Rise of the Anti-Christ

I love this thread!

I think one of the reasons to not judge each other is because it's the same as judging God's plan for one another. Who knows why something happens? Moses did stuff thousands of years ago, and yet here I am referencing it. Do you have any idea how many people have been indirectly affected by what Moses did between now and then?

That said, do you ever consider that thousands of years from now, someone may be referencing YOUR life to make a point? If there's a chance that could happen, then how could we possibly begin to understand what God's plan is for another person?

For example: Maybe someone lives a life of sin for awhile, then hits rock bottom. We'll call him Bob. Bob's strong enough to overcome it, and turns over a new leaf. He encounters someone else who is about to hit rock bottom, let's call him Bill. However, that Bill is not strong enough and is contemplating suicide. Bob reaches out, explaining his own experiences, and Bill sees that there is hope. Now Bob couldn't have helped Bill if he didn't have his own genuine experiences to offer.

I hope that made sense.

I think the issue here is Mr 'IAM's' understanding of what antichrist means. After all, that is the basis of his thread. Christ is a greek translation of Messiah or Moshiach, the 'Anointed One' of GOD. Outside of Judaism, Messiah has no precedent or meaning. It is through the Jewish covenant that GOD promised a saviour/redeemer for Israel and ultimately for the gentile nations. It is through Jesus/Yeshua that we Christians perceive (and hopefully receive) that redemption in a way the the Jewish people are currently blinded to. GOD's idea of redemption involved saving the very heart and nature of fallen man, who was utterly corrupt and unable to reach out to GOD. GOD reached out to man instead, and made a way for relationship to be restored between Creator and creation, just as Adam walked with GOD in the garden of Eden. Through the work of GOD and the atoning death of Christ on the cross, we have access to GOD through the blood of Jesus (as shadowed in the blood sacrifice offerings of the Old testament) and pure, real relationship with Him possible, because Christ dwells and lives in those who receive Him. Our walk in this life is a life of us learning to let go of the things in us that bind us, and allowing the fulness of Christ to grow richly in us and transform us. Our ultimate goal is to become like Him!

I have issues with your humanist philosophy though, your unbiblical concept of reincarnation, and your narrowed understanding of what 'antichrist' means. The world is looking and waiting for a redeemer to pull it out of the mire. The world chose to ignore the genuine. They will receive the counterfeit instead. For a time.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood
I think the issue here is Mr 'IAM's' understanding of what antichrist means. After all, that is the basis of his thread. Christ is a greek translation of Messiah or Moshiach, the 'Anointed One' of GOD. Outside of Judaism, Messiah has no precedent or meaning. It is through the Jewish covenant that GOD promised a saviour/redeemer for Israel and ultimately for the gentile nations. It is through Jesus/Yeshua that we Christians perceive (and hopefully receive) that redemption in a way the the Jewish people are currently blinded to. GOD's idea of redemption involved saving the very heart and nature of fallen man, who was utterly corrupt and unable to reach out to GOD. GOD reached out to man instead, and made a way for relationship to be restored between Creator and creation, just as Adam walked with GOD in the garden of Eden. Through the work of GOD and the atoning death of Christ on the cross, we have access to GOD through the blood of Jesus (as shadowed in the blood sacrifice offerings of the Old testament) and pure, real relationship with Him possible, because Christ dwells and lives in those who receive Him. Our walk in this life is a life of us learning to let go of the things in us that bind us, and allowing the fulness of Christ to grow richly in us and transform us. Our ultimate goal is to become like Him!

Indeed we are to be like him my friend. Christ told us where to find him in the beginning of his journey:

Blessed are the meek
Blessed are those who mourn.
Blessed are the merciful.
Blessed are the peacemakers.
Blessed are you when men will say all manner of evil against you, for my name sake.
Blessed are the poor in spirit
Blessed are those who suffer in the name of righteousness.
Blessed are those who are persecuted in his name.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood
I have issues with your humanist philosophy though, your unbiblical concept of reincarnation, and your narrowed understanding of what 'antichrist' means. The world is looking and waiting for a redeemer to pull it out of the mire. The world chose to ignore the genuine. They will receive the counterfeit instead. For a time.

