Do you feel like Having to Work is un-natural?

reply to post by GeminiSky


Hi GeminiSky

You know, Im your age (24) and have worked for about 8 of them..
I feel like I am missing out on about everything. Right now, I save up to leave for a year or two and then see whats coming.. Cuz I'm tired of working all day long and not get anything in return (exept the money to leave from it all) =) Good luck to you dude, no matter what you may end up doing in the future!


Peace to ya man! =)

sKEKKE

Having to work is very natural....that I can tell you, BUT what kind of work you have to do...is an entirely different issue.

If you wanto work then work and if you dont want to work then stop wasting your time and do what you want.

reply to post by the_0bserver85


Yes, off course working is natural.. Thats not the point.. We all have to work, but Its quite differnt to be working for you/thy self, than to work for a guy who is getting rich and you're not even dough you are the one working the long hours, and thats the majority of people.. I think alot of ppl feel used in that sense.. Thats just my view.. =)

Peace

reply to post by kevincobler


You and me both know it aint that simple.. =)

Peace

Working isn't unnatural every animal has to 'work' or 'exert energy' in order to gather what it needs to survive but I think working 40 hours a week is not necessary in this age and quite unnatural. I don't know of any other top animal like lions, tigers, bears, etc that have to spend 8 hours a day to satisfy its needs. The problem is you have a lot of artificial needs. You can be happy with less. I personally never intend to work for more than 25 hours a week. I'm too busy having fun with life!

An average Ukrainian makes only $164.75 a month. They live. They have fun. They get laid. They socialize, laugh, play, and enjoy life. You don't need much!

reply to post by GeminiSky


Yes work is "Un-natural".
But how "Natural" is driving a car? Using electricity? Traveling by aeroplane? How natural is posting a message on a website?
You're just stressed out from working too hard, I know how you feel. Same age same type job.
Take a nice long vacation, clear your head and if you still feel the same... There are plenty of communes where you can go live "Naturally" ie. without any modern conveniences that, as unnatural as they are, I'm sure you depend on them as much as I do.

I'm 26 and I felt like you a few years ago, when I was working 12 to 16 hours a day because I wanted my check to be bigger and bigger, but I eventually got tired and stopped.

I stumbled upon some interesting books that talk about labour and learned that your job is just a part of your life, not your life. The books I stumbled upon are Aliens V.S. Predator the very first one that came out. Basically the discussion is that we as humans in a distant future have relied too much on the clutches of technology, and the basic instinct of man; (the animal instinct) needs to be put on an equal footing with nature to bring some adventure, challlenge, and danger back to his life. Another book that is very interesting is the communist manifesto, no it's not forbidden to read it, just because we live in a capitalist society, we shouldn't feel prohibited from reading it or it should not be a taboo, the message at it's core about communism is not of any interest to me; I am a capitalist; however there are valid points specially when it came out in the late 1800's a time when workers were basically treated like crap, the points raised about having an 8 hour labor day, not a 12 to 16 hour day, about children taken out of the workforce, and about a job alienating you from your own life as a human being, time which you will never have back, are definately some good points that can tell you a lot about making a good decision on wether it's really worth it to be working 12 hours a day everyday. I helped me a lot, hopefully it helps you as well.

reply to post by GeminiSky


Welcome to the modern world.

We are for all intents & purposes, factory fodder, the grind is what we are here to do so the people that actually matter dont have to do it. This is why there is no "out", you will always owe some oganization money for some reason, be it for taxes or permits this is to prevent you ever becoming truly self sufficient, because even if you made your own food, power, shelter, you would still need their cash, and to get their cash you need to be part of their system (unless you steal it I suppose)

It all comes down to the one true god, the only god that people really care about, PROFIT, simple as that, we get paid beans while the share holders make billions of our backs, they could double our money and still make a fortune,. but again If we had that much money we could actually do something for ourselves , for our families, this is why most of us, if we're lucky just manage to "break even" at the end of the month, just enough money to get by and thats to keep you exactly where you are.

The system needs to be destroyed, the "economy" needs to die, every bit of it, unfrotrunately people have become to dependant on it so until they are willing to help kill it, us, our kids and probably their after that will remain slaves!

While profit is more important than people this world will reimain the sh*thole it currently is, ONLY WE CAN CHANGE IT. And if you thinks it bad for you, think about the people in china making our Iphones & LCD TV's and everything else for that matter, I have probably made more money in the time its taken me to post this than they do in a week!

It would be nice to be yourself and just live for yourself, but at the end of the day you can't be looking after just yourself. The moment you have a partner or children, any dependents, other family you need to look after. . . you can't escape and be an island.

You need money and that requires work.

It is unnatural to NOT have to work.

Feeling that you should not have to work smacks of the socialist "Im entitled to everything and more, and not have to work for it" mindset.

