Middle School Student Behavior

Originally posted by PinkAndBlack

THE KIDS ARE FINALLY AWAKENING!

They are finally realizing that blindly listening to what their superiors have to say just isn't as worth it as you try to teach them to believe.

It's not their fault you're an authoritative figurehead in a fascist prison machine that manufactures our youth into perfectly shaped cogs built to replace the old corroding ones once they crumble and wither away.

That's seriously a load of uninformed, mindless crap.

I just graduated high school last year and trust me, the large majority of these students are not in the least bit concerned with any "authoritative corrpution" involving the government or any other authority figures. They are completely clueless as to how the world works, much less how our own government is run. All they care about is getting instant gratification and being entertained through their many electronical devices. They indulge in celebrity worship and some (mainly girls) even try to model themselves after a certain celebrity. Individualism and critical thinking is almost completely absent. The state of our youth is exactly where TPTB want them to be. Being downright hateful and ungreatful towards teachers who genuinly care about your education doesn't prove anything. Being violent and destructive doesn't in any way improve the way things are.

And don't all species reproduce simply to replace themselves?

Originally posted by HarmonicNights
Originally posted by PinkAndBlack

THE KIDS ARE FINALLY AWAKENING!

They are finally realizing that blindly listening to what their superiors have to say just isn't as worth it as you try to teach them to believe.

It's not their fault you're an authoritative figurehead in a fascist prison machine that manufactures our youth into perfectly shaped cogs built to replace the old corroding ones once they crumble and wither away.

That's seriously a load of uninformed, mindless crap.

I just graduated high school last year and trust me, the large majority of these students are not in the least bit concerned with any "authoritative corrpution" involving the government or any other authority figures. They are completely clueless as to how the world works, much less how our own government is run. All they care about is getting instant gratification and being entertained through their many electronical devices. They indulge in celebrity worship and some (mainly girls) even try to model themselves after a certain celebrity. Individualism and critical thinking is almost completely absent. The state of our youth is exactly where TPTB want them to be. Being downright hateful and ungreatful towards teachers who genuinly care about your education doesn't prove anything. Being violent and destructive doesn't in any way improve the way things are.

And don't all species reproduce simply to replace themselves?

What's sad is people like this are just as brainwashed :\

reply to post by Anttyk47


Exactly. People somehow mistake that anti-social behavior as "revolutionary" (for lack of a better term), when in reality, they are ignorant, consuming drones.

reply to post by aero56


Have you considered teaching the children to meditate ? A 5 minute meditation in the beginnning of the class might help to calm the kids down.. It may be useful to help them do some simple chanting such as "AA", "OO", "UMMM" .. Might be helpful ..

reply to post by Whatsreal


I think all us teachers can write a book on stories that you describe. People who are ridiculing teachers in this thread have no idea what we're up against. Teachers like you who teach in very large cities have it worse! I tip my hat off to you.

I completely understand your frustration when you need to get help for an out of control student. It makes you feel like your hands are tied!! And than you have to go back to the classroom with that same student who knows he's going to get away with it. How can you keep your mind on straight and continue teaching when a kid does that to your wife? When you try to enforce discipline on behavior like that, many time we find it goes on deaf ears.

Originally posted by Anttyk47

Originally posted by HarmonicNights
Originally posted by PinkAndBlack

THE KIDS ARE FINALLY AWAKENING!

They are finally realizing that blindly listening to what their superiors have to say just isn't as worth it as you try to teach them to believe.

It's not their fault you're an authoritative figurehead in a fascist prison machine that manufactures our youth into perfectly shaped cogs built to replace the old corroding ones once they crumble and wither away.

That's seriously a load of uninformed, mindless crap.

