Yikes! The Uterus Police!

Originally posted by jimmyx
yes i do....the fetus is attached to the females body inside of her, thus it is part of her body.

Interesting.. so a pregnant women's body has 20 fingers, 20 toes, 4 arms, 4 legs, 2 heads, 2 vaginas (or 1 vagina and 1 penis)? Amazing!

Originally posted by jimmyx
no man or government should have ANY control over that. why is this so hard to understand. maybe you should move to a country that has sharia law, because that's obviously where you would feel the most comfortable.

Religion has nothing to do with it... generally speaking there are legal consequences for people who cause someone else horrific injuries like brain damage and deformity. There is no logical reason that women shouldn't face any legal consequences for causing such injuries to their unborn when they're pregnant.

reply to post by jimmyx

the fetus is attached to the females body inside of her, thus it is part of her body. no man or government should have ANY control over that. why is this so hard to understand. maybe you should move to a country that has sharia law, because that's obviously where you would feel the most comfortable.

Oh, please. Half the developed world allows abortion only in first 3 months. Maybe you should move to Somalia, where no government would interfere with killing or maiming innocent babies in the third trimester.

It is also an interesting fact that according to shariah law, the soul enters the body in 4th month of pregnancy. This is more or less in agreement with todays science. I am an atheist, but shariah law is spot on in this issue.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


I was under the impression that the government was looking for ways to cut spending. This bill seems a little counter-productive and in my opinion... stupid, especially when you consider Republicans have threatened to shut down the government unless spending was cut.

When it comes to abortion,

I think we can all agree that it is kinda bad to kill a baby because the parents didn't not use protection.

But there are those cases of rape.

Overall, people should just use protection.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
I understand this to an extent... many miscarraiges are caused by neglect/irresponsibility.

This is not accurate information. 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage for reasons that are never fully understood. Usually it's a chromosomal abnormality, sometimes it's uterine fibroids, or other problems of the uterus or cervix, a thyroid condition, etc. Any obstetrician will tell you this.

I've had two miscarriages, one occurred this last Christmas day, and after going through the pain, the tears, the lost hope, the fear and heartbreak, I couldn't imagine having a "uterus police" telling me that it was my fault.

Originally posted by Cobra5000
This is not accurate information. 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage for reasons that are never fully understood. Usually it's a chromosomal abnormality, sometimes it's uterine fibroids, or other problems of the uterus or cervix, a thyroid condition, etc. Any obstetrician will tell you this.

I know all that, the fact remains that many miscarraiges occur because of neglect etc. etc... there is nothing inaccurate about that statement.

Originally posted by Cobra5000
I've had two miscarriages, one occurred this last Christmas day, and after going through the pain, the tears, the lost hope, the fear and heartbreak, I couldn't imagine having a "uterus police" telling me that it was my fault.

I'm sure it wasn't your fault, but in some cases (and in some cases of babies born with brain damage or deformity) it is the mother's fault.

Originally posted by Maslo
It is also an interesting fact that according to shariah law, the soul enters the body in 4th month of pregnancy. This is more or less in agreement with todays science. I am an atheist, but shariah law is spot on in this issue.

edit on 23/2/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

How is the soul entering the baby in 4th month in agreement with today's science? When did science even prove the existence of a soul? As far as I understand it, the existence of a soul is still a matter of faith.

reply to post by SevenBeans


Prosecuting miscarriages after the fact (assuming the fetus died before the abortion limit), as said in the law, is of course nonsense. After miscarriage, there would be no baby, noones health is threatened by it, its a victimless "crime".

Prosecuting behaviour that leads to damaged babies being born (extensive drinking and smoking during pregnancy, with no intent to terminate it by abortion) is another matter entirely, since there is a concrete victim with damaged health (baby after being born, or after abortion limit has passed). That should be illegal, just like damaging the health of your newborn after the birth or in third trimester is illegal. The mother doing it should be presented with a choice to either stop, or terminate the pregnancy. Any other option leads to a victim in the future, so should be a crime.

reply to post by SevenBeans


[color=deeppink]
So we meet again.

