I want to believe, but you people make it really difficult.

reply to post by Quasar_La-Zar


Now you are encountering the problem many including me have ran into, which is "Why are there so many stupid people claiming to see ufos and not 1 intelligent one that does good records and puts forth an actual case of a good UFO

Because as soon as an intelligent person says they saw a UFO their IQ drops 20 points in the eyes of the person they are telling. Because even the smart people can be crazy!

reply to post by Quasar_La-Zar


I am so glad that most people on this planet think that magic is not real. That kind of power does not belong in the hands of the common man. Bet my IQ just went down a point or two with readers. Ah well, better they dont believe anyway.

reply to post by TKDRL


Straw manFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
This article is about the logical fallacy. For other uses, see Straw man (disambiguation).
"Man of straw" redirects here. For the novel by Heinrich Mann, see Der Untertan.
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

Good thing I'm sitting down. That is rather convoluted and even now I am not sure if it's saying what I think its saying. But thanks anyway! Maybe if they'd included an example.....

reply to post by SaturnFX


There are a lot of excitable people that are members of ATS who are looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
They find a blurry anomaly in a photo or a strange occurrence in a video and they can't wait to proclaim that it is an alien from another planet.
In their eagerness to be first, their posts are usually full of spelling mistakes and the title most often contains words like "Absolute proof", "Disclosure" or "Breaking news".)
Other gullible members usually follow up with "Oh wow! You have something there..", "S&F for you my friend..." without even the slightest bit of investigation or analysis.
This goes on for page after page until someone takes the time to look at it and offer a rational explanation, such as a bird swooping.
Despite evidence to the contrary members continue to post in favour of the OP's opinion with more S&F's.
50+ pages later it turns to name calling and insults until a mod finally steps in and chastises the de-bunker because he has allowed his/her frustration to get the better of him/her.
All the while the OP and the yes men (or women) continue on their merry way.

The best way to kill off silly threads like those is to post a short response and move on. (Even though a few words would be sufficient, such as "This is ....." the T&C's don't allow one liners or bad laguage unfortunately)

OP, your thread doesn't logically make a lot of sense. What does anyone's belief system have to do with alien visitation, whatsoever? How does someone posting videos of balloons prove or disprove the theories? They are either visiting us, or they are not. It doesn't matter what people here believe at all.

The original premise of UFO was built on some pretty solid foundations. And in our past, when there was less air clutter, the UFO cases were a lot more solid. But some solid cases continue to this day. And they are the determining factor. Not that some loon in Vegas thinks he can summon alien ships. Use fact and solid reasoning to prove or disprove the existence. It's silly to let some nut-jobs theories make your mind up for you.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
I really do want to believe. I want to find evidence that simply is out of this world (literally) and conclude that extraterrestrials are indeed visiting (or visited) earth....

...And how do we change it..how do we get it back on the right track?

I think your last question tells me something about you that maybe you aren't even considering. What is "the right track"? This tells me you have a pre-conceived notion of what the final determination of the UFO phenom is. I assume you have bought into the theory that UFOs are from another world. This has not been established. If you are looking for proof of that then you won't find it anywhere.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for TRUTH then broaden your horizen and explore ALL posssibilities. My suggestion as a place to start your quest for truth is reading these two recently released books:

Roswell and the Reich: The Nazi Connection by Dr Joseph P Farrell

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295735758&sr=1-6

The Rise of the Fourth Reich: The Secret Societies That Threaten to Take Over America by Jim Marrs

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295736008&sr=1-3

Good luck!

Originally posted by SaturnFX
I really do want to believe. I want to find evidence that simply is out of this world (literally) and conclude that extraterrestrials are indeed visiting (or visited) earth.

I came to ATS because I was very interested in the subject, and after watching a long video by John Lear being interviewed by project camelot, I found my way here (they badmouthed ATS...and figured if they were debunking this guys claims while remaining open about ETs in general, thats where I need to go).

So, you come here, you get excited whenever you see a ET thread..maybe this will finally be it, the smoking gun..the thing that will make me go from skeptical but hopeful to full fledged believer, tin foil hat wearing crystal swinging plejarian calling UFOnaut.

Yet daily and weekly, we get just misunderstood lights in the sky discussions, contrails called ETs, dodgy websites channeling lightships that never show up, booksellers trying to suggest they know something groundbreaking and smashing which never pans out to anything more than conjecture and hypotheticals taken as fact.