I just graduated high school last year and trust me, the large majority of these students are not in the least bit concerned with any "authoritative corrpution" involving the government or any other authority figures. They are completely clueless as to how the world works, much less how our own government is run. All they care about is getting instant gratification and being entertained through their many electronical devices. They indulge in celebrity worship and some (mainly girls) even try to model themselves after a certain celebrity. Individualism and critical thinking is almost completely absent. The state of our youth is exactly where TPTB want them to be. Being downright hateful and ungreatful towards teachers who genuinly care about your education doesn't prove anything. Being violent and destructive doesn't in any way improve the way things are.

And don't all species reproduce simply to replace themselves?

What's sad is people like this are just as brainwashed :\

What's really sad is that the current, and recent past student are taught everyone is equal--there are no winners or losers-----everyone gets a trophy---and minimal effort in anything is just enough to get everyone to pass.
A show of energy or intelligence gets them analyzed, intervened and drugged into a semblance of the status quo.

Is it such a shock that they, in the majority, can't form relationships, stay single into their 30's, can't hold a steady job, and live in their parent's basement---the boys playing video games 24/7 and the girls stuck in front of the TV watching MTV and (fake) reality shows because the only life they have is a virtual one?


The indoctrination doesn't pan out in the real world.

As a student myself I also feel let down by the school, I'd say by the teachers but it's not like they can do anything.
I had to move class because of people in said class acting up all the time.
Result? I got a crappy grade at the end of my exams. Probably my fault, however I know if I was in previous class I would have done much better.

In the UK, the majority of teenagers acting up are the ones who can be classed as 'chav'. Stereotypical? Idc. How it was in my previous school.

What certain groups of British society fail to realise is, the world is a stupid and cruel place, so acting like an idiot when someone is trying to teach you something is stupid and cruel.

reply to post by Equinox99


I agree some classrooms need to start using technology to teach and get away from the old 40 minute lectures. One of the biggest problems is $$$$ for the technology. That being said...

My lab has over 40 thousand dollars worth of computers and CAD software. Every student has their own dual core computer with a 21 inch flat screen. I have up-to-date technology that is upgraded every 4 years. I also have projectors and a Promethean board to demonstrate on and learn terminology. I use power points to explain terminology with added humor between slides, I have an electronic Jeopardy game where every student has a wireless remote control buzzer and their own electronic score board. They play the game Jeopardy on a large flat screen and pick categories related to the terms they need to learn for my class. They compete for school t-shirts, license plates and other school related items. They also play team basketball with a small basketball hoop to learn other terminology. They build balsa wood buildings from their CAD drawings. They also build balsa wood airplanes and plastic models. We have bridge building competitions. These students have complete access to the internet in my lab. I know how boring lectures can be so if I do talk it's with a power point or a you tube training video.

When parents come to my lab the first thing they say is, boy this looks like a fun lab. I wish they had this when I was in school!

Now after listing everything I said above, I still have a hand full of students that just don't want to participate in anything!!!!!!! They would prefer to just sit there and surf the internet or keep pulling out their cell phones and texting their friends (a major problem in schools today). So what's the answer? Here's a classroom that has all the bells and whistles, a teacher that is trying to make learning fun with technology, yet I still have a handful of students that just don't care to do anything.

See what happens when you take Prayer and Paddling out of school.

Originally posted by Anttyk47
...

What we're doing wrong?
We hire counslers to force kids to not learn while they're in school, but instead force them to speak to these people because those kids are "PROBLEMS"
We threaten kids with expulsion suspension detention - like they're 6 year olds getting punished for stealing cookies before dinner.
We say they're young adults, but treat them like toddlers.
We force students to learn in a way that they might not be compforatble learning in, or is not the best way to teach a young adult.
Most importantly, we force them with knowledge we think they need.


And on a side note, we built a institution that simply creates people to not think.
I'm a young adult in a crisis because i dont know how to handle seeing the majority of my age group act so inhuman. We're creating non-humans

That side note woulda led me to a big rant. Anyways hope you enjoy this post WeRpeons - and anyone else interested in this topic.

Anthony, imho you come across much better in this post than on the other thread. I left a rather nasty post on your other thread, and I don't take that back, but now I see the school may have really beaten you up. Maybe what you lack was a "sense of danger" that you were being shunted into a category that they want to fail.

