Roswell. Do you believe?

Originally posted by machinegunjordan
no you see back then everyone believed the goverment, and the wreckage was switvhed at fort worth the real stuff was hidden but a guy in the military who saw it had some reproductions made. nobody said nothing because they didnt want to go to court. and loose there job and retirement. but before one died he said he saw creatures. and another just started talking about it not being a weather baloon but from another planet. and marcel JR talked about what his father brought home and told him it was. it was extraterrestrial

Tell that to Jesse Marcel, who in 1978 said, "The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we found. It was not a staged photo."

thats because at the time he was still alive and didnt want to get sued and taken to court by the military. you obviously havnt heard what his son said about it and what he said his father told him and what the other guys said. and marcel told the real story before he died you should have seen the show on Sci Fi last night about it.

Originally posted by machinegunjordan
thats because at the time he was still alive and didnt want to get sued and taken to court by the military. you obviously havnt heard what his son said about it and what he said his father told him and what the other guys said. and marcel told the real story before he died you should have seen the show on Sci Fi last night about it.

What would he have been taken to court for?

Originally posted by machinegunjordan
...you should have seen the show on Sci Fi last night about it.

Hehe - I want to say something so bad, but I won't.....lol - j/k MGJ

It's obvious its a cover-up - if the military says "it's not a cover-up" then usually that means, yes we acknowledge this was an unusual event, but A - we don't even know ourselves or B - it's a matter of national security - which in any case translates into, "yes, it's a cover-up"

Otherwise there would have been no need for the official investigation of UFOs, in which they flatly deny their esxistence no doubt to appease the masses fears of invasion - which is understandble to a certain degree, but at this day and age, with as much evidence as we have apart from Roswell, is just a childish game they enjoy to play

[edit on 7/14/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

They didn't want that information to get out, didn't want the Russians to know. So they let the story of a UFO grow, to help cover it up. But now it's no longer neccesary to cover it up. but they told so many lies that they can't un-tell them.

If that were true, then it would have been easy for the Air Force to use this explaination, instead of Mogul, when it "closed the case" on Roswell... I have also found NO evidence of this theory (you can look at the labs nearby that would have been testing rockets, and there are NO sightings, records of such.

As for the picture of the debris....Marcell has said time and time again (after '78 and on his deathbed) that it was a BS photo for the coverup, that he was ordered to pose with the debris of a Mogul balloon by General Ramey (those interested are advised to research the Ramey memo that Ramey is holding in the picture....then we'll see if you still think there was no disc... )

[edit on 14-7-2004 by Gazrok]

I'm gonna have to make the effort to try & obtain those particular back issues of that mag sooner or later. The interview with that old camera operator was extremely convincing, & I do believe that an autopsy was carried out after that Roswell crash. This is why a "disinformation" video was made.

There's too much that can't be explained away. Autopsies, coffins, a myriad of eye-witness accounts & not from just dirt-poor farmers either. No other UFO incident has had all this. I firmly believe that there were bodies recovered & that autopsies were carried out.

Originally posted by Durden


The water balloon story? I hadn't heard that one before

. Eh.. sorry. I couldn't help myself.

Weather balloons!!!! lol not water balloons- how can i be so stupid!! sorry my bad- that is quite funny though.!

Hello Groupies:

Any ideas on what FBI Director J Edgar Hoover may have known about "Discs recovered" after 1947?

The following information is taken from "The UFO-FBI Connection" by Bruce Maccabee.

On July 9th 1947, a WEEK following the July 2 1947 "Roswell Incident(s)" , Brigadier General George Schulgen, Chief of the Air Intelligence Requirements Division of the Army Air Corps Intelligence, asked the FBI to help investigate the "apparently intelligently operated" UFO saucer reports.

He primarily wanted to know if these UFO reports were in some way the result of attempts by "communist sympathizers or Soviet agents in the US" to cause hysteria among the massed of "a secret Soviet Weapon..."

Were the witnesses providing honest reports Did they have a political agenda? The General wanted the FBI to try to get to the truth.

Schulgen told the FBI that his intelligence organization was using all of its scientists to determine whether or not such a phenomenon could, in fact, occur.

He said that he and several scientists and a psychologist, had interrogated an Air Force pilot who claimed he saw one.

Under the intense questioning the pilot was adamant in his claim that he saw flying metallic aluminium-appearing disc.

Schulgen assured the FBI that there was "no defense project that could account for these flying disc reports" and offered to work closely with the FBI.

He said he would make available to the FBI reports of his scientists and findings of the various Air Corps installations and if the Bureau would cooperate with him in this matter, he would offer all facilities of his office as to results obtained in the effort to identify and run down this matter.
-----
Quote
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Memorandum for Mr. Ladd
9 July 1947

Mr. [ ] also discussed this matter with Colonel L. H. Forney of MID. Colonel Forney indicated that it was his attitude that inasmuch as it has been established that these flying Disks are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments, the matter is of interest to the FBI.

He stated that he was of the opinion that the Bureau, if at all possible, should accede to General Schulgen's request.