As far as reincarnation goes, perhaps the word is between us. How Christ said John the Baptist was the spirit of Elijah, that is what I consider reincarnation.

I would be interested in hearing your expanded view of the Anti Christ. Perhaps you have some points I would agree with. I do not know because you did not share.

As far as choosing to ignore the genuine, well not on my watch.



With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM

posted on 25-1-2011 @ 02:36 PM this post Originally posted by StarBoy You say Jesus died for our sins. No I didn't, you said this. Christ did not die for our sins, he died to demonstrate how NOT to Sin. Originally posted by StarBoy I say GOD is powerful enough not to sacrifice anyone for sins. Why would you even consider a perfect living creature like GOD to sacrifice a living creature like Jesus? Again, I never said this. Originally posted by StarBoy Oh and if Jesus died for our sins then does that mean if we dont sin then his death was useless? Yes i know we were born with sins, even though you cant name me one sin when i was born. Whoever said you are born with sin knows not what sin is. Sin is that which you do which harms another. You are not born with sin, but you learn to sin soon after birth.

This is taken from your conversation with someone else in a previous thread.
It would seem that you deny the death of Christ as atonement for our sin. THIS is a major stumbling block for me in regards to calling you 'friend' or 'brother'.
Sin is a genetic predisposition,inherrant in all humanity through the disobedience of one man.

As for the issue of Elijah.....this is gonna be a long one.
The bible is not a western book written for western mindsets. There is a culture and mindset written into the Old Testament that presupposes you (the reader) are Jewish or at least understand what they are saying.
When Jesus refers to John as Elijah, He is using what is referred to as a Remez or 'hint'. I would encourage you to look this word up as it will help to explain a great deal of what jesus said, when we tend to interpret Him saying something else. Again, this is the curse of the arrogant western mindset which assumes Jesus went around speaking english and using everyday narratives that we would understand. Not so.
in fact, I would encourage you to look up the concept of PARDES, a rabbinical way of looking at and understanding what was written and the different levels of meaning beneath statements.
Anyway....When Jesus (to the best of my memory)said, 'For those of you who can accept it, 'This is Elijah who was to come', you can find a similar statement in the book of Luke when He says to the listeners (regarding John) 'What did you go out to see? (etc, etc....) I tell you, this is he of whom it was said "Behold, I send My messenger before your face, who will prepare Your way before You." (Luke 7:24-28) .
Jesus is quoting from the book of Malachiin that last statement. But He only hints at it, He doesn't quote all of it. The nature of a remez is a 'hint' or 'suggestion'. The listener takes on board the quote and recalls to mind the rest of that Torah portion (bearing in mind there were no bibles back then, only Torah portions and weekly readings that the listeners would consign to memory as they couldn't afford bibles/scriptures.
As people (even 'fishermen and shepherds') uneducated in life, they would be very familiar with the Law and word of GOD (more so than our generation), and be aware that Jesus was quoting from Malachi. And what Malachi scripture is He quoting from? Malachi 3. John the Baptist was calling Jesus the Messiah, and Jesus was (subtly) declaring John to be the messenger GOD promised to send before He sent His anointed. John carried the mantle of Elijah, one of turning the people back to their GOD in preparation of the arrival of the Messiah. Jesus was admitting that He was the Messiah the people had been waiting for.

Do I think children go to hell? According to Jewish tradition, a child does not become 'a man' (or woman) until the age of 13, when they engage in Bar or Bat Mitzvah. They have reached an age to discern good and evil and are therefore essentially accountable. Good job GOD is judge a weigher of the motives of our hearts and minds and not me. It takes a perfect righteousness to make a perfect judgement.

Anyway, I believe it is written that it is permitted once for all men (or flesh) to die and then face judgement.
No mention of a perpetual cycle of self improvement and correctitude. We all have one shot, we all have a level playing field (even if you don't see it as such), and we all are answerable to GOD for our life on this planet and our deisre to know/pursue/find Him. 'GOD is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him'.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood

posted on 25-1-2011 @ 02:36 PM this post Originally posted by StarBoy You say Jesus died for our sins. No I didn't, you said this. Christ did not die for our sins, he died to demonstrate how NOT to Sin. Originally posted by StarBoy I say GOD is powerful enough not to sacrifice anyone for sins. Why would you even consider a perfect living creature like GOD to sacrifice a living creature like Jesus? Again, I never said this. Originally posted by StarBoy Oh and if Jesus died for our sins then does that mean if we dont sin then his death was useless? Yes i know we were born with sins, even though you cant name me one sin when i was born. Whoever said you are born with sin knows not what sin is. Sin is that which you do which harms another. You are not born with sin, but you learn to sin soon after birth.

