Dealing with cops, understanding your rights,.... by a cop.

reply to post by surfnow2


ah, there you are. and you, surf2cop, give all law enforcement a bad name when you prove your poor discretion by condoning murder in two cases that were proven to be murder.

btw: i know the difference between a gun and a taser, so i can assume the cop in the vid did too. if a "criminal" shot someone in the back who was tied up, would we likewise feel sorry for them? i have a better idea, dont use tasers when victims are already handcuffed on their faces, and dont condone murder. its bad cops who promote illegal attitudes like this who put all law enforcement officers at risk.

and surf2cop, you should take the "surf" outta your name, surfers got heart. so you said the 70yr old grandma SHOULD be tasered