I have discovered far more from discoverys "ancient aliens" series than most stuff on ATS. Why is there such trouble bringing quality evidence forward..why is there such a religion of ETs verses a actual investigation on this board?

I want to believe...why are many of you "believers" making it soo difficult by tossing up nonsense...so much so that your chasing strong skeptics away and making the subject become less of an investigation and more of a really dumb religion.

And how do we change it..how do we get it back on the right track?

People need to start employing critical thinking, the worst kind of people for any kind of investigation are those who believe everything at face value. If we employed their methodology say in a police investigation, we would increase the odds of convicting the wrong person.

How many people have come out in the past, claiming to be ex black op operatives, only to be disproven or discredited at a later date. But at the moment of time, they were ground breaking.

The only cases which peak my interest are cases which involve pilots, whom it does not benefit to report things they may of seen in the sky. There is also a particular ufo case, which still has question marks in my mind - Rendlesham Forest. But even in these cases you have to examine all possible variables.

When I as younger I used to have the mentality of why would that person lie, projecting my values onto them. Thinking I would never do that, why would they. But some of them are genuinely lying. Then they are those who take the persons lies genuinely as absolute truths and the myth grows into a fact.

In terms of ancient aliens, you have to take what they say with a pinch of salt. They approach everything in a biased manner, and never ask any probing critical questions, and if they do, they gloss over them fairly quickly.

I am a skeptic at heart, but the most interesting UFO case I have come across is a US military helicopter with four army personal, encountering a UFO mid air. The same helicopter and UFO was observed by civilians road side. I believe it was in the early 90's or late 80's and I can't for the life of me remember the name of the pilot. But it was very interesting case, because how could 4 army personnel and civilians corroborate their stories when they have no connections what so ever.

Originally posted by romanmel
This tells me you have a pre-conceived notion of what the final determination of the UFO phenom is.

I think I made a clear difference between the UFO mystery and the ET question. Let me restate.

UFOs aren't really that interesting to me as it could be anything, ours or otherwise.

I am interested in uncovering the truth about extraterrestrials interacting with this planet, be it now or previously. Why? meh..who knows. I just want to know.

I do assume ETs are ETs. I also am aware of well created robots and genetic abnormalities that could pose as a ET discussions..hell, that would also be interesting to expose.

But ultimately, I am seeking out the "truth" of aliens.

I am at the starting point that they are not now nor have ever been to the earth. This is default starting and ultimately it makes no sense to me for a variety of reasons...so, the climb from the starting point to wherever the facts lead me.

As I said, I quite enjoyed the ancient aliens series...none of it was proof, but there was a ton of evidence that paints a picture clear enough to make people ask questions.

I also enjoyed the 2001 disclosure project due to alot of credible witness testimony. Enough to get a clearer picture and ask even more questions.

Thats pretty much where I am now.

The UFO thing is a different can of worms. Zorgon posted a couple times now his like for the pre-47 stories of flying disks reported. You suggest reading up on the nazi flying disk trials...2 + 2 = potential answer (the timeframe works between the mass sightings and the nazi movement for alternative flight.

Again, its a very interesting subject, but I am seeking out the aliens..not the spaceships per say..of course once the alien is found, I will be interested in uncovering how they go from place to place..be it UFOs, Stargates, magic genies, etc.

reply to post by CrazyMonkey


Nice thread on what you're writing about, known as the Coyne Incident after the commander of the helicopter, Mansfield OH 1973.

ATS thread by Internos

reply to post by SaturnFX


I understand. Unfortunately, you will find there is most always a connection between UFOs and potential "aliens". I believe that there are aliens but not that they are visitors from another world. You mis-judge the two books I mentioned as just Nazi techno books. They both explore that as well as what aliens could be. All I was attempting to do in my response was to encourage you to not have a pre-conceived notion as to what aliens are. Regardless, good luck on your quest.

saturnFX, i feel where you are coming from. This is my first post here (hi everyone) and i feel like there is a wall of information so high and so wide, i wouldn't - read couldn't - try and home in on an opinion by wanting to read everything here, for the reasons you stated. If i finished all the information here and i was still searching for the truth - the be all end all out and out absolute truth, then there is the rest of the whole internet out there to trawl through. When will your search for the truth be enough for you?