From my own kids in school, I know the importance of staying on the right side of the disciplinary apparatus. It seems designed to create failure. The school goes into self-protection mode and puts you on the outside, and once you're on the outside there are a lot of special conditions designed to make it almost impossible to be treated as a normal kid again.

Why does this happen? Many reasons I'm sure. Asking the wrong questions about 9/11 might be a reason today. Boys who act like boys and not girls has been a reason for a long time: classes expect and demand girl-like behavior of all students. Females feel free to correct me -- maybe it doesn't come so easy for you either. But it's worse for many boys.

When I was in public school many years ago, the self-protection mode didn't exist as far as I know. I think many people in the school genuinely wanted kids to go through smoothly and succeed in a reasonable way. If you made a mistake as a kid but learned from it, people wanted to forget it, welcome you back and move on. It was a good thing! Now there's a zero-tolerance attitude and a whole passel of federal programs, designed to allow and encourage schools to act in a zero-tolerance way that filters out independence.

It's the way our society has changed, and all I have to say is that we'd better learn to slip thru the cracks and create the necessary appearances of conformity when it suits our goals. Otherwise we just let them block us, and that's unfortunate.

reply to post by aero56

This problem/problems are not easily answered, because the answer is very broad. First of all; this educational indoctrination of people is totally and completely unnatural. How would you feel if you were being forced to learn something you didn't care about? Sure, it's been done for years and years, more successfully so in the past; but that was also during stricter times, when you had parents involved with the children's education, and much smaller classes with more individualized attention.
and there wasn't much to learn back then! You were either going to be a farm boy, a factory worker, or maybe a dozen other possibilities. I'm 30, and most people I know still don't know what they would want to do for the REST OF THEIR LIVES. Now you are trying to groom kids into their future from middle school on. You have both parents working, if you're LUCKY, both parents live in the SAME home, but I'm sure you know most kids have broken homes now, so they don't even get a somewhat balance of strict/love. Kids live with a huge amount of stress in their homes as well as at school, not to mention the constant stress of life itself going on around us. Then you have these 'schools' where you teachers teach us 'curriculum' versus the TRUTH. The government writes what we learn; so tell me something... why is it the U.S. never does anything wrong? I'll bet in history books around the world they talk about foul things we've done. The fact is, everything we learn is to make the U.S. look good, and that's a crock. We have the internet, and kids use it... they are not stupid. This country is way to young to consider itself perfect; but I digress... The children don't know all this... yet... but they have a natural resistance to the b.s. situation like 'school'. If education is so important to everyone, why does it cost so much? Do you realize how many rocket scientists or doctors we'd have if education was free? The whole system is wrong from soup to nuts, and until you all realize that, we are doomed to keep repeating this crap. I commend you for teaching, are you sure you are teaching the truth? Even if you are, you will deal with these unruly children, because society dictates both parents must work 75-80% of the time, and the kids don't get raised properly. They are left to their own devices, video games, movies, drugs, sex, whatever. And you wonder why you are dealing with these problems? You can't band-aid the problems you are having with these kids. No pill will fix it, you will only sedate them. It's NOT ADD or ADHD, it's SOCIETY. LEARN IT, KNOW IT and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Kids are left to make this world into what they want/expect, because no one with proper guidance shows them the truth; not to mention, once you learn that the rest of the world grew up on these same principals and attitudes, it pretty much leaves us all screwed. So my advise to you would be, be real with the kids, level with them, tell them what's REALLY going on in the world, and how they truly are our only help. Let them know how badly they are needed, because they are closing their grip on us slowly more and more every day. We need to break free, and make this world the heaven it could be. Not this CONSUMERIST SIDE SHOW. Good luck. Oh, and by the way, a good grade has nothing to do with a good student. Just because you have kids that get good grades, does NOT mean they are smart. Could very well mean they are good at memorizing. I flunked out of Highschool my 11th grade year because I goofed off too much. Hodgson Vo-Tech in Newark, DE. if anyone reading knows me.. 'Big Ern'.... I had a blast in highschool. I screwed off messed with teachers, ditched classes, all kinds of stuff, then I got expelled. I still made a life for myself; I didn't need what they were teaching me. (in the regular classes) Math - yes, English - maybe, Auto-tech I took, but I didn't need any of the other stuff. Our minds gravitate towards what we like to do. I think that should be nurtured in children, and we will go a lot further. IMHO.
One last thing... teach EMPATHY. All beings know right from wrong from birth, I don't care what anyone says, but that is the truth, It is EMPATHY we all need to learn. Teach it PLEASE.