The Western governments who hand out everything on a silver platter are to blame for this.

Until recently if you lived in Ireland, you were better off on welfare than working a minimum wage job. You made more, and obviously had more free time, with little to no demands from the welfare agency to find a real job or better yourself. This is a big problem, and countries like Greece, Spain and Ireland and more are now suffering for these behaviours and the USA is not far behind.

Study after study have proven that in todays age, people in the West have more free time than ever before in the past, yet we complain more than ever it would seem. I for one enjoy my life. I work a decent job and have enough money to afford to go on a nice trip once a year with my wife. Not bad! After all i could live in the Middle Ages with no hope of a real vacation ever.

Originally posted by S3ns1bl3
reply to post by GeminiSky
It all comes down to the one true god, the only god that people really care about, PROFIT, simple as that, we get paid beans while the share holders make billions of our backs, they could double our money and still make a fortune,. but again If we had that much money we could actually do something for ourselves , for our families, this is why most of us, if we're lucky just manage to "break even" at the end of the month, just enough money to get by and thats to keep you exactly where you are.

The underlined portions of this are entirely correct. Most people only get enough to get by, even though the factory owners - or owners of whatever business you're working in - could easily double your salary without losing too much money.

Well, maybe not double. Doubling the salary of every worker in the company would probably bankrupt it. But still, yes, they could easily afford a pay raise.

But they won't. Up until this point, I agree with you. It's when you start ascribing malicious motives to the company heads that you start getting off track.

The corporate executives (usually) aren't trying to consciously keep you stuck at the upper-middle-class payment level. But, first and foremost, they are running a business. That means that they're going to obey the laws of economics. In this case, the relevant law is that, in order to maximize revenue, you need to buy low and sell high.

When you look for a job, you are selling your services. Companies are looking to buy your services. They want to buy the cheapest labor they can without sacrificing quality.

So, in the case of most people, there are hundreds of thousands of potential workers out there. If you don't want to work for a salary of X dollars because you want X + 1000 dollars, well, that's too bad; there's quite definitely someone out there in the crowd who's willing to take the job for X dollars. If that person can do the job just as well as you can, why should the company pay you X + 1000 dollars when they can get the same product for X dollars?

This is also the reason that company executives get such amazing amounts of money. When someone with the skill set necessary to be a corporate executive shows up, they're part of a very small crowd. There are only a handful of people with the ability to run an entire company, so their services are in extremely high demand. As such, they can ask for almost any amount of money they want, since there's no one else out there willing to take the job for less. The company has to hire them, because there's no one else who can do the job.

But the principle still holds: company owners want to make as much money for as little investment as possible. That's the founding principle of business - as you said, profit is the one thing business cares about. That's the point of business. That's why we have business. If people couldn't make money by starting a business, they wouldn't start a business.

So yes, company owners make huge amounts of money. They're raking it in hand over fist, because they buy labor cheap and sell the end product high.

The end result, of course, is that those at the bottom of the totem pole make just enough to get by, while those at the top make enough to afford their own luxury airliners. So yeah, people in the middle class are usually stuck right where they are, unless they take it upon themselves to improve their skill set; but this isn't because the company executives are sitting in their offices twirling their mustaches and saying "cut the workers' pay another ten cents, myah!". It's just the way economics works.

Working is not unnatural... Working so that a government can take half of it in tax's, then everytime you buy something you pay tax again, and then everytime you are billed for over inflated fuel you are taxed again...
Work is not unntaural...slavery is and most of us are working just to give three quarters of our pay cheque back to our slave masters...
Time to tune into freedom and drop out!

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
Working is not unnatural... Working so that a government can take half of it in tax's, then everytime you buy something you pay tax again, and then everytime you are billed for over inflated fuel you are taxed again...
Work is not unntaural...slavery is and most of us are working just to give three quarters of our pay cheque back to our slave masters...
Time to tune into freedom and drop out!

This is exactly what's hapenning in UK.

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
Working is not unnatural... Working so that a government can take half of it in tax's, then everytime you buy something you pay tax again, and then everytime you are billed for over inflated fuel you are taxed again...

I don't think that you actually lose half of your income to taxation, unless you're one of the big earners that this thread is railing against. This picture illustrates the tax rates for high- and low-income citizens in the United States for the past few decades:



So you actually lose about ten percent of your total income to income taxes.

And I don't think that anyone would argue that taxation is entirely unnecessary. Governments are, first and foremost, tasked with maintaining the country's prosperity. This means that they need to defend the country from external threats, maintain the country's roadways, and pay the salaries of politicians.

Of course, there are actually many, many more things that governments do, but for the sake of discussion we'll just use those three, since we don't really need a hugely in-depth look at it to get the idea.

