China launches new type of sub, American intelligence "suprised"

Originally posted by katt06
this is complete crap. there would be no way in Heaven or hell that china would invent technology that would surpass ours.

Well, why US is so furious when EU is discussing lifting millitary sanction? Wait for the day, when you wake up and US is superpower no more.

I see dollar is losing ground everyday, Euro gaining strength steadily. I love to see the day Yuan disassociates with US.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Im not talking about the cat and mouse game im talking about if the Chinese subs fire torpedoes this will reveal their position to US subs near by and they will be eliminated by American subs.

Sub vs Sub usually use torpedo, and as far as I know torpedo's range
is about 50 kilometers (I don't know US, this data is from Russian's torpedo
performance). So if sub is in this range, it can launch attack immediately.
But if it is out of this range, then sub will have time to play hidden tactics.

I still think best way is using P3C, P3C can arrive the position in minutes,
but sub may can arrive the position in hours.

Originally posted by katt06
this is complete crap. there would be no way in Heaven or hell that china would invent technology that would surpass ours.

Who said that China surpassed US ? Actually I think you are right, China
can never surpass US technically. But this is also not crap, just not every
country will be Iraq and be bombed arbitrarily. Chinese navy strategy
is near sea strategy, it is completely defensive. We just make sure
our security in our defensive line.

Well, why US is so furious when EU is discussing lifting millitary sanction? Wait for the day, when you wake up and US is superpower no more.

Well why are the chicoms so furious about the US supplying Taiwan with weapons and military equipment?
Yeah ok zcheng China is going to be the new superpower not anytime soon buddy, Just as the USSR couldn't keep up with US same will happen to china

I see dollar is losing ground everyday, Euro gaining strength steadily. I love to see the day Yuan disassociates with US.

Yeah im sure you would like to see that day unfortunately keep dreaming about it cuz it wont happen anytime soon the US economy is growing 4% best it has been in decades.

Sub vs Sub usually use torpedo, and as far as I know torpedo's range is about 50 kilometers (I don't know US, this data is from Russian's torpedo performance). So if sub is in this range, it can launch attack immediately. But if it is out of this range, then sub will have time to play hidden tactics.

I still think best way is using P3C, P3C can arrive the position in minutes,
but sub may can arrive the position in hours.

xbin that is why each carrier fleet has 3 subs so we would have a grand total of 21 subs and even more anti sub ships so im sure one of the subs will be near an attacking Chinese sub.

Also the US used to do it with the Russians we could do it with the Chinese our subs would stalk and wait out near Chinese harbor and wait for your subs to come back to port they will have to cuz if they don't they will have to surface if they do that they are gone

Originally posted by WestPoint23
xbin that is why each carrier fleet has 3 subs so we would have a grand total of 21 subs and even more anti sub ships so im sure one of the subs will be near an attacking Chinese sub.

Sub will also consider the ways to attack and flee away. One important
fact is sub's attack range. I remember once read a post quoting a sub
captain said we will have chance if we can attack from 200 kilometers
away. You know the farther you can launch attack, the more chance
you have opportunity to flee away.

I guess our current performance of our 039 sub is 120 kilometers anti-ship
cruise missile, about 50 kilometers of anti-ship torpedo, and about
16 kilometers of anti-sub torpedo. Of course this will be more risky
of one way mission.

But the new Kilo sub we booked from Russia can let us launch attack
from 250 kilometers away. Beside, China now also has super-sonic
long range anti-ship cruise missile, but I did not see its sub under-water
launch type comes out yet. But I think we will soon see it comes out
and eqiups our new subs.

We will not say it must can flee away, we just say its surviviablity will
increase.

Originally posted by WestPoint23


xbin that is why each carrier fleet has 3 subs so we would have a grand total of 21 subs and even more anti sub ships so im sure one of the subs will be near an attacking Chinese sub.

Also the US used to do it with the Russians we could do it with the Chinese our subs would stalk and wait out near Chinese harbor and wait for your subs to come back to port they will have to cuz if they don't they will have to surface if they do that they are gone

west point you ask any captain to send his ship within 5 miles of a chinese harbour and he will tell you to go to hell and back again. you know why? because they have ASW boats about harbours so the chance of dieing is very much higher, now if you said like 50 miles up river or out at sea i might understand but out near the harbour? get real,no captain no matter how loyal puts his men above the mission ,would you risk your men to kill a couple of ships with a high chance of death when you could do it easily at sea?
also 3 subs going along a carrier wont do much good if they are fired upon thier first concern is the torpedo NOT the sub. as you have said they would use counter measures now while the sub is dodgeing around the enemy could be fireing at the carrier. now about the ASW boats, one torp and its dead. they dont need to sink it just hit the shaft.
also why are you going on about our 21 subs? i mean whooptyf***ingdo
do you think the 3 subs are always gona be around the carriers? no they aint they'll be on missions most of the time. but they will keep like on or 2 at the carrier to protect it.

Yes, nuke sub is extremely risky to go to the shallow water area. Firstly
it will lose all its advantage over diesel sub in shallow water area;
Second, even the fishing boat with fishing net can block the sub.
Chinese costal fishman all have this kind of training.

Originally posted by xbin
Yes, nuke sub is extremely risky to go to the shallow water area. Firstly
it will lose all its advantage over diesel sub in shallow water area;
Second, even the fishing boat with fishing net can block the sub.
Chinese costal fishman all have this kind of training.

