your children well and adopt and raise those well, congratulations to you if you do that and aren't just adding it for argumentative kicks.


To you women out there who have aborted a pregnancy or are going to, please don't let Anti-choice people (or self proclaimed pro-lifers) make you feel rotten. Act out of care and love for yourself and that potential life. I can only imagine it must be a difficult decision to make, but know that you have supporters.

Originally posted by 22ndsecond
Hahaha "baby killers" statement's like this really make me laugh, for you are again treating embryonic cells as if they're babies.

The lump of embryonic cells just kicked..

Ultrasound technician: "And if you look right there you can see the lump of tissue's heart beating. Do you want to know the lump of tissue's gender?"

Doctor: "The lump of tissue seems to be doing well."

I think abortion is about feelings, not choice. The whole decision is made at a time when you are afraid in one way or another.

My sister had an abortion when she was 16. She never told anyone about it. She told me about it when she was in her 20's. What she stated to me was that at the time she was young and afraid of the responsibility. Our parents never explained the facts of life to us, and the only information she had to go on was what other teenagers gave her. The boy she had sex with told her she couldn't get pregnant her "first time'. He was wrong.

At that time, she was afraid of being a mom. She told me that if she could reverse it now, she would. In her mind she thinks about what could have been and feels like a murderer. And she would never make that choice again. But she has to live with that choice everyday of her life now.

I think in one of the posts I read where education in the home and in the schools would be the best way to prevent abortion. I believe in some cases, that would be the correct action to take. As in my sisters case. If she had been more educated, she would never had to make that decision.

In other cases, such as rape victims, it is not that simple. The fear is always there and the child is a symbol of that fear.

As for a mom dying if she goes through with the pregnancy, I would always choose the life of my child before my own. They could be the next president of the united states for crying out loud!

reply to post by 22ndsecond


I am guessing, then, that you (22ndsecond) believe that abortion is alright at any stage of development (Forgive me if I am wrong). MindSpin does seem to have a point, however, about the "slippery slope". The only thing separating a highly developed fetus from a baby is whether or not it is in the womb. Both a highly developed fetus and a baby cannot survive without a mother to take care of it, so the point of the fetus depending on the mother is irrelevant. An argument could be made from this "dependence" factor that a baby is not a human since it depends on a caretaker (although I am not claiming that you are making that argument).
So, 22ndsecond, why should a fetus be "abortable" just because it needs the woman's body to survive? A baby needs the mother's care to survive, so where is the difference? Thank You.

reply to post by kevinunknown


that's fine, however you still doged the point i posed. that your opinion on the definition of murder is useless. your perceptions mean nothing to anyone else. deal with it!

reply to post by SevenBeans


Well, SevenBeans, I believe that 22ndsecond may have been referring to the actual fertilized embryo at that point, so he/she may not see your post as being relevant. However, if 22ndsecond believes that abortion is alright at any stage, there may be problem....

reply to post by 22ndsecond

Act out of care and love for yourself and that potential life.

Don't try to kid anyone...killing something is never an act of "caring" for them.


It's a good lie to reduce guilty feelings.

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by 22ndsecond
Hahaha "baby killers" statement's like this really make me laugh, for you are again treating embryonic cells as if they're babies.

The lump of embryonic cells just kicked..

Ultrasound technician: "And if you look right there you can see the lump of tissue's heart beating. Do you want to know the lump of tissue's gender?"

Doctor: "The lump of tissue seems to be doing well."

edit on 26-2-2011 by SevenBeans because: (no reason given)

This is a completly awesome post.

I'm going to steal this from you and use it in the future...good thoughts.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by igor_ats

 

Couldn't say. I don't believe in pershonhood to begin with.

Unfortunately the law applies to all in whatever jurisdiction they're in.

I'd say it helps when ppl argue a zygote is in fact a "baby", or should have the same rights as one. We need legal definitions. After all abortion is a legal issue not a moral or philosophical one.

Originally posted by MindSpin
Blame biology...not me. I'm sorry the poor poor women were born women and thus tasked with carrying offspring.

If a women doesn't want to be "enslaved" by a fetus...if she feels that strongly about it...then she is free to go get her tubes tied or a hysterectomy. She can solve it herself if she feels so strongly about the possibility of being "enslaved".

Originally posted by OhZone
I'd like to know how he concluded that the fetus has a right to enslave its host.

I'm guessing his argument is "tough you're a woman who has a womb to carry a baby so you can't get an abortion".

Originally posted by 44247844
I am simply saying that if a woman has the unilateral, legal choice to keep the baby, then she should be prepared to support the baby, with or without the father.

I see the point you're trying to make.

