What did the war bring to us?

Im an american and want to support my country, even the iraq war, but... i think there are dark ulterior motives here. Maybe not 'dark' but ulterior motives anyway. I beleive the us is preparing for something... and what a better way then to fight a controlled war that your 'sure' to win. Let the boys have experience, see if the billions of dollars in equipment and training worked, and if not fix it. And just see how big your 'muscles' are. I know i sound ignorant and selfish but war is the same no matter how you slice it, people die, things get blown up and people suffer. But thats what i believe anyway. Vote Bush cuz Nader and Kerry are complete idiots

Jakomo your reply against crmanager is unjustified and you see him just as a simple puppet. You assumed alot and accused him of many things. Might reconsider your post?

pick a fact:

1) G W Bush is his fathers son

2) Didnt Saddam try and kill G Bush senior after the first Iraqi war??

3) Saddam was a ruthless dictator, life was ***** in Iraqi for everyone Muslim or non Muslim

4) The Muslims (well certain factions anyway) HATED ALL AMERICANS enough to ATTACK the World Trade Centre BEFORE any Iraqi war

5) There were plans to deal with Afghanistan to get a pipe line in to get the oil out before 9/11 and a certain USA offical even said to the Taliban "we will carpet your country with bombs" (or something to that effect) if you dont comply...a few months later 9/11....a few months later those bombs fell...Afghanistan is now in USA control.

6) America put Saddam in power. Originally IRAN was the MAJOR THREAT not Iraqi. America funded Saddam anda much younger Rumsfeld even visted and meet with Saddam.

7) Plans were on the table to wage war with Iraqi as early as 1997 and even during Bushes election campaign it was part of the Republican foreign policy. (this is a non debatable FACT)

8) Washington is currently run by BARKING MAD LUCIFERIC SEMETIC NUTS also know as the NEO CONS who want to create an AMERICAN EMPIRE controlling all of the worlds major resourse hotspots to fuel the American brainwashed consumer driven economy.

9) Bin Laden was funded by the CIA and America, has extensive links to the Bush family (no **** they flew members of the Bin Laden family out of America after 9/11)

10) Whether you like it or not America has f**ed with the world for the last 50yrs. Too many American fingers in way to many pies. South America, South East Asia (or Indo China as you like to call it ) as a few examples.Especially during the COLD WAR. Russia were the EVIL BAD GUYS RIGHT?? We were all brainwashed to believe that werent we?? It was a case of a choice between the better EVIL which was America. Unfortunitly under the cover of the cold war America set the stage for whats happening now!! Afghanistan and Iraqi were played with by America! Do your research on black ops and Americas influence , thats not including American globalised commercialism which has sweeped and enslaved the world.

11) America has come to the stage where it doesnt have to plant stories and create cover ups, it does what it wants and doesnt care. America is out for America and America ONLY.

12) China sees a war with America as INEVITABLE!! It WILL happen one day because China is the rising super power. Its about who controls the resources! China has already done war excersizes practising attacking American cities! This is a FACT. The greatest threat to America is NOT TERRORISM it is CHINA! And no I havent just popped a pill a shoot up, or smoking a spliff ..I just READ THIS FROM A QUOTE FROM A HIGH RANKING AMERICAN GENERAL!

13) What you sow you surely reap. What goes around comes around. KARMA. Call it what you want, it happens to the best of them (happened to England, once the great british empire, now trying to drive out people from her ex colonies...Britian has become a colony of her EX colonies!) The same fate awaits America. Its bad enough as it is. Her evil is already knocking on her door, another attack , another war?? More countries in the mid east go down?? We are talking COSMIC balance on the scales. America will have to pay already for what shes done...lets hope she doesnt go ape **** because the end result will be America in ashes. Will China tolerate another American act of power?? Will Russia?? (dont write off Russia...they still hate Americans and have an army reading to fight)


And YES children the LAST TWO POINTS ARE FACT! Dont believe me?? Research it and PROVE ME WRONG PLEASE! Im waiting!