Originally posted by elevatedone
See what happens when you take Prayer and Paddling out of school.

Surely a super moderator would have more to say than a... one liner?

To be honest with you the standard public school system is a complete joke..
when i went to high school it was a joke as well.
then i got expelled for fighting in school, foolish mistake on my part.
Public school has too many rules, they think it helps combat problems that arise, but that is not the case.

Take dress code for example : "students are not allowed to wear hats in the building"
for what reason? they are a distraction.
sorry bro, but im gonna sit here and stare at your hat all day.

When i was expelled, i went to an Alternative school, and it was singlehandedly the most enjoyable school experience i have ever encountered.. we were allowed to wear hats, listen to our music, wear what we wanted, talk to our friends, roam the halls, and there were no set dates to have work in on time
instead we had a points system
you miss a school day and you lose points, you miss enough and your points go negative, if you dont bring them back up by a certain time (usually a week) you get expelled.
there were also rewards for having the most points, which encouraged us to go to class.
the relaxed atmosphere and the unset homework dates, students worked at their own pace, and were able to graduate months before their peers in public school.

I don't understand why public school systems dont implement these methods, i guarantee students would be happier and so would teachers...

The reason these students act the way they do is because
1. they are entering puberty.
2. the rules system leaves them feeling trapped and imprisoned
3. they have no sort of freedom at schools.

Lunch detention?
sorry but when i got lunch detention at the end of it, there was hardly any good food choices left or the line was so long by then that we didnt get to eat.
since when has starving been used to punish in school systems.
i find it a little messed up.

reply to post by NeoAstra


Lol since when has starving been a punishment.
Have you ever had in school suspension? It's like detention for 8 hours.
EIGHT HOURS SITTING ON YOUR CHAIR.
I went home and got medication for my back problems. Because i had ISS for 3 days in a row.

The teachers should get ISS a full day before they slap ISS to all the kids like it will change them

Originally posted by NeoAstra
Public school has too many rules, they think it helps combat problems that arise, but that is not the case.

Fortunately, life is full of "rules". The purpose of the education system is to prepare the students for life. An important part of that is to recognize that we are all subject to "rules" or laws, our entire lives. Too many think it is alright to ignore the rules, with which they disagree. The problem with that is, if permitted, everyone would have a different set of rules and that would result in utter chaos.

School systems must have one set of rules for all students. It is completely ridiculous to presume that, even in a public system as small as mine (8 students in my graduating class and about 100 in K-12), each student be treated differently. Sure, we are individuals, but discipline must be equal.

...the most enjoyable school experience i have ever encountered..

School is supposed to be an environment for learning, not having fun. Sure, there should be entertaining and fun activities to break up the monotony, but the classroom is not a playground.

we were allowed to wear hats, listen to our music, wear what we wanted, talk to our friends, roam the halls, and there were no set dates to have work in on time
instead we had a points system
you miss a school day and you lose points, you miss enough and your points go negative, if you dont bring them back up by a certain time (usually a week) you get expelled.
there were also rewards for having the most points, which encouraged us to go to class.
the relaxed atmosphere and the unset homework dates, students worked at their own pace, and were able to graduate months before their peers in public school.

Here are the problems with what you've described.