Thing is, as I said before. . . you basically asked "why should the man have to pay child support if the woman decides to carry the pregnancy to term." I'm guessing that is your question?

I answered this, either the taxpayer pays for child support or the biological father. The government obviously decided the tax payer shouldn't pay if they get the man to pick up the bill.

Right wrong. . . I think that is another topic.

Originally posted by 44247844
I believe another poster brought up something akin to "My body, my choice, OUR responsibility". This simply does not make sense from an "equal rights" point of view, nor is it logical. Thanks again.

No equal rights if one right trumps another.

Pregnant womans bodily integrity > Mans "right" to refuse child support.

Originally posted by 44247844
I am simply saying that if a woman has the unilateral, legal choice to keep the baby, then she should be prepared to support the baby, with or without the father.

Using the pro-life logic. . . if the woman doesn't want a baby don't have sex. We can argue if the man doesn't want to pay child support - don't have sex.

Besides do you really want a legal framework where a man has power to make demands. . .

don't have this baby or I won't support it financially. . . now go have an abortion U mad?

Pro-lifers wouldn't want that either.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
The lump of embryonic cells just kicked..

Ultrasound technician: "And if you look right there you can see the lump of tissue's heart beating. Do you want to know the lump of tissue's gender?"

Doctor: "The lump of tissue seems to be doing well."

People call each other "baby" all the time. Grown women are referred to as girls all the time.

I'm sure these are awesome arguments against Roe V Wade.

Colloquillisms = facts amirite?

reply to post by igor_ats


Correct. And the only thing meter-able about a human is its genes. The brain waves continue through out space time well after death, so going by that space time itself has rights. That's just silly. The legal definition of a human is by what makes it human. That would be the cells that have the potential to continue supporting that human. That human is a dependency on those cells that have a potential to keep it alive. Thus they have rights. Its a hierarchical law..

44247844, Women do not take abortion lightly. Many of them have life long feelings of remorse.
No, it is not relevant to the man refusing financial aid, but is relevant to his emotional support.

As to whether I believe that the man should have a right to walk away from financial responsibility….
I would say that decision would have to be made on a case by case basis. I do not believe that one size fits all.
As to date rape, this may be an ongoing relationship which becomes consensual once he has broken down her barriers. I do not consider that to be the same a violent criminal rape.

I raised my 2 kids mostly by myself. I got very little from their father at a time when I needed it most.
At “women’s wages’ it took a long time before I was finally making enough where I could tell him to cram it, that I didn’t need it.

“Did you know that male victims of statutory rape have to pay child support if their rapists become pregnant and have the baby? “

Now that is alarming; worse than when a man’s legal wife has another man’s baby, as proven by DNA tests, but the law still says he has to pay to support it.

Mindspin says: “
Do women really want to kill their unplanned children?
And can they do it without the slightest twinge of guilt or remorse?
Do you honestly not see how hypocritical you are being??? “

As you have already learned, most women agonize over this decision, and do have plenty of remorse. No I’m not being hypocritical. I asked a question.
How do men feel about it when walking away refusing to support their offspring?

reply to post by igor_ats

Hello again, igor_ats. To clarify, I am not saying that the man's right to refuse child support trumps the womans bodily integrity. The man may not want the baby, but it is not necessary to abort the baby to require that child support not be paid. On the other hand, this means that the woman wants to keep the baby, so there is no "bodily integrity" being compromised, since the baby can just be born or aborted based on what the woman wants. There is no equality problem that follows from what I stated.

I know what the law is on this subject, however, and that the man still has to pay for child support. However, I guess that what I am really asking is if you or anyone else thinks that it is okay for a woman to abort a baby against a man's will, but another woman can turn around and force a man to pay child support for a baby that he did not want.

I guess that applying the "if you do not want a baby, do not have sex" logic can apply to both genders (obviously). I guess I did not make the fact that I believe this point explicit, and that is my mistake. However, applying this "rule" to both genders still leaves the problem of "My body, my choice, OUR responsibility". I still do not see how this makes sense. As I have said before, I am only speaking of consensual sex, and both women and men can make their own decisions. Thank You.

reply to post by OhZone


OhZone, of course I know that MOST women do not take the decision to abort lightly. However, could you clarify on the situations where you believe a man can walk away from his financial responsibility? Thank You.

Originally posted by MindSpin
Don't try to kid anyone...killing something is never an act of "caring" for them.

...thats just more of your irrational myopic silliness... i've put down several animals that i loved very much because they were suffering and there was no cure, no quality of life...

Originally posted by MindSpin
It's a good lie to reduce guilty feelings.

...your ocd is WAY out of control, hon... take a break... drink a beer... go for a walk... visit with your wife or friends... your negative and often quite ugly attitude is not going to change anyone's mind on abortion...