What has 'Anonymous' done that is worthy of support???

reply to post by Hefficide


I disagree with your post.

Applying the same logic and principals to the Civil Rights Movement, we find that only MLK was a part of the civil rights movement whereas Rosa Parks and Addie Mae Collins, Cynthia Wesley, Carole Robertson and Denise Mcnair (the 4 girls killed in the 16th street babtist church bombing in Birmingham Alabama) were not as they were not the leaders. Nor were any of the protesters who had fire-houses turned on them tearing the skin from their faces, nor were those on "Dynamite Hill" in Birmingham who had their homes torched nor were those who were beaten, arrested and even killed while protesting non-violently a part of the movement because it was not them writing the script or organizing the individual actions. Every action for a movement and for free speech is an action. Not every action it always well meaning or well thought out or done with the best of intentions - as humans are prone to mistakes... But the movement itself is a sum of ALL parts, not just the 0.1% of its leadership.

For those who fear retribution for criticizing Anonymous, your argument is invalid. If you truely understood what it was that you were criticizing, then you would clearly see that you have nothing to fear as what you are criticizing is a champion of free speech. Thus, by DEFINITION you are free to express your opinion - be it for or against Anonymous. By stating that you fear retribution, you are simply demonstrating your ignorance of the topic that you are discussing to begin with. To put it another way, if ignorance is bliss then you must be THRILLED!

Education is a funny thing. The more you educate yourself on a topic, the better you are able to make informed choices or even arguments that matter. Take a little time to really educate yourself on the subject matter that you are attempting to discuss. It will make what you have to say more fruitful and more valid.

If I gave my opinion about Anonymous, they would make my life hell. Real swell guys they are.

reply to post by YourPopRock

Originally posted by YourPopRock
reply to post by Hefficide

 

I disagree with your post.

As you are utterly entitled to.

Originally posted by YourPopRock

Applying the same logic and principals to the Civil Rights Movement, we find that only MLK was a part of the civil rights movement whereas Rosa Parks and Addie Mae Collins, Cynthia Wesley, Carole Robertson and Denise Mcnair (the 4 girls killed in the 16th street babtist church bombing in Birmingham Alabama) were not as they were not the leaders. Nor were any of the protesters who had fire-houses turned on them tearing the skin from their faces, nor were those on "Dynamite Hill" in Birmingham who had their homes torched nor were those who were beaten, arrested and even killed while protesting non-violently a part of the movement because it was not them writing the script or organizing the individual actions. Every action for a movement and for free speech is an action. Not every action it always well meaning or well thought out or done with the best of intentions - as humans are prone to mistakes... But the movement itself is a sum of ALL parts, not just the 0.1% of its leadership.

To be honest, it is beyond a stretch to compare a script kiddie to Rosa Parks. Rosa parks did something that took courage. She put herself on the line and faced real world consequences. Joining a bot net requires no such risk at all. But if thinking that downloading an .exe file makes you a freedom fighter on par with those you've listed... Hey, knock yourself out.

Originally posted by YourPopRock

For those who fear retribution for criticizing Anonymous, your argument is invalid. If you truely understood what it was that you were criticizing, then you would clearly see that you have nothing to fear as what you are criticizing is a champion of free speech. Thus, by DEFINITION you are free to express your opinion - be it for or against Anonymous. By stating that you fear retribution, you are simply demonstrating your ignorance of the topic that you are discussing to begin with. To put it another way, if ignorance is bliss then you must be THRILLED!

Pardon me, but did I state that I fear retribution from anonymous? If so, would you please point it out to me, as I am fairly sure I did not here, nor anywhere else ever say that I fear anonymous.

So, bearing that in mind, who is the one here who should be thrilled?

Originally posted by YourPopRock

Education is a funny thing. The more you educate yourself on a topic, the better you are able to make informed choices or even arguments that matter. Take a little time to really educate yourself on the subject matter that you are attempting to discuss. It will make what you have to say more fruitful and more valid.