[edit on 16-7-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
4) The Muslims (well certain factions anyway) HATED ALL AMERICANS enough to ATTACK the World Trade Centre BEFORE any Iraqi war

I guess you really think just about the terrorist groups but that statement is formulated very badly.
America was damn damn popular in muslim countries before 9/11 and its aftermath.

I still don't get why INTERNATIONAL(not just a US problem) report as if muslims always shared a common hate against the US. Guess some people think we need to put the blame somewhere..."they hate us, that's why we have the war against terror", heh.

[edit on 16-7-2004 by shoo]

lol, if american goes down, we'll sure as hell take all of you with us. but seriously im sad to know many people in the world have the same feelings. but o well i guess it goes with the territory.

shoo:

Jakomo your reply against crmanager is unjustified and you see him just as a simple puppet. You assumed alot and accused him of many things. Might reconsider your post?

I actually see him as a complete puppet, I'm glad that came across. HE'S the one who is saying "I killed 3 people for what I believe in, what have YOU done?". As if by him ending three people's lives somehow makes him a better person than those who haven't.

And he asks:

Have you ever taken a stand? Not just you triangle boy. Everyone in this site.

And my answer is yes. I have taken many, many stands, at great risk to myself, for what I believe in. And I didn't need to have an M16 and body armor to do it. I didn't need to do things unquestioningly for any superiors.

Being a soldier is one SURE WAY to make sure that you CAN'T take a stand against the war. Even if you totally disagree with it, you'll end up in the stockade for questioning it. Or dead.

And if he agrees with war, especially in this instance where it was used as a FIRST resort, rather than a LAST resort, then he's an ignorant puppet.


The most anti-war people I know SERVED in the military.

Army is great fun. Join up, make friends, and if your lucky watch them get their bodies blown up before your eyes then get sent home to be hated by the very people you thought you were fighting for. Dont believe me? Vietnam vets anyone???


Oh and we are off the topic..terrorism or CHINA??? My monies on either Russia or China knocking the **** out of the mid west some time in the future.

China?? Russia?? Anyone??

Thats after the terroists have had a go. Actually in some ways the terrorist are more formidable for the following reasons:

1) They arent afraid to die for what they believe in
2) They dont eat Mc Donalds
3) They dont listen to Britney
4) They see America as Satan itself
5)They see America as Satan itself
6) They see America as Satan itself

get the point?

[edit on 16-7-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

My problem is that it could be like that:

He was soldier and guarding coalition troops that brought food and medicine into post-war Iraq. While that happened they have been attacked several times and to save his and his mates lifes, he had to kill 3 stupid humans that thought it would be better to kill the people that want to help their fellow citizens.

Not very likely? Who knows. I don't know and as long as he hasn't told us any details about this I am not gonna throw the stone

I agree with you, nothing to disagree but I am not a supporter of those extreme opinions based on assumptions. Sure the "story" above is the mother of all assumptions but I won't really comment on him till I know more.

Shoo, I knew ther was a reason I love Germany and the people there.

Jakamo, I was shot 3 times. The number I killed was something I WILL take with me to my grave. Any sane person hates war. Any one who says they love war has never been in it.

But war is a necessary evil. Without war you and all of your beer drinking, moose chasing Took wearing Canadian bretheren would be speaking German or Russian.

Grow up. Rioting in front of WTO meetings is great if you are a person who can't get a job.

crmanager - you've been shot three times? hahahahaha
spare us the computer-dweeb machismo. PLEASE.

People who've been in wars don't talk like you. If you're
going to pretend to be a grizzled combat veteran you
might want to change your shtick.

How come weenies who hide behind behind computers are always
the first ones to condone others going to war? It's so like, Trenchcoat Mafia. If you were shot 3 times, crmanager you must be a REALLY TOUGH DUDE. Please go to Iraq. Now. You'll "whip" those insurgents in a flash.



To everyone else: do whatever you can to get our troops home. Contact
your congressman. Write letters to the editors of newspapers in major cities. Voice your opinion to as many people as you can. Join veterans
groups - many exist which oppose this war.

shoo: Yep, you have a point. I jumped to a conclusion based on his wording, which I assume was well thought out.

was in war. I did kill people. I was shot 3 times. I would do it again. Because I choose to be FOR something.