1) In the real world (I'm talking about after high school and college), you most likely will not be permitted to wear your hat, listen to music, wear whatever you want, talk to others and interrupt work requirements or roam the halls. You will be required to exercise discipline and complete the work, for which you are being paid. Failure to do so results in unemployment.

2) There is no such thing as a "point system" in your job. In most cases, your employer needs to be able to count on you being on the job. If not, the work isn't completed and he/she loses income. Again, failure to show up for work results in unemployment.

3)I can't think of a single career, in which there are no deadlines for work completion. There is no such thing as "work at your own pace". Even for the self-employed, there are deadlines set by customers.

By not establishing boundaries and guidelines and strictly adhering to them, the school system is setting up their students for failure. Certainly, there will be exceptions and if you are one of them, I congratulate you.

I didn't mean to come off as lecturing you, and if I did I apologize. My post was intended to only point out the flaws with the system you described.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

As to other posts in this thread... I am not surprised at the "Screw the system, man!" attitude of a couple of posters. However, I have a question to pose to you.

How often are you angered at the ineptness of others you encounter? Does it make you mad that your quarter-pounder has mayo, instead of the mustard you ordered? How about not getting the correct change at the register? Or, do you feel ripped off when you pay for a service and it is inadequate? What about paying for a product that is defective or doesn't last as long as you thought it should? How many times have you heard about building contractors taking shortcuts and delivering an inferior product?

Well, I've got news for you. More often than not, that is the result of someone who just doesn't care about their work or the person who is paying for it. That's the "Screw the system" and "I don't care about anyone but me" attitudes at work. That's the result of people not learning respect and responsibility.

And those two things are the root of the problems addressed by the OP. No respect and no personal responsibility. And, how ignorant is it to demand that teachers respect you, as a student, but have no respect for the teachers? I've had this debate with another ATSer. It is my opinion every person should have your respect, until they demonstrate they are not deserving. Then, if you have done something to cause another to lose respect for you, it is up to you to earn it back.

Another member posted something along the lines of "the old way doesn't work anymore" and suggested a new system of education. In reality, the "old way" did work, but others came along and decided they could change it for the better. Well, the mess we have now, is the result of those "improvements". We need to revert to the "old way" of 20 or so years ago.

Then, it was more about educating the child and not about increasing government funding. Then, it was about the school being the parent, for the 7 hours you were there. Then, it was about the teacher having the last word and your parents supporting their decision. Then, it was about educators who loved teaching and weren't just there for the paycheck (and I'm certain many still do and, obviously, the OP is one of them or he/she wouldn't have taken the time address the issue here).

What has been lost is the purpose of our primary and secondary educational systems. They are to prepare students for the future. They are to provide a foundation upon which the student can build a future. And, in order to do so, requires discipline.

To the OP and other teachers who have posted here... Thank you. You have chosen a challenging career and you have my utmost respect.

Originally posted by NadaCambia

Originally posted by Imightknow
They are not being taught empathy nor compassion.

More drivel! This generation has more empathy and compassion than any previous generation. It's irrefutable.

Are you forgetting that your generation is made up of racist, bigoted, ignorant war mongers? Or does respecting authority make them better people regardless? Shame your generation had no respect for anything other than authority. If they had the ability to think for themselfs, along with the most basic of moral compasses, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.

Is it really that hard to figure out why elders aren't respected in Western countries?

So, it is irrefutable?

Are you talking about the generation that travelled half way around the world to free Jews from concentration camps. Are you talking about he ones that built the Tenessee Valley Authority and helped supply electricity to tens of thousands of people that the corporations said weren't profitable enough? Are you talking about the ones that literally sacrificed life and limb for the forty hour work week and basic safety standards in the work place? I know you couldn't be talking about the generation that fought to end child labor.