You seem to be under the impression that you are aware of what I know or do not know. Yet in your entire post you don't actually refute my statements with anything factual or specific at all. Instead you simply make vague and condescending general remarks sprinkled with an ad hom or two.

In that regard, I more than welcome you to demonstrate where my assertions are factually incorrect.

~Heff

I will simply state this...

Before saying a "script kiddie" isn't doing anything, make sure you know what the criminal penalty is for a ddos attack is (here is a hint, look under the federal statutes).

These "script kiddies" are doing something.

reply to post by YourPopRock


I am well aware of the potential penalties for a distributed denial of service attack. I am further aware that these attacks can now be prosecuted as terrorist activities if the situation warrants.

Just as I am aware that the vast majority of people who join in these "operations" are completely unaware of the consequences - or think themselves immune either based upon the sheer number of IP's sending ICMP packets, or from being behind VPN or proxies.

You may think yourself better than the average here, which is fine and good, and you well may be. But the vast majority of anonymous have little more motive than simply to "belong" and to occupy their time.

I can assure you of this much... The people who write the code do NOT lose any sleep when an "operation" is followed by a few token arrests. Pawns are always expendable.

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide


You actually pretty much hit the nail on the head with the expendable part.

Let me explain the "We are legion"... Anonymous, we are legion. For every one of us that falls, ten will rise to take his place.

The thing that makes Anon so oddly powerful is this... It isn't an organization with a traditional power structure. Instead it is a hive... made up entirely of the pawns. That is what makes it unstoppable, uncontrollable and in some cases (unfortunately) unpredictable.

Theyve at least got the intestinal fortitude to stand up and try to do something.. A rare quality these days... In a time when many are still blindly following a corrupt , outdated system... Different times - different methods of rebellion.. And forget who said it but "A little rebellion at times does some good" (just waking up not had my coffee yet)

reply to post by Expat888


That is the point.

While millions upon millions sit home and blog and complain, some are actually out there doing something... taking action. No matter how little or how big, some action is FAR more important than no action!

Well since you said that we fear no retribution let me say that I do not support Anonymous.

Quite frankly you remind me of the "cool kids" in high school. This theory does work relatively well considering the vast majority of them are in high school. Anyway you know the kids I refer to the ones that think that everyone should look up to them and that anyone that doesn't think they are cool is either dumb or not cool.

The OP stated a few acts that were frankly more then a bit embarrassing for Anonymous. They all stank of censorship of freedom of speech in the case of Richard Simmons and the Cussing Kid site. The Youtube thing I had never heard of but honestly that is just tacky, dumb, and irresponsible. Why would you expose kids to something they have no need to see yet or don't need to see at all depending on age or what they want. Who is Anonymous to decide what is right or wrong for others? How is this any different then a government imposing they're view of the world on you.

This is in reply to Yourpoprocks. Anonymous is guilty of the same thing you claim to fight against. In fact in your own original post you actually confirmed that you are indeed guilty of censoring free speech. You quoted a case of how you censored the website of a White Supremacist. I also thoroughly enjoyed how you referred to it as a group of pawns. It makes me wonder who the King is furthermore it implies that you all don't give a s*&t about your fellow members as the whole definition of a pawn is to be knocked off to protect the kings. You also said that if you truly fear speaking your mind then you do not understand Anonymous at all. Though if the claims of the OP are true which I have no reason to doubt and have seen no proof to contradict it. It would seem that there is a reason to fear retribution if he is being told to leave ATS if he doesn't support Anonymous.

One thing that I found interesting is you keep referring to yourself as being Legion. The only other time I have heard "We are Legion" was a demonic possessions reference to how many demons were possessing the victim at one time.

reply to post by Phantom28804


Hey, I never said that I did any of this stuff. Please don't try to paint me as something or to put words into my mouth.