In many cases, the doctor does look into why it happens. I had a miscarriage in 2008 and my doctor ordered a karyotype to try to find the reason why. The karytotype came back normal, so no answers were offered.

I don't really see where your analogy fits into this discussion. We are talking about miscarriage here. The options for finding the cause of death for a fully developed person are a lot greater than finding the cause of death of an embryo/fetus. I am not saying that either life has more value than the other, just for the record.

If the cause of death cannot be found for a fully developed person, the causes are deemed "natural", meaning that they don't know the exact cause in all cases. With an embryo, the options are limited. There might not be enough tissue to actually perform the necessary tests. If the ovum was blighted, there is literally nothing there save for a gestational sac which limits the options considerably. If the miscarriage has progressed to the point that most or all of the products of conception have been expelled, then the chances of finding the cause are almost zero.

There is likely nothing you can say to make me embrace this proposal. I would be horrified if just after experiencing a miscarriage, they wanted to investigate me, possibly question my friends and family, and face charges if the reason they found wasn't up to their standards.

When the vast majority of cases are natural in nature and only a few are teratogenic, does it really make sense to test every single miscarriage? The percentage of clinically recognized pregnancies that end in miscarriage is incredibly high, and the numbers of unrecognized pregnancies that end in miscarriage make that number even higher. We can see from the statistics that I (and others) have posted that the causes are, in most cases, not the fault of the mother. If there were more evidence in favor of the majority (or "many" as you have stated, I still want to see a source for that statement) of miscarriages being caused by harmful substances and/or intentional physical trauma, I would be able to see the point.

reply to post by SevenBeans


Do you have some sort of proof (study, link, etc) that indicates that many miscarriages are caused by the mother's actions (drinking, smoking, drugs)? As I have read on line and in school, many miscarriages occur just as has been stated many many times on this thread, underlying health issues, chromosomal abnormalities, etc.

Also, the cause of most deformity is genetic.

Where are you getting this information?

Roe vs. Wade pretty much means that an attempt to make abortion illegal would be struck down as unconstitutional, so I wouldn't worry too much about this idiot. (the rep trying to introduce the bill)

Funny how the conservatives are for small government unless religious issues are concerned...then they are all for creating bureaucracy to handle it....

Not needed, not wanted, and completely unconstitutional.

reply to post by searching4truth


I did not mean it literally of course. If we take it a little metaphorically, "soul" is what makes us different from soulless life such as plants or lower animals (in case of higher animals its not entirelly correct if we take the abrahamic theology that they dont have a soul, but whatever), what makes us a person, or conscious being, instead of vegetative life. These qualities are associated with the presence of a functioning higher brain. The appearance of fetal brain waves (functioning higher brain) is around 4-5th month of development. That should be the beginning of human life deserveing protection (human person), just as death (the end of human life deserving protection, or human person) is medically defined as irreversible disappearence of higher brain activity.

Originally posted by daryllyn
I don't really see where your analogy fits into this discussion. We are talking about miscarriage here. The options for finding the cause of death for a fully developed person are a lot greater than finding the cause of death of an embryo/fetus. I am not saying that either life has more value than the other, just for the record.

Once again... and I'm not sure why I have to keep repeating this... my position is that grossly negligent behavior be the thing that is punished (regardless of the outcome for the baby) so the only investigation would be into the Mother's behavior.

Originally posted by daryllyn
If the cause of death cannot be found for a fully developed person, the causes are deemed "natural", meaning that they don't know the exact cause in all cases. With an embryo, the options are limited. There might not be enough tissue to actually perform the necessary tests. If the ovum was blighted, there is literally nothing there save for a gestational sac which limits the options considerably. If the miscarriage has progressed to the point that most or all of the products of conception have been expelled, then the chances of finding the cause are almost zero.