SWR:AJB ADDENDUM

I would recommend that we advise the Army that the Bureau does not believe it should go into these investigations, it being noted that a great bulk of those alleged discs reported found have been pranks. It is not believed that the Bureau would accomplish anything by going into these investigations. DML

NB : hand written ADDENDUM #2 (Clyde Tolson)

- I think we [the FBI] should do this. (Dated 7/15)

NB: hand writen ADDENDUM #3 (J. Edgar Hoover)

I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the [faked Louisiana SW] case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination. "

---end quote

J Edgar Hoover evidently believed that such "Discs" existed at least: he wanted physical "access to any Discs recovered" evidently because he believed it was the job of the FBI to try and determine the origin of the parts which made up the "Discs recovered."

It is certainly curious that the CIA was suddenly "formed" by then US President Truman within a few weeks of the Roswell Crash....

And speaking of "Discs Recovered..." does anyone on this thread know what REALLY happened to Secretary of Defence James Forrestal at 2am on May 22 1949 when they found him smashed on the pavement in a pool of his own blood (Forrestal was said to have kept a "red diary" about Roswell and "discs recovered" which suddenly "went missing" when they picked up his body outside the Bethesda Naval Hospital (having "fallen" some 16 storeys to his death...)

I seem to remember hearing one of his "doctors" claim that "James kept saying..over and over..."I'll never leave this hospital alive..they're going to get me, they're after me....I'll never get out of this place alive..."

One shudders to think what was in that Little Red Diary of his? (and why are these diaries always Red?)

Originally posted by Amadeus
Any ideas on what FBI Director J Edgar Hoover may have known about "Discs recovered" after 1947?

Here are some quotes from Hoover I pulled from this website although I'm not 100% sure of their accuracy.....

J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the FBI

"I would do it [aid the Army Air Force in its investigations] but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to the discs recovered. For instance in the LA* case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination." --From a handwritten notation at the bottom of a now declassified memo. (asterisk added, see below)

"[UFOs are] considered top secret by intelligence officers of both the Army and the Air Forces." --From a declassified 1949 FBI document from the San Antonio FBI office, to J. Edgar Hoover.

"An investigator for the Air Force stated that three so-called flying saucers had been recovered in New Mexico. They were described as being circular in shape with raised centers. Approximately 50 feet in diameter. Each one was occupied by three bodies of human shape but only 3 feet tall. Dressed in metallic cloth of a very fine texture. Each body was bandaged in a manner similar to the blackout suits used by speed flyers and test pilots." --From a March 22, 1950 memo to J. Edgar Hoover from the Washington FBI Office, released in 1976 under the freedom of information act.

* -- "LA" in this case may refer to Los Alamos, where the first atomic bombs were developed. There is some coroboration for this in the newly released, but unofficial MJ-12 documents.

I realy dont understand why everone goes round and round with this UFO crash after all The ARMY relised a press relise a copple days after the CRASH sayin they had a crashed UFO . Look it up on micro film it was real from that little news paper .a week later they relised another press relise say OPPPSSS our mistake its was a weather bollon. So you tell me how a person can mistake a Crashed DISK for a weather bollon?
I mean realy even a Dirt farmer would see a big difference between the two. Now as to what happened and why. This is my theroy. The goverment saw the Disk on radar and took a shot at it .Now the alians have more then likly been studing use for a Longg time but because our tecknolgy had just started getting better and this happened FAST in just a few years they were not prepeared and got hit and the crash was the result.
Im sure that this was a once in a life time thing as now they know and can avoid our wepons with ease. And farther more I also belive we reversed tecknolgy there ship and most of our moderen electronics came from that. Why i belive this is because I have worked on tvs radios and pcs.
and if you get tvs or radios from 1960 they are almost compleatly TOOBS.
but yet less then three years later tvs and radios dident have a singial TOOB left in them . That my friend is a HUGE jump. this is not how tek advances normaly . As all you pc fans should be very aware . you finger out how to replace a toob with a transister then you build a new type of tv with less toobs.And so on . even giving lots of luck and money the prosses of going from toobs to intergrated circets should have taken twent years Alest. To give you a modern idea of the Jump made in tek in the 60des.
it would be as if your pc you own today pentom4 3 gig 200 gig hard drive .
a gig of ddr ram.
next year you could go and buy a Pentium 20 with a trigihurts prossesing
and a 100,000 gig hard drive with ram that would make ddr look slow as a snail. That is how radical the Jump from TOOBS to intergrated circets is.
All a toob is is a fance light bulb for all practial views. But intergrated circets compleatly change this.

So you tell me how a person can mistake a Crashed DISK for a weather bollon?
I mean realy even a Dirt farmer would see a big difference between the two.

This is EXACTLY why it's insane to believe that the Senior Intelligence Officer, at a base housing the ONLY Atomic Bomber Wing in existence at the time (talk about Top Secret), can't tell the difference between balsa wood, tin foil, and a crashed flying saucer. To accept the military's version of events is near lunacy....

In the early days of rocket testing, much of it was done at White Sands missile range, which is less then 300 miles from Roswell. It is not at all unfathomable that early guideance systems would fail, they were still figuring it out. If you had never actually seen the wreckage of a rocket, wether an experience air corp officer or not, you would be hard pressed to identify it.