I think the people who did the porn under the guise of kids videos showed extremely poor taste. I can't say I remember them doing anything to poor Richard Simmons though...

reply to post by YourPopRock


Well I suppose I said you because I assumed you were part of Anonymous as your avatar seems to indicate. I was not actually saying that you did anything yourself. I meant to refer to it as the group, but yea I see how I did that sorry for that it wasn't my intention to paint it as you doing it.

reply to post by MindSpin


Listen to what ANON has to say they have some pretty smart people.

Originally posted by YourPopRock
reply to post by MindSpin

 

Operation payback isn't about paying for movies.

Operation payback is a strike back at the industry for hiring companies in India to engage in illegal hacking and DDos attacks. The recording industry decided to break the law in an attempt to protect their monopoly by hiring the Indian firms. Anon struck back.

Knowing what you are talking about makes your points far more valid...

So the industry got attacked by Anon for using Anon tactics,it's illegal for the recording industry but it's fine for Anon? Sorry but do you see the hypocrisy in that ?I would like to know how many of these Anon hackers have used the skills to line their own pockets by stealing from honest people's bank accounts or selling stolen identity's,

I support them because of Youtube Pornday...For those of you who don't know what that was about..it was about Youtube bowing down to greedy record people and taking songs off of there website for "Copy right" violations.


Seriously I'm totally with anyone who attacks the record companies after they shutdown Napster for basically no reason.

Oh and they sue Teenagers for millions of dollars , just for downloading a few songs.


Youtube deserves that sort of attack if they continue to bowdown to these greedy tyrants.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by YourPopRock

 

Just as I am aware that the vast majority of people who join in these "operations" are completely unaware of the consequences - or think themselves immune either based upon the sheer number of IP's sending ICMP packets, or from being behind VPN or proxies.

You can't use the LOIC's behind proxies. A lot of anonymous know this and take that risk. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who were concerned. You only need to check the IRC chat for that. I think you're generalising.

The people who got caught were either extremely unlucky, or didn't operate under a hive system, thus making their IP's stand out like a sore thumb. Considering the ever-growing potential of anonymous, with every action they make, they grow, the odds of getting caught become much less.

What's the other option? A global mass arrest? I think not.

You may think yourself better than the average here, which is fine and good, and you well may be. But the vast majority of anonymous have little more motive than simply to "belong" and to occupy their time.

You know this how? I'm intrigued how you have access to so much information and can generalise it into a few sentences. Fascinating.

I can assure you of this much... The people who write the code do NOT lose any sleep when an "operation" is followed by a few token arrests. Pawns are always expendable.

And I can assure you, every single arrest does not go unnoticed. Anonymous does not forget.

A good analogy of Anonymous would be the mythical Hydra.

But imagine a Hydra made from a swarm of bee's capable of both Hive thought and independent thought.

A Hydra that doesn't just exist in one place, but exists all across the planet.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

You can't use the LOIC's behind proxies. A lot of anonymous know this and take that risk. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who were concerned. You only need to check the IRC chat for that. I think you're generalising.

The people who got caught were either extremely unlucky, or didn't operate under a hive system, thus making their IP's stand out like a sore thumb. Considering the ever-growing potential of anonymous, with every action they make, they grow, the odds of getting caught become much less.

What's the other option? A global mass arrest? I think not.

Of course there won't be a global mass arrest. Logistically this would be an irrational undertaking. Actually this hive behavior simply leads to more and more support for Internet censorship. The ironic twist of it all.

But, hey, it's all an abstract as long as it's other people getting arrested. The penalties for these "crimes" are severely disproportionate and I, personally, wouldn't enjoy finding out that I was facing more time in prison than most rapists or many murderers get - plus having to pay an astronomical punitive monetary fine, simply for downloading an .exe and joining in on a group behavior. But that is the reality of the risk.

Even worse to consider that I might be a parent who wakes up one day, saddled with debt, after my teen child participated in such an "operation".

Originally posted by mr-lizard

You know this how? I'm intrigued how you have access to so much information and can generalise it into a few sentences. Fascinating.