Everyone who lives in the United States enjoys the protection of the United States military corps, as well as the use of the federally -constructed and -maintained highways. Even ignoring the politicians' salaries, this is a huge amount of money required yearly in order to execute the most basic functions of government. Where can they get this money other than through taxation? Would you prefer that they robbed houses for spare change?

Then we have sales tax. Again, the amount of money that is required to maintain the country each year is absolutely staggering. Ten percent off the top from America's households simply doesn't cut it. Sales tax is put in place as a way to fill the gap.

Now, you can argue that tax rates are too high, but ten percent isn't really all that much. Yes, the government wastes a lot of money, but that's a problem with the federal budget rather than the taxation system, and it would be better to take it up with your Congressman than with the IRS.

For all intents and purposes, when speaking economically, governments are huge businesses which provide maintenance for a country. You are taxed because the company has to collect on its services. If you don't want to pay for the government's actions, leave the country. If you're here, after all, you're enjoying the same benefits that paying customers (citizens) do, but without paying - in other words, if you don't pay taxes, you're stealing.

So the government isn't just taking your money for no reason. Again, there are no Snidely Whiplash machinations going on. It's just business. The government does what it has to do to maintain the country. If you're unhappy with the services provided, vote to change policy or leave the country.

As for bloated oil prices, that's not really the government's fault. Again, it's simple economics. Demand for oil is high. Amazingly so, in fact. Supply of oil is low. Not incredibly low, but lower than the demand. That makes prices skyrocket. And, yes, businesses jack up the price even further. Again, they're running businesses for one reason and one reason only: to make money. They aren't trying to destroy the lower classes; they're just making as much money as they can.

Demand for oil is fairly static. We need oil. It's not a choice. We have to have it. This means that the price can go as high as it wants to, and we will pay it, because we have to. The only thing regulating oil prices are the companies themselves. This means that there are two things which might happen: a price war and a group pricing.

In the former, the companies compete with each other, lowering their prices as far as they are willing to. We have to have the oil, but we don't want to pay more than absolutely necessary, so we'll buy from the company which offers us the lowest price. This won't lower the price by too much, but it does keep it from going completely astronomical. In this scenario, only one oil company gets the money from the consumers, because they're the only one that is charging the low price.

In the latter, the companies get together and decide to share revenue by setting a common price for oil which all of them will charge. This means that the price can go as high or low as they want it to without any company missing out. All of them get some revenue, but it's not as much as if they had gone into a price war. Odds are that this is what's going on right now.

So even the oil prices aren't evil conspiracies to keep the working man in bondage slavery. Your current condition is very, very far from slavery, in fact. I appreciate hyperbole as much as the next man, but that's going a little far. The fact that you're pretty much stuck in your current condition isn't a conspiracy against you, and it certainly isn't slavery. It's just economics.

Everyone has a place in life . Though it's up to the individual to decide what that place is and what their ultimate purpose on this earth with end up becoming . Your legacy to mankind if you will .

The sensation that your ave joe job is a waste of your life is correct . For those who disagree with that notion i say in rebuttal you only need to look at the lives lived that inspire all of us to know that theres more to life than your desk job . Any job that fails to satisfy is falling short of Your Talent , Your passion and your purpose .

Regardless of your believe system , There should be no more sobering of a fact than that you too will die . A 150 years from now or in 5 min .

So maybe its time for a plan and a few carefully calculated risks , but more importantly a choice . Do you settle for the lifeless existence of the status quo ? or do you like the individuals who define our species move forward past fear and apathy and become the architect of his or her own destiny ?

After all many will tell you to be "sensible" and "realistic" they might as well say complacent and obedient .

Maybe your an artist .

Perhaps a leader .

or coder .

You have some ability that you excel at .

At the end of the day one things for sure your purpose on this planet will be fulfilled.
Either your the guy working at starbucks working for someone else's dream , re filling overpriced drinks for people till your 60 .

Or your the guy who just ordered a coffee for that caffeine buzz that you need to finish your crazy idea that could change your world and everyone else's .

The choice is yours .


Personally i worked at Apple for 3 years before i was inspired by the same passion that founded it to leave and start my own company .

I've never been happier and i have never been more wealthy … oh and wealth is not about money its about the quality of life you leed .

This speech helped me in my decision i hope it helps you in yours .

www.youtube.com...

Hi, I understand where you are coming from, but to extend I think I know what your problem is.

Being in a cubicle or sat inside all day is NOT NATURAL. Working crazy hours just to be able to live and eat is not really much of a life, I know a lot of people think the same way.

However, if you truly want to live off the land it is EXTREMELY do-able (if that's even a word!). if you earn as much as you say, it would be easy as hell to sell everything you have, move to somewhere like thai land and live out doors in the open, grow your own food, or even work freelance out there a few days a week and still have an amazing life. Hell someone I know bought a 6 bedroom property with pool out there for 20g! it is certainly more than do-able if that's the life you choose.