Yes there was a cover up, but not of a extraterrestrial crash, but of a secret military project test failure.

Roswell has really enjoyed the exposure, [read: tourist cash] it has received since becoming the international hub of ufologists. As far as the witnesses, I'm sure they are credible people, but credible people also need to eat.

'Course that's just my opinon, I could be wrong.

Checked into that, as have many researchers... There are NO programs at the time that would still be classified, and none of those programs had reports of any missiles lost. (indeed, these are well-tracked, and quickly recovered).

If you had really looked into it, you would have found that Mac had found the disc a day or so before Marcel went out to the site. Do you REALLY think a TOP SECRET rocket would have simply been left out in the middle of nowhere for days to be discovered by a rancher? Hell no, they would have been on the way to the crash site the moment it veered off course....

You can try and rationalize it any way you want, but the fact is, there is way too much to indicate that Roswell was simply the first (and thus bumbled) retrieval of UFO wreckage from a civilian area....and other ideas simply don't fit logically.

And actually, I'm quite sure I could tell the difference between rocket crash debris, and a mostly intact saucer with dead aliens....

[edit on 15-7-2004 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok
Checked into that, as have many researchers... There are NO programs at the time that would still be classified, and none of those programs had reports of any missiles lost. (indeed, these are well-tracked, and quickly recovered).

If you had really looked into it, you would have found that Mac had found the disc a day or so before Marcel went out to the site. Do you REALLY think a TOP SECRET rocket would have simply been left out in the middle of nowhere for days to be discovered by a rancher?

Hell no, they would have been on the way to the crash site the moment it veered off course....

[edit on 15-7-2004 by Gazrok]

40's technology had nothing that could "well track" anything beyond visual confirmation. Radar, while being used at the time, was still a very flawed technology. How much time have you spent out in the desert? Do you have any idea how desolate, large and barren the desert in NM is? Things do go missing out there and can take a long time to recover. Yes, even military projects.
Now I am open to Roswell being for real and hope it is, but all avenues and facts must be presented.

i dont know whether to believe it or not. i would like for it to be true because i dont want the earth and the human race to be the only life in the universe. if we are alone we are doomed for!!!!!

40's technology had nothing that could "well track" anything beyond visual confirmation. Radar, while being used at the time, was still a very flawed technology. How much time have you spent out in the desert? Do you have any idea how desolate, large and barren the desert in NM is? Things do go missing out there and can take a long time to recover. Yes, even military projects.
Now I am open to Roswell being for real and hope it is, but all avenues and facts must be presented.

I lived for almost 3 years in the desert....maybe you've heard of the place, it's called "Saudi Arabia"? As for tracking, look, if we're to accept the MOGUL theory, then you also have to accept that it was a top secret project. They know wind patterns, etc. and can easily track where such an object would go, and also have tracks of such tests on record (none of which could be mistaken for the area of the Brazell ranch)...even in the 40's. Not to mention, MOGUL was supposed to be involved with radar, so yes, it seems quite reasonable to assume that they could radar track it. Even if ALL of this failed, they would STILL be in the air in a hurry to look for the downed project if it was so heavily classified, don't you think? Sorry, MOGUL simply doesn't hold water, not at all....

Gazrok has said many things that make my signs point to yes. I mean, why would they let some guy be in charge of like, satelites and weapons if he can't even tell the difference between a UFO and a Weather Balloon. -.-

Well, everyone agreed that something crashed at Roswell. I don't see how anyone could buy the project Mogul/test dummies explainiation either. I remember watching the news conference where they put out that explaination and even the reporters laughed at it. "Time compression"...right.

So as I see it, the only other "mundane" explaination is that some sort of super secret test plane crashed. My problem with this theory is that they (the military) would have no reason to cover it up for so long. How special could it have been? We've had all kinds of super secret aircraft in the last 50 years and they've been declassified eventually. This was 1947! The government has admitted to much worse....the people involved would most likely be long dead anyway.

As it is, I've seen enough evidence, both circumstantial and solid, to convince me that something extraterrestrial crashed. The Ramey memo is particularly damning. ..


[edit on 7/19/2004 by Flinx]

Interesting side note, Marcell's son (Jesse Marcell was the intel officer I was speaking of), is/was a spotter and quite the authority on various kinds of aircraft (as I suspect his father was). The U-2 project was back in the 50's (what Area 51 was for, while other parts of the complex were for even more secret projects), so yes, I'd have to agree that any aerial programme would have been more than declassified by now, for that theory to fly as well.

As one mentioned, even the reporters scoffed at the Mogul explaination...and yes, the memo in Ramey's hand, while kneeling down with the fake tin foil and balsa wood "debris" is just one of the nails in the coffin.

The fact that, when Congress tried to re open and investigate the Roswell case back in 1994, they found that every file, document, ect relating to Roswell in the national archives had been illegally destroyed. Why destroy a secret test plane from the 1940's?

No one knows who destroyed the documents. But they have been destroyed. If it was just a cover up to throw the Russians off, why destroy the whole incident completely?

Sorry, all evidence points to a UFO.