The desire to "belong" is highly factored into the model that botnet herders utilize. Prior to the last several years the model was to utilize trojans to build bot nets. It is by far and away easier, and far less criminal to utilize willing participants. Once this reality is acknowledged, then general marketing practice comes into play.

It's simply naive to not recognize "branding" when one sees it. And Anon is very effectively branded. In fact so much so that George Lucas could learn a thing or two from Anon.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

And I can assure you, every single arrest does not go unnoticed. Anonymous does not forget.

I see this as an utterly superfluous statement. Not forgiving and not forgetting does nothing to assist the handful of people who end up being prosecuted.

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide


I would totally agree with this and you stole my very thoughts on this subject. *grin*.. just because someone uses the word 'anon' in their username, doesn't necessarily make them a member. Also, have to toss in the element of the counter spooks that will try and discredit the .01% .. deflection, destraction & misdirection

Has anon publicly denounced the porn video, probably not since it's not their goal to get in a tit-for-tat and a waste of their time. Just a ploy to bring them out in the open..

Thx Heff..

hbgary.anonleaks.ru...

www.securitynewsdaily.com...

Seems they uncovered a massively illegal plan by so called legal authorities to cyber attack certain websites.

Up to this point, Anonymous was simply demonstrating its online strength and defiant nature. But when people began reading the stolen e-mails, the line between right and wrong — between victor and victim — began to fade.

Barr’s e-mail cache contained the details of a strategic plan to attack WikiLeaks using disinformation, pressuring influential journalists to sway public opinion against WikiLeaks and even launching cyberattacks to cripple the whistleblower site.

Barr’s company, HBGary Federal, was not the only group behind the plan; HBGary Federal was working in conjunction with two more security firms, Berico Technologies and Palantir Technologies, both of which have Washington, D.C.-area offices and extensive government and Department of Defense connections.

All three groups were brought together by New York-based law firm Hunton & Williams, which represents Bank of America (rumored to be a future WikiLeaks target).

Who are the real criminals?

It turns out HBGary, Berico and Palantir had their sights set higher than WikiLeaks.

Barr’s leaked e-mails revealed that Hunton & Williams, the law firm that brought the three security companies together – and also works for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce -- contracted them to target political organizations critical of the chamber, according to the New York Times.

Beyond defamation and public relations smear campaigns, the three security firms were also planning to launch cyberattacks to weaken the groups, which included U.S. Chamber Watch and ThinkProgress.

By hacking into the groups’ servers, the goal was to “discredit, confused, shame, combat, infiltrate, fracture,” the adversarial groups, according to the three firms’ proposal.

More info:

www.balloon-juice.com...

ThinkProgress has learned that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the big business trade association representing ExxonMobil, AIG, and other major international corporations, is working with set of “private security” companies and lobbying firms to undermine their political opponents, including ThinkProgress, with a surreptitious sabotage campaign.

According to e-mails obtained by ThinkProgress, the Chamber hired the lobbying firm Hunton and Williams to spearhead this effort. Hunton And Williams’ attorney Richard Wyatt, who once represented Food Lion in its infamous lawsuit against ABC News, was hired by the Chamber in October of last year. To assist the Chamber, Wyatt and his associates, John Woods and Bob Quackenboss, hired a set of private security firms — HB Gary Federal, Palantir, and Berico Technologies (collectively called Team Themis) — to develop tactics for damaging progressive groups and labor unions, in particular ThinkProgress, the labor coalition called Change to Win, the SEIU, US Chamber Watch, and StopTheChamber.com.

According to one document prepared by Team Themis, the campaign included an entrapment project. The proposal called for first creating a “false document, perhaps highlighting periodical financial information,” to give to a progressive group opposing the Chamber, and then to subsequently expose the document as a fake to undermine the credibility of the Chamber’s opponents. In addition, the group proposed creating a “fake insider persona” to “generate communications” with Change to Win.

The security firms hoped to obtain $200,000 for initial background research, then charge up to $2 million for a larger disinformation campaign against progressives.

www.balloon-juice.com...

Screenswhot at above link.