No explanation, and there seems to be a certain amount of PRIDE in that statement.. EVEN if these people were trying to destroy your convoy, and you blew them away, if you feel proud for killing them, you are a murderer.

Every single soldier I ever met (I did two research papers where I had to talk to Vietnam vets and some old WWII ones), they were ALL to a certain extent ashamed of some of their actions.

When they had to kill someone, even in combat, they did it because they had to, but NONE of them expressed any amount of pride in the actual killing.

Him saying "Yeah I killed 3 people, what have YOU done?" makes me wonder about him. I killed people because I believed in something? Believed in what? WAR?

Anyway, I'll wait for his response before I delve deeper into any conjecture

Thanks for the perspective though, Shoo.

BushBlows,

Weeeeellllllllll. You are one clever dude. You figured me out. I am just a pathalogical Liar. Man you are so smart. I would love to sit and discuss with you but I have to go back to the adult table and finish Thanksgiving dinner. Sit here with the kids and be good.

Your experience with war vets must be so long and colorful.

Support our troops against ignorance. Call your Congressmen and tell the to give the troops all they need.

It does not matter how many people you kill, or how many you got shot, I have plenty of war heroes stories in my family, one thing about the ones that are still alive, war is something you will never forget and it will last you a life time.

Back to bush and bashing his mistake into going to Iraq it goes to the same thing the deed is done now we are stuck with the results, and next thing to do is to get the moron out of the white house.

And I agree with the member that said this topic is giving a lot of heated debate in ATS and is just going to keep coming.

War is not fun but someone has to do it and sometimes it is necessary we cant become a bunch of happy idiots who will never fight with ourselves its just human nature to kill or compete and to many countries out there hate the US because they are wannabies the are dam jealous even though we have saved their arse in the past but don't wry about it like someone said it comes with the terretory

Also im not done yet calm down folks.

quote: Originally posted by WestPoint23
cuz they knew saddam didn't have WMD�s but because of the oil for food scandal which gave a whole lot of illegal money to Germany France and Russia.

Oh can you provide a link that proofs that the german government was involved in this + you are talking about absolutly high amounts of money. Now proof it!

As you won't be able to, I suggest you shouldn't post such stuff. Thanks in advance.

Germany and France and Russia all took bribes from Saddam Hussein during the oil for food scandal that is why they opposed the war read this link and there are plenty of others.

www.foxnews.com...



[edit on 16-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
www.foxnews.com...

Now, nothing against Foxnews but what should that link proof?
Just saw "Because we keep hearing from John Kerry that he could have gotten more United Nations' support but now that we see the level of corruption, especially with France and Germany and Russia."

It brought high gas prices, fall in the economy, and loos of jobs. Everything that America "a great nation" is loosing. Thanks to Bush ofcourse. Make the right decisoion this years election. Vote for anyone other than Bush, whoever it might be.

Originally posted by Jakomo
crmanager:

I was in war. I did kill people. I was shot 3 times. I would do it again. Because I choose to be FOR something.

By the way, every person with a room temperature I.Q is for "Peace."

Haha, yeah. And yet the Armed Forces are chock full of total geniuses, absolute Mensa material. You choose to be FOR murder, I choose to be against it. That's the difference. Taking another person's life is murder. War or not. Hope you can deal, psychologically, with it in the years to come, you seem like a very thoughtful, well-centred person. HAHA!

Have you ever taken a stand? Not just you triangle boy. Everyone in this site.

Have you ever put yourself in harms way? Not just your body. YOU. Taken a stand that could ruin your reputation, put you out of work. Cost you your family. Cost someone else their life.

Have I ever made a stand on something that may cost someone ELSE their life? No, I can't say I have, that's called Criminally Negiligent Homicide in my country, what about in yours?

Big deal that you were in the Army, you got TOLD what to do, you were ORDERED what to do, you were INDOCTRINATED on how to think. And like a good little sheep you did what you were told. Sorry, like a good little murderous, mindless sheep.