This is taken from your conversation with someone else in a previous thread.
It would seem that you deny the death of Christ as atonement for our sin. THIS is a major stumbling block for me in regards to calling you 'friend' or 'brother'.
Sin is a genetic predisposition,inherrant in all humanity through the disobedience of one man.

Christ was not a sacrifice as the friend I was talking to was refering to. He was not bled like a goat to appease God. He sacrificed himself to Man's judgement, that man would learn it is not his place to judge. Sins are imaginary labels made by man. God is all good and within each of us. We are to love each other, not find fault with God's work. The only Sin is to cast judgement. That is the only one you will be judged by.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood
As for the issue of Elijah.....this is gonna be a long one.
The bible is not a western book written for western mindsets. There is a culture and mindset written into the Old Testament that presupposes you (the reader) are Jewish or at least understand what they are saying.
When Jesus refers to John as Elijah, He is using what is referred to as a Remez or 'hint'. I would encourage you to look this word up as it will help to explain a great deal of what jesus said, when we tend to interpret Him saying something else. Again, this is the curse of the arrogant western mindset which assumes Jesus went around speaking english and using everyday narratives that we would understand. Not so.
in fact, I would encourage you to look up the concept of PARDES, a rabbinical way of looking at and understanding what was written and the different levels of meaning beneath statements.
Anyway....When Jesus (to the best of my memory)said, 'For those of you who can accept it, 'This is Elijah who was to come', you can find a similar statement in the book of Luke when He says to the listeners (regarding John) 'What did you go out to see? (etc, etc....) I tell you, this is he of whom it was said "Behold, I send My messenger before your face, who will prepare Your way before You." (Luke 7:24-28) .
Jesus is quoting from the book of Malachiin that last statement. But He only hints at it, He doesn't quote all of it. The nature of a remez is a 'hint' or 'suggestion'. The listener takes on board the quote and recalls to mind the rest of that Torah portion (bearing in mind there were no bibles back then, only Torah portions and weekly readings that the listeners would consign to memory as they couldn't afford bibles/scriptures.
As people (even 'fishermen and shepherds') uneducated in life, they would be very familiar with the Law and word of GOD (more so than our generation), and be aware that Jesus was quoting from Malachi. And what Malachi scripture is He quoting from? Malachi 3. John the Baptist was calling Jesus the Messiah, and Jesus was (subtly) declaring John to be the messenger GOD promised to send before He sent His anointed. John carried the mantle of Elijah, one of turning the people back to their GOD in preparation of the arrival of the Messiah. Jesus was admitting that He was the Messiah the people had been waiting for.

That's what I said.

Originally posted by Lucius DriftwoodDo I think children go to hell? According to Jewish tradition, a child does not become 'a man' (or woman) until the age of 13, when they engage in Bar or Bat Mitzvah. They have reached an age to discern good and evil and are therefore essentially accountable. Good job GOD is judge a weigher of the motives of our hearts and minds and not me. It takes a perfect righteousness to make a perfect judgement.

Exactly! That's why we are not to judge. Jew's only think they do because they keep choosing the fruit of that tree. They should put down that fruit and eat of the tree of life.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood
Anyway, I believe it is written that it is permitted once for all men (or flesh) to die and then face judgement.
No mention of a perpetual cycle of self improvement and correctitude. We all have one shot, we all have a level playing field (even if you don't see it as such), and we all are answerable to GOD for our life on this planet and our deisre to know/pursue/find Him. 'GOD is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him'.

I am undecided either way. That is a mystery I will only truly know when I get there. Anything else is my self created illusion. I prefer surprises, what can I say...