The whole point of this is that the Chinese navy will have to come out and engage the US carrier fleet if it wishes to negate it as a striking force.
The PLAN and PLAAF etc will have to come out and play (or die sitting in their harbors or reventments). I doubt any of the US force would engage in Littoral warfare untill the enemy forces will softened up some.

In reagard to the disadvantages of Nuc's in littoral regions, the Virgina class SSN is supposed to address this...

Nice to see some submarine warfare experts present - even thou much of what happens down there is still classified.

Devilwasp - your apparent ability to paint the most imcompetent US navy baffles me. Even more so is their apparent succeptability to fluke shots and the occurance of the statistically improbable is sometimes quite comical. I love the elaborate worst case scenarios that you generate. - "oh the 3 subs wont be protecting the carriers - they will be off stuck in chinese fishing nets"

Originally posted by Vanguard
Nice to see some submarine warfare experts present - even thou much of what happens down there is still classified.

Hey I learned all I need to know about submarine warfare from Tom Clancy But really, who would have access to any of it? And if they did why would they risk spending time in Leavenworth by posting stuff online? You are right we all speculating or usuing educated guesswork.. What else do we have

Originally posted by Vanguard


Devilwasp - your apparent ability to paint the most imcompetent US navy baffles me. Even more so is their apparent succeptability to fluke shots and the occurance of the statistically improbable is sometimes quite comical. I love the elaborate worst case scenarios that you generate. - "oh the 3 subs wont be protecting the carriers - they will be off stuck in chinese fishing nets"

did i say the US navy was incompatent? no , if it was a british crew we would have the same problem and react the same considering both our nations train closely.
all im saying is that CBG is no completley secure from all attacks as many people believe.
i said that not ALL will be gaurding the carrier ,do you really think the US navy or ANY navy for that fact would leave a CBG with out atleast a single SSN? no i dont think so. also that is not a worst case scenario if you want i can give a few worst case scenarios involving carriers. do you want that?

Some people seem to have a vast database on the flaws of US military hardware - a topic which the US government seems to have made publicly availiable given the vast citations from the "up the Yuan" group.

Regarding submarine warfare - its messy business - one which the US has conducting for quite sometime now. I am sure military strategists have considered and possibly encountered the majority of outcomes that can take place and im sure in wartime/full ready status they will be adequetly prepared what ever the outcome.

Devilwasp - im not going to comment on sub tactics - im sure you will construct some elaborate counter

also 3 subs going along a carrier wont do much good if they are fired upon thier first concern is the torpedo NOT the sub. as you have said they would use counter measures now while the sub is dodgeing around the enemy could be fireing at the carrier.

The Chinese sub is going to fire on one of the three subs and the remaining two wont be sitting there doing nothing plus all of this speculation we are doing wont happen this way but its not bad talking about it.




[edit on 21-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by katt06

Originally posted by Samiralfey
According to the WT-article, China has developed a new type of submarine to the full suprise of US intelligence. These subs are powered by diesel-electric and are so quiet in the water that it is difficult for U.S. forces to detect and track them.

this is complete crap. there would be no way in Heaven or hell that china would invent technology that would surpass ours.

Well its possible. When designing weaponry a country may simply think differently. If you look in medival times anti-cavalry weapons such as the pike is no more advanced than say a long sword. Yet they have there own strenghts and weaknesses. Basically China might simply go for something new that nobody thought of. And China could easily conceal a new type of sub. Just use a covered shipyard to keep the satellites from noticing anything. Now as for actualy outmatching us technologicly I doubt that they've been able to make a completly superior sub just yet. A few more generations and they might catch up. "If you can't beat the champion at their own game, simply change the game rules".

[edit on 7/21/2004 by cyberdude78]

Originally posted by WestPoint23


The Chinese carrier is going to fire on one of the three subs and the remaining two wont be sitting there doing nothing plus all of this speculation we are going wont happen this way but its not bad talking about it.

by carrier u mean sub right?
and west point a kilo can engage multiple targets not one at a time.

[edit on 19/07/04 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by Vanguard
Devilwasp - im not going to comment on sub tactics - im sure you will construct some elaborate counter

thank you
nice to see that i get credit for my work

Originally posted by Vanguard
Some people seem to have a vast database on the flaws of US military hardware - a topic which the US government seems to have made publicly availiable given the vast citations from the "up the Yuan" group.

yeah this is true with every military force. its just cause your troops are in the light and when they mess up they get hounded for it.

Originally posted by Vanguard
Regarding submarine warfare - its messy business - one which the US has conducting for quite sometime now. I am sure military strategists have considered and possibly encountered the majority of outcomes that can take place and im sure in wartime/full ready status they will be adequetly prepared what ever the outcome.

you can never be too prepared.
we learned that in the falklands.
its pretty hard to think up sub stratagies cause it really depends on the terrain and the eviroment the subs in doesnt it?

Originally posted by RockerDom


Because America funds about 30% of their economy. Which is why they would never attack us.

he he he. your funny. no offence. but if china attacks tiawan, the us will be involved. china does not have to attack the US directly to being the US into a shooting war. which is even worse is that tiawan knows were their big brother (the US) will come to its aid if china gets any brights ideas and they will act with big balls cause we'll smash anything that trys to get at them.

yeah and most likely taiwan will start pushing its luck.
thats the thing the US needs to worry about.