By the way, I have a lot of respect for soldiers, just zero respect for ignorance.

Man here we go. I too served time in the military. I chose to fight for our country's freedoms and safety. Be it fighting in Iraq, Afghan, Somolia, what have you, I faught. I faught hard, and I lost many friends in those battles.

Yet, here we have Lt. Armchair Jakomo, oh wise scholar, preaching about the military personal being 'murderous, mindless, sheep". Man I've never been so insulted in my life.

People that are against the military never really bothered me. But to call a military personel a murderous sheep is the lowest blow you can dish. If it werent for us murderous sheep, you wouldnt been sitting at your computer spouting off bullsh!t like you're a man of wisdom.

Perhaps the USofA should disband its military, open our borders to everyone, get out the flowers and peace signs and sing kum-by-ya and pretend everything is okay in the other nations of the world. And when it eventually overflows into our backyard, the armchair warriors will be screaming for world peace!

No, I have a better idea.. we'll keep the world safe by fighting evil dictators and disbanding terrorist organizations the best we can. We'll kill ourselves and our enemy's so you can sit here in your comfortable home and talk about how evil and vile we are. We'll keep the tensions between fighting nations at bay while you speculate on how we need to acheive world peace. We'll defend our nations safety and die in a foxhole in the sand thousands of miles away from you to defend your right to call us murderous, mindless, sheep.

By the way, I have a lot of respect for civilians, just zero respect for ignorance.


Edit: Excessive Quoting (mispaste, sorry)

[edit on 16-7-2004 by rwsdakota]

[edit on 16-7-2004 by rwsdakota]

[edit on 16-7-2004 by rwsdakota]

Originally posted by rwsdakota

People that are against the military never really bothered me. But to call a military personel a murderous sheep is the lowest blow you can dish.

No it should not bother you, I believe that our arm forces are the best in the world and their training is the best, their patriotism should be an example to other nations, and we Americans are proud of them.

And what Americans have to understand is that our troop�s Commander in Chief is the president and they have to follow their Commander in Chief orders and for that we can not blame them for what they do. It is wrong to talk about our troops in an offensive way they are just doing a job for what they have been training for.


[edit on 16-7-2004 by marg6043]

I'm joining the military in one year after high school and for people to talk down on military personnel and not to support them in a time of war is the lowest level you can reach not every one who goes in the military is a killer warmonger or stupid some people go to peruse a honorable career and do what they think is right if you don't agree with that fine you are entitled to your opinion but don't make fun or talk down on our serving men and women

For all those who say the people of Iraq are better off with out the evil dictator Saddam, please tell me how the hell do you know? Did u live under his reign? I really dont recall ever hearing the Iraqi people asking us to save them from Saddam. How do we know they were not perfectly content under his rule? Perhaps he was evil perhaps he was mad but were the iraqis really that sad? He was a leader to them who understood them far better then we ever will. He knew how to uphold their will! An iron fist to rule an iron people. I cant believe people actually think they are better without him. When you guys say we brought them freedom, do you mean the freedom to cower in fear as apaches and ac-130 fly over head bringing them hell on earth? Or perhaps you mean the freedom to walk down the street and get shot in the face or explode or have your house destroyed? This war was fought for one purpose, to make our already astronically wealthy corporations that much wealthier. Our government could give a $hit about those people. Remember in Farenheit 9/11 the soldier who asked where is the justice in a truck driver getting paid thousands to drive a few miles up the road?!?! If this war was about the people of Iraq then that money would be going to them and not the associates of american corporation. It is all too depressing to think about. Our country has so many problems!!! Nothing is being fixed here why the heck do we need to fix problems of other countrys? Is ecomonic prosperity for the already wealthy really that important??? I guess if we were in charge we would see it differently. But we are not in charge we will never be in charge and things will continue to spiral downwards. I do have so much respect for all of the soldier out there. I just do not think you guys are fighting for the right reason. Then again...wat do i know, im only 20....