Here's my take - that search of all the information possible i just mentioned - that's all it is - information. There is no truth out there, just information, seas and seas and seas of it. The truth lies in your own judgement. Even if you saw a ufo, and alien being got out and said "hello saturnfx, i'm an et from the planet pheaton", right in front of your eyes, you would still have to believe your eyes. The minute you believe in ufos, you have your proof, it's just that it can't be seen by anyone, or touched, or felt with any of the five senses. And the minute you try and export your truth to other people, it becomes information again. I like Bill Hicks, and he said this - YOU'RE RIGHT! Believe your own judgement!

reply to post by thestig


I think the search for truth in this subject is a bit like a quest for perfection. You will never achieve it, but every day you may step a bit closer to the direction your wanting to go.

I may never know the full truth in my life about the subject, but I may end up with a healthy dose of facts over chatter that may give a perspective of something real.

It may never be enough, and perhaps thats one of the endering qualities of a intelligent species...to always want more, never be satisfied, and keep digging, even when it seem you have dug all you can.

reply to post by Reptius

reply to post by Essence

Originally posted by Essence
Or you might get silenced pretty quickly and just hope you had a chance of living a normal life after the proof had been taken from you? Not saying I think that's the case at all, but there's an equal chance that there's another side to what you're saying.

Indeed you might be silenced.

Bill Cooper, among other things, predicted 9/11 and spoke up about the new world order. Here is a video about his legacy. He was allegedly shot dead for his efforts.

Please watch this video and you might begin to get the picture. It's called The Hour of Our Time: The legacy of William Cooper.

Google Video Link

Anybody that has witnessed this phenomenon or ufo, could write each own description in a tread. This makes it possible to see if there is some type of connection that can give us answers that at least is obtainable trough word/testimonials.

I can start with the only sighting that i have enough description to make it worth something.
It was last year in the middle of spring and the sky was crispy clear and the moon was either full moon or pretty close. Wehere i live there is another large 12 stories building in the south wes direction from my appartement lies in a identical building.
The mon was behind the building so there wa onlu the light gradient that went anywhere towards a dark bkuish black.
I had this feeling because many times before i had seen some strange lighst appearing only to drift northward. (Getting the chills writing this since there is no sound but the keys clicking)
Anyways i was sitting outside taking the last cigarette before bedtime. 2.50-3.03 was the period of the situation that came.
While writing on the computer i often glimsed trough the west of the horisont where a strong light or a star was of interest. Suddently this huge fireball seemed to come out of nowhere. But it might not have been because it happened so fast and i only recorded it trough the side of mye eyesight.
It was like something came in to our world from somewhere else.
Then i caught the eye of the ufo. It hovered sliding very carefully toward easth coming from west. It looked like it had gone from som enormous speed in the start to just sliding. Now it was standind still for while.

The material was dark cover with a rough overlay, it looked matte. Lights where just so clear and piercing.There was three white lights and tree yellow.
You know that disstortion that lighter gas makes to the background? This strange effect was distorting the lights and made anything behind it blurry and vibrating like some type of energy.
THen it started to move, or i actually don't think it ever stopped, but just slided so slow and then it just faded away while contiuing to hover against east.
I only looked at it and did consider to get the camera, but with the time and the bad quality they give i rather wanted to see if it really was real.
It was amazing and not very shocking at all, until afterward.
After the incident i got so scared that i didnt no where to put myself. AT this time the incident felt like a dream where the memory already had started to fade and i kinnda new i had to write it down and just try to keep it.

It was real and it was huge. Ive done a lot of calculations trying to tell what size it might have been. In this area there is much traffic from commercial flights on their way to another destination. And when their light points in the direction where the lights gets strongest was still far from being close to this ufo.
I don't know if there was anybody inside the thing but i believe that i saw it because of the contrast from the moon behind the building because it was very dark that parts of it seemed to be invisible. but when it slided trough the light parts of the sky the contures became very clear and it was parlty invisible, but had this vibrating "energy" around it.

I still don't know what to decide on where i stand in this. because as a amateur astronomer i know the sky very well and the lighst and funny patterns they also make sometimes are just off the hook crazy. No meaning at all. THey never seem to have any interest rather than being in a fixed route often blinking.

One of them blinked every 7 second but the farther away the fewer times it flashed. And before it dissapeared from mye eyesight it had a period of 17 seconds. No logic.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I personally believe in UFO's from my own encounter years ago. I do not share the details because I do not have the time nor inclination to debate the doubters. ( I know what I saw with my own eyes AND Radar) Finding proof that is 100% irrefutable is very unlikely, someone will always give some plausible explanation why it MAY not be a U.F.O.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
reply to post by thestig

 

I think the search for truth in this subject is a bit like a quest for perfection. You will never achieve it, but every day you may step a bit closer to the direction your wanting to go.