See above.

Originally posted by daryllyn
When the vast majority of cases are natural in nature and only a few are teratogenic, does it really make sense to test every single miscarriage?

No it doesn't, like I said (what, 12 times now?) it is the negligent behavior itself that should be investigated and punished. If you drive drunk and don't kill anyone there are still legal consequences. If you drink and smoke while pregnant and the baby turns out fine there should still be legal consequences. The punishment shouldn't be based on what caused a miscarraige or brain damage or deformity... it should be based on the negligent behavior itself.

This law is just plain ridiculous. I’ve had a miscarriage years ago after my first child. It was in the second month and was never going to be a baby. It was just a blob of cells…no heart…nothing. So my body did the natural thing and expelled it. Afterward I was not too upset because I knew I did not lose a potential child. But I would not have wanted anyone besides my doctor investigating anything.

My question is if one of the reasons for this law is to issue death certificates how can a death certificate be issued for a blob of cells (in my case) if nothing had been born to begin with? Don’t you need a birth certificate first?

Originally posted by PerpetualSeeker
This law is just plain ridiculous. I’ve had a miscarriage years ago after my first child. It was in the second month and was never going to be a baby. It was just a blob of cells…no heart…nothing. So my body did the natural thing and expelled it. Afterward I was not too upset because I knew I did not lose a potential child. But I would not have wanted anyone besides my doctor investigating anything.

Let me ask you then... if someone else caused the miscarraige through gross negligence or abuse of some kind do you think there should be any legal consequence for that person? What if someone else caused brain damage to your unborn through gross negligence?

If the answer is yes, why should we hold others to a higher standard than the mother?

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by jimmyx
yes i do....the fetus is attached to the females body inside of her, thus it is part of her body.

Interesting.. so a pregnant women's body has 20 fingers, 20 toes, 4 arms, 4 legs, 2 heads, 2 vaginas (or 1 vagina and 1 penis)? Amazing!

Originally posted by jimmyx
no man or government should have ANY control over that. why is this so hard to understand. maybe you should move to a country that has sharia law, because that's obviously where you would feel the most comfortable.

Religion has nothing to do with it... generally speaking there are legal consequences for people who cause someone else horrific injuries like brain damage and deformity. There is no logical reason that women shouldn't face any legal consequences for causing such injuries to their unborn when they're pregnant.

edit on 23-2-2011 by SevenBeans because: (no reason given)

Wow.. A baby is inside the woman. A pregnant woman has 10 toes and 10 fingers and 1 head. Do you have problems with your sight or are you being condesending to attempt to make some idiotic point?

Originally posted by Nitemare26
Wow.. A baby is inside the woman. A pregnant woman has 10 toes and 10 fingers and 1 head. Do you have problems with your sight or are you being condesending to attempt to make some idiotic point?

Someone stated that the unborn was not just inside the Mother, but part of the Mother's body. If that's the case than a pregnant woman's body has 4 arms, 4 legs etc. etc.

reply to post by SevenBeans


"MANY" -- You keep using that word but I do not think it means what you think it means.

No one here is arguing that YES neglect and abuse CAN indeed cause miscarriages. The problem is you keep using the word MANY and that is not statistically accurate. You've even agreed on the well documented statistic that about 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. What you're missing is that an extremely small percentage of that 50% are caused by poor choices and neglect. MANY indicates a large number of that 50% and that is just not true. Stop using the word many and go Google some statistics and don't come back until you got numbers to back the use of the word many.

As for the effects of abuse that cause birth defects. Sorry buddy, that ain't gonna happen. While there have been studies done that document these abuses and neglect cause birth defects there are many other factors out of the mother's control that also cause birth defects. Proving that the defect was indeed caused by those abuses will most likely be difficult. And the government has NO right to start such an investigation.

reply to post by PerpetualSeeker


Or a name?
That would make it even more awful!