However I think the real problem you are suffering from is the job you do.

I'm lucky enough to do a job I absolutely love. It barely even feels like work as it's what I enjoy doing in my free time anyway. HOWEVER... it pays f'k all. I have to work most nights doing freelance as well just to pay my bills (if you think 9-9 is long hours, try 9-2am!), and as a result have next to no social life anymore. But eventually the hard work will pay off and I'll be in a position to have more of a life.

Yet despite this I still love what I do, and other than the feeling hung-over part of getting up in the morning I wouldn't change it for anything.

I know so many people who have worked so hard to end up in a profession that they hate, my ex for example is a Solicitor and has worked her little butt off to get to where she is, earns good money and doesn't work particularly long hours... yet she is absolutely miserable and hates it.

I think the key to a happy life is finding something you love, if you have to work every damn day of your life to make a living, then you may as well spend it doing something you enjoy. No offence intended here, but flogging stuff to people probably isn't particularly satisfying or mentally challenging. For me personally I need a job that is challenging, where I always learn new things and challenge my brain.

Maybe you should think about a new career choice? And you could always invest some of your wealth to help bring in more money if you find a job you'd really love that doesn't pay as much. At 24 you're young enough to take up a complete change in direction.

reply to post by Golden Boy


You're just talking about income tax though! I'm not...
Buy a car in the UK for instance. First ofall you will pay an inflated price because of the tax. Then to put your car on the road which you have already paid thousands in tax for, you will pay road tax... The take it to petrol station to fill up and every pound you put into your tank the government takes 80pence in tax. Then you'll have to have insurance which has gone through the roof because of the extra tax...
Food!!! Because tax has gone up to 20 ercent the lorries that deliver the goods need extra fuel, so the price increases right down the line until it reaches its ultimate target...us ordinary people!
Te governments, whether they are labour, Conservative or Liberal, always tax the poor. Those who could afford the tax often have enough money to invest in clever accountants who find loopholes in the system.
All these extra tax's add up so I stand by my original assessment that in most cases the government is taking back somewhere between half and three quarters of our may cheques back in tax, while giving tax breaks to those with millions in their bank accounts.
The system is rotten to the core.

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
reply to post by Golden Boy

 

You're just talking about income tax though! I'm not...

No, I'm not. I was just using that as an example.

Even factoring in things like sales tax (which I actually did address in my post), you still don't lose nearly half of your salary to taxation. Sales tax isn't fifty percent, after all. I don't know about the UK, but over here in the States (or my region of it, anyway), it's seven percent.

So even assuming that you spend all of your income on goods which are subject to sales tax, you've only lost seventeen percent of your income. That's a sizable chunk, but it's not nearly half.

Buy a car in the UK for instance. First ofall you will pay an inflated price because of the tax. Then to put your car on the road which you have already paid thousands in tax for, you will pay road tax...

Well, I've already addressed the sales tax bit. The second bit, though - about the road tax - is actually rather unimportant. Yes, you're paying some money, but unless the UK's policies are absolutely outrageous, it's actually a negligible amount when compared to your annual income. Maybe one percent.

The take it to petrol station to fill up and every pound you put into your tank the government takes 80pence in tax.

This is true, but again, this is just a source of income for the government. I'm not arguing that the gas price isn't incredibly high - it is, as I said in my last post - but the government taxing it isn't the primary cause of this. Nor is the tax charge unreasonable; again, think of the staggering amount of money required to maintain a country.

the price increases right down the line until it reaches its ultimate target...us ordinary people!

"Target"? What "target"? Again, there's no evil force behind prices. It's just economics. See my previous posts.

Te governments, whether they are labour, Conservative or Liberal, always tax the poor.

And the rich, and everyone in between. In fact, they usually tax the rich rather more than the poor. Again, this is necessary for the government to function. Read my previous post for more information.

Those who could afford the tax often have enough money to invest in clever accountants who find loopholes in the system.

Yes, which is why we have tax avoidance laws.

Is it a perfect system? No. But it's not a system purposefully designed to keep the working man down.

All these extra tax's add up so I stand by my original assessment that in most cases the government is taking back somewhere between half and three quarters of our may cheques back in tax

I'd like to see the math on that, please. So far, you haven't really given anything to back it up.

The system is rotten to the core.

Well, it certainly sucks to be taxed. I'll agree with you on that. But that isn't because the governments are conspiring against you. Supply and demand curves are conspiring against you.

reply to post by Golden Boy

"The second bit, though - about the road tax - is actually rather unimportant. Yes, you're paying some money, but unless the UK's policies are absolutely outrageous,..." quote.

The UKs governments policies concerning tax are outrageous... Just thank your lucky stars you don't live here in "Rip-off Britain."