Maybe you are talking about the generation that came after them. Maybe you are talking about the ones that protested in the streets by the thousands to end the Vietnam War and ensure civil rights for all. You know the generation that saw the developement of the Peace Corps. You know the generation where people sacrificed their lifes to ensure that Jim Crow laws died. The one that stood to to toe with the national guard and lost eight people at Kent State University. The same generation that fought and scrapped for a woman's right to privacy in contraception. I'm sure you couldn't be talking about those people.

How about you step back and look at history. There have been dark parts in every generation. Humans are not perfect. The thing that has made America great so far is we keep striving to be a little bit better every generation, every decade, and every day. We are going through some dark years. That is undeniable. If anything I would say the current 18 - 40 age demographic has lost its way. (I am part of that demographic) It doesn't bode well for those coming after us.

Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by NeoAstra
Public school has too many rules, they think it helps combat problems that arise, but that is not the case.

Fortunately, life is full of "rules". The purpose of the education system is to prepare the students for life. An important part of that is to recognize that we are all subject to "rules" or laws, our entire lives. Too many think it is alright to ignore the rules, with which they disagree. The problem with that is, if permitted, everyone would have a different set of rules and that would result in utter chaos.

School systems must have one set of rules for all students. It is completely ridiculous to presume that, even in a public system as small as mine (8 students in my graduating class and about 100 in K-12), each student be treated differently. Sure, we are individuals, but discipline must be equal.

...the most enjoyable school experience i have ever encountered..

School is supposed to be an environment for learning, not having fun. Sure, there should be entertaining and fun activities to break up the monotony, but the classroom is not a playground.

we were allowed to wear hats, listen to our music, wear what we wanted, talk to our friends, roam the halls, and there were no set dates to have work in on time
instead we had a points system
you miss a school day and you lose points, you miss enough and your points go negative, if you dont bring them back up by a certain time (usually a week) you get expelled.
there were also rewards for having the most points, which encouraged us to go to class.
the relaxed atmosphere and the unset homework dates, students worked at their own pace, and were able to graduate months before their peers in public school.

Here are the problems with what you've described.

1) In the real world (I'm talking about after high school and college), you most likely will not be permitted to wear your hat, listen to music, wear whatever you want, talk to others and interrupt work requirements or roam the halls. You will be required to exercise discipline and complete the work, for which you are being paid. Failure to do so results in unemployment.

2) There is no such thing as a "point system" in your job. In most cases, your employer needs to be able to count on you being on the job. If not, the work isn't completed and he/she loses income. Again, failure to show up for work results in unemployment.

3)I can't think of a single career, in which there are no deadlines for work completion. There is no such thing as "work at your own pace". Even for the self-employed, there are deadlines set by customers.

By not establishing boundaries and guidelines and strictly adhering to them, the school system is setting up their students for failure. Certainly, there will be exceptions and if you are one of them, I congratulate you.

I didn't mean to come off as lecturing you, and if I did I apologize. My post was intended to only point out the flaws with the system you described.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

As to other posts in this thread... I am not surprised at the "Screw the system, man!" attitude of a couple of posters. However, I have a question to pose to you.

How often are you angered at the ineptness of others you encounter? Does it make you mad that your quarter-pounder has mayo, instead of the mustard you ordered? How about not getting the correct change at the register? Or, do you feel ripped off when you pay for a service and it is inadequate? What about paying for a product that is defective or doesn't last as long as you thought it should? How many times have you heard about building contractors taking shortcuts and delivering an inferior product?

Well, I've got news for you. More often than not, that is the result of someone who just doesn't care about their work or the person who is paying for it. That's the "Screw the system" and "I don't care about anyone but me" attitudes at work. That's the result of people not learning respect and responsibility.

And those two things are the root of the problems addressed by the OP. No respect and no personal responsibility. And, how ignorant is it to demand that teachers respect you, as a student, but have no respect for the teachers? I've had this debate with another ATSer. It is my opinion every person should have your respect, until they demonstrate they are not deserving. Then, if you have done something to cause another to lose respect for you, it is up to you to earn it back.