With Love,

Your Brother

Much as you choose to ignore the Olde testament, GOD chose David and referred to him as 'A man after GOD's own heart'. Even Jesus described Himself as being of David.
And what did David have to say on the issue of sin?
I think he wrote it perfectly in Psalm 51:5-6
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

Sin is the fundamental, universal issue that keeps us seperate from GOD, and it is not to do with judgement in the way you seem to perceive it. And if you can discard the Old Testament so easily, where is the basis of you upholding the 'New Testament' so vehemently? It cannot stand without the foundation of the Old. And Jesus (referring to the law) said He came to fulfill it, not do away with it.
The law required innocent blood shed for the guilty.

I am concerned about where you are at in your grasp of 'following Jesus'.

Christ was not a sacrifice as the friend I was talking to was refering to. He was not bled like a goat to appease God. He sacrificed himself to Man's judgement, that man would learn it is not his place to judge. Sins are imaginary labels made by man. God is all good and within each of us. We are to love each other, not find fault with God's work. The only Sin is to cast judgement. That is the only one you will be judged by.

That is a very humanistic statement, sir. He chose to die to appease GOD's judgement. The wrath of GOD hung over us, and He (like the Pasover lamb) shed blood that GOD would pass by and not see our sins, only the blood of the Passover lamb. Do you think it was coincidence that Jesus did this at the time of Passover? He came to fulfill the law.
Sins are not imaginary labels made by man. The first person to describe sin is GOD, found in Genesis 4:7 regarding Cain. Adam was made in the image of GOD, but all of us are in the image of Adam. That is sins' curse on humanity! Christ came in the image of Adam that through Him we might be made in the image of GOD (ie Christ).
If you disregard the Old Testament, the 'New Testament' does not have a leg to stand on.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood
Much as you choose to ignore the Olde testament, GOD chose David and referred to him as 'A man after GOD's own heart'. Even Jesus described Himself as being of David.
And what did David have to say on the issue of sin?
I think he wrote it perfectly in Psalm 51:5-6
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

I read that verse a bit differently. David WAS a man after God's own heart. So was Christ. What did they have in common? One was blood thirsty and savage, the other was humble and loving. So the names did not matter they only represented personalities. Yet these two conflicting personalities had one thing in common, their heart. What did their heart tell them? I AM KING.

And like them you have found God within you when You realise that You too ARE King or Queen. You are in charge of yourself. To be Kings and Queens, you must learn to love one another as such.

Both men were born in iniquity, but look at the differences in the mothers. One conceived in sin, and the other by a virgin. Who decides which is which? Not God, man makes that Judgement. If you judge people harshly you will get a ruthless king like David. If you judge with mercy and kindness, with love, then you will get a King that sees you as a King or Queen.

That's how I see it, and I AM King.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood
Sin is the fundamental, universal issue that keeps us seperate from GOD, and it is not to do with judgement in the way you seem to perceive it.

It has all to do with judgement as I perceive. I am allowed to perceive any way I want. You can merely disagree. That is how Kings associate. Neither higher, nor lower than the other. Lovingly exchanging ideas. However, it is our Judgements that keep us from God.

You forget the omnipresent nature of divinity. It is in all things. You forget the omnibenevolent nature of deity, it is all Good. There is not a flaw in creation. The flaws are only man's judgement of one another. If we stopped trying to dominate one another and simply loved one another and helped all achieve the same level of grace, then you will see the world transformed.

And if you can discard the Old Testament so easily, where is the basis of you upholding the 'New Testament' so vehemently? It cannot stand without the foundation of the Old. And Jesus (referring to the law) said He came to fulfill it, not do away with it.
The law required innocent blood shed for the guilty.

I am concerned about where you are at in your grasp of 'following Jesus'.

The Old Testament has Great value. The problem is that the value is buried beneath old ruins. People have forgotten the treasure and have begun marveling at the ruins. Thus, they must be torn down and the treasure revealed.

Christ did that. He tore down the old ruins and taught the basic truth, the treasure within. Since that time, we have built new temples, temples that once again conceal the basic truth of the Word. Again, we marvel at the ruins, and have forgotten the treasure.

Guess what time it is.

With Love,

Your Brother

Prince Charles is the anti christ