I may never know the full truth in my life about the subject, but I may end up with a healthy dose of facts over chatter that may give a perspective of something real.

It may never be enough, and perhaps thats one of the endering qualities of a intelligent species...to always want more, never be satisfied, and keep digging, even when it seem you have dug all you can.

I understand brother. But you said you wanted to believe.... then believe. What is stopping you? Is it really the other people on here? Or is it your taught/infered/manipulated belief that you will think yourself gullible or easily led, and therefore weak? If people do think you're easily led because you believe in aliens, after you have made a rational and logical inspection of all the information you feel is sufficient, you can bet your lucky stars the people who call you gullible, will be clinging to their 'real' world of BBC, CNN, FOX, the eCONomy and their 9 to 5!

With regards to perfection i am reminded of the ending of the first zietgiest documentary - we have all been taught (thru school mainly, but also by our peers and parents) to believe that we are not perfect the way we are, but if we get better at stuff, if we take in enough information, we will be more perfect than we were yesterday. Were we not the embodiment of perfection on the day of our birth? The danger with always wanting more, is that enough is never enough.

I agree it's good to talk about what we think and it's also necessary to talk about how we think. Our 'formal educations', (big inverted commas for 'formal educations') only taught the what, not the how. I hope these words help. I'm going to bed now.

reply to post by lost artistic

You know that disstortion that lighter gas makes to the background? This strange effect was distorting the lights and made anything behind it blurry and vibrating like some type of energy.
-------and it was parlty invisible, but had this vibrating "energy" around it




I saw ufos and they had that vibrating ( I call it like, a fluttering ) appearance about their paremiters.

By-the-way ATS, I am unable to get the selected quote feature to work for me.

reply to post by SaturnFX



I was a Big Skeptic about UFO until i s saw old clippings Videos er... Film Old Photos before the time of Roswell

and a little after Just look at the Vintage Past that TPTB Didnt think to cover up.. or were unable too..

The few best evidence to Me is the Montana 1950 and Utah 1952 Ufo Incident

Tremonton, Utah
Great Falls Montana

The Very close to the Longitude just slightly off and with 2 years difference from both the states

The Video of the 2

The Video was shown for the Robertson Panel

Secret Montana & Utah UFO Films


The Videos Below were for Government Eyes Only & not for the Public

Nick Mariana UFO Footage - 1950 - Great Falls, Montana
www.youtube.com...

Delbert Newhouse UFO Footage - 1952 - Tremonton, Utah
www.youtube.com...

Dont forget UFO's did not come in Masses ,,, or should i say.. We did not Noticed them UNTIL We started Atomic & Nuclear Bomb Testing ! before that .. we only heard Stories of WW2 Pilots talking about Foo Fighters Glowing ORBS much like what is shown in the 1950 Montana UFO Incident Film ...

I do Believe In UFOS its just The Question of Who or what is Operating them ! either Earthen Humans or The Advanced Sentient Beings of the Future ? or Beings that are from beyond Our Outer Limits of Space... or Dimensional Beings or All of the Above.. but hard evidence is there ... just look at the carvings & cylinders Writings of the claim mythical Story's of the Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian & Biblical Past and Paintings from the 13th to 18th century of what they saw in the Sky's My advice is always look at the PAST...

Vintage News Report On Washington DC 1952 UFO Flap
www.disclose.tv...

The Ufo Story:Long John Nebel 1950s Vintage Audio
www.disclose.tv...

UFO spotted by RAF pilot - November 1953
www.youtube.com...

WWII Pilots and Foo Fighters (UFOs)
www.youtube.com...

UFO from the 1950s Black & White. Two airline pilots report UFO to newsreel cameras.
www.youtube.com...

But... then again about the Flying Saucer Shape Crescent UFO that Kennith Arnold saw .. ?
it may well of been this

Forgotten aircraft - Armstrong-Whitworth AW-52 flying wing (1947 November PUBLIC Run)
www.youtube.com...

the way i see it it goes 1 of a couple ways... either the government is hiding something like ufos and doing a good job covering it up or they're leading us to believe there are ufos and its gonna be 9/11 all over again.

The real problems we face are over population/depopulation, running out of food, the world becoming too polluted, solar flares/storms, massive earthquakes and volcanos, tsunamis.

All the information i've accumulated on here the facts for everything are scary bad for the future