Another member posted something along the lines of "the old way doesn't work anymore" and suggested a new system of education. In reality, the "old way" did work, but others came along and decided they could change it for the better. Well, the mess we have now, is the result of those "improvements". We need to revert to the "old way" of 20 or so years ago.

Then, it was more about educating the child and not about increasing government funding. Then, it was about the school being the parent, for the 7 hours you were there. Then, it was about the teacher having the last word and your parents supporting their decision. Then, it was about educators who loved teaching and weren't just there for the paycheck (and I'm certain many still do and, obviously, the OP is one of them or he/she wouldn't have taken the time address the issue here).

What has been lost is the purpose of our primary and secondary educational systems. They are to prepare students for the future. They are to provide a foundation upon which the student can build a future. And, in order to do so, requires discipline.

To the OP and other teachers who have posted here... Thank you. You have chosen a challenging career and you have my utmost respect.

You're such an Hardheaded oldtimer that your entire post makes me sad.
There's nothing to say to you because you have no leway in conversation, no slack to give. It's what you say goes because its how you see it.


Side note.
Don't compare 13 year olds with people that do inadequate things at work because the people at work have a "screw the system" additude.
Just because they act the same (lack of respect) doesn't mean that the 13 years old have the same problem.

reply to post by Anttyk47


But it was on topic and my personal opinion.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
...
Maybe you are talking about the generation that came after them. Maybe you are talking about the ones that protested in the streets by the thousands to end the Vietnam War and ensure civil rights for all. ...

In all fairness, the protests against the Vietnam war would have been much less if we had not had a draft. Kids were afraid of being drafted so they protested. Perfectly reasonable, but that's what it was.

Civil rights protests? Mostly (though not entirely) by minority-race individuals who wanted to increase their own civil rights.

Originally posted by Xen0m0rpH

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by daeoeste

 

Unfortunately, bad parenting is not being considered as an issue when it comes to classroom misbehavior. These behaviors are a key element in test scoring. Poor test scoring is being blamed on the teachers. "Good' teachers are going to be given merit pay. I suggest that a "good" teacher removed from a high scoring school and placed in an urban school, would no longer be considered a "good" teacher. Granted there are teachers who are not as motivated or creative as other teachers, but overall, most teachers are very motivated and really care about their students. The issue is not good or bad teachers. It is good or bad parenting, but the government thinks otherwise.

When I graduated school, most of the other students of my grade had grown up slightly. I looked back slightly, just to see how the kids in Middle School acted and they were utter terrors. I remember my classmates and I weren't perfect for sure, but we were nothing like that.

I also remember we weren't treated like people. We were treated like robots. Be quiet, sit down, behave. And what I've noticed, as aero mentioned, is that the teachers are blamed.

In actuality, the government is the issue here. I know that gets thrown around a lot here, but it is quite true in this case.

The government establishes a curriculum, which is updated every year if I remember correctly. I'm all for learning and everything, but it's a little absurd when following this curriculum must also provide time for test scoring, which the state government dishes out according to these scores.

The federal government continues to cut funding every year, while providing a more strict curriculum and test scores become higher and higher to achieve. If the school does not achieve these scores, they lose funding and possibly could be closed if low enough.

So, all the curriculum is based on this school testing, rather than learning. It's pretty obvious, I noticed this going through school. And it's not just me, my father started to teach at our local college about the time I started school, so I knew what the teachers were going through.

The government cuts funding, which makes the school crack down on teachers, which crack down on students. Everything the teachers rely on to live their life comes from us, and that's not right. In a round a bout way, the government has made us responsible. How can you be so concerned about the students without actually being concerned about us as people? All we learn is on those tests. Which may not seem a lot. But when a world history class becomes an American history class, I think somethings not quite right.

Your post stood out to me for some reason. I can't say for sure why, but I want to give you credit. I will say that many people feel china is the ideal of educational excellence and that we should strive in that direction. I guess these people are ignoring that china is communist and that their situation is different from ours. But what good will that do when people have convinced themselves a nerd in Shanghai is the product of a genius school system? How is this related to your points? Maybe someone knows.

Now, about me.

I'm 33 years old. I graduated from HS a month before I was 20. My mom died when I was 8. I grew up in a strict christian fundamentalist household. My dad pulled our pants down and spanked us with sticks, belts, and even plywood. In school I listened to teachers and did as I was told. I was shy. I only had a few friends while growing up, and most of them were in gradeschool.

So I behaved and got good grades (3.8 gpa in HS, 3.8 in community college). My favorite classes were geometry, art, keyboarding and word processing, physical education (even though I was always nervous and could never relax due to the teasing), and, generally, science classes. No lies on my part. I'm telling you the truth. But there's something the teachers and I couldn't stop: the teasing. I got teased and there was no mercy. This went on from 2nd grade up until my my junior year in HS.

What's the point of my post? Well, I'm telling you that I was not the troublemaker. I got very good grades all throughout school including the 2 years I attended community college. So everything seemed cheery up until 2000 when I got my associates degree. Then, for 10 years, my life has drifted as though I hit a wall. I am still at home with my parents and an utter disaster. I know of many students in my class, the so called troublemakers and unruly sort referenced here, they're now married and successful. I have seen them on myspace and on other social sites on the internet. Additionally, many of hte kids that teased me grew out of it my junior and senior year of HS. They too grew up to be successful.

So here I am. Your behaved and well remembered pupil that made you feel like a teacher. And i'm a failure. So what excuse are you going to use now? Who are you going to blame?

I had a dream a year ago. Actually, it was a nightmare. I was in school again (i have lots of dreams where I'm still in school). It was recess. I was in the parking lot with my basketball. There was an aide next to me. Then I heard the bell. Uh oh. I was looking at hte parking lot and my car wasn't there (ignoring that I was in 7th or 8th grade in the dream and shouldn't have a car!). I freaked. The aide screamed at me, "Go to class now or I will send you to the principal!" I hesitated and she came towards me. I was starting to feel angry at her. She was so square and metallic and servile and scary. I told her something like, "My car is gone. What's going on. It's not in the parking lot." She ignored me and grabbed me and pulled me in the direction of the school and said nothing. I woke up.

When I woke up I had what I can only describe as enlightenment. I saw a school, or my dream of a school, that had been overtaken by overzealous authoritarian zombie robots. They could only see my error and could not see anything else. They didn't care that I was human or that my car was gone or that I had a problem. They could only see their rulebook and were completely blinded by it.

I know you think discipline and hurting students is the answer but like someone else said here, often times the answer is buried within a riddle which is itself buried within a mystery. And as another said here, reactionary impulses like punishment do not always work. In my many years of learning and reading I have come upon many things that suggest to me that punishment is a crude and primitive form of control. Maybe I am wrong and irresponsible to say these things since I couldn't control a fly, but if the only answer you can summon for unruly kids is to lock them up and throw away the key then I am frightened for our future. But most of all, I am horrified that students will have to go through it!

No, I'm not attacking teachers. I remember many teachers well. Many students in my classes behaved badly. I remember one of my teachers breaking down in class and crying and telling us how he was stressed because of his heart disease and difficulty trying to teach us math. He put his all into it and yet we would still talk when we shouldn't and ignore him when we should listen. I also noticed a pattern with teacher substitutes. The kids in my classes would abuse them, especially if they detected any sort of discomfort or inexperience. I hated to see it, but again, it almost always happened.

While all of that's bad and paints a real sick portrait of students, I'd also like to say that many of those same students moved on and did fine in life. They're no the miserable man I am. So something in your equations is wrong. Something in your logic is wrong. Something in your assessment of all this is not right. I can't say for sure where to look, but I feel very strongly this "punish them, discipline them!" is a reaction, an impulse even, but it's not an answer.

And no, I am not exaggerating the statements in this post. Nor do I have a bone to pick. If me being honest is a problem, call my lawyer.

NOTE. This is my first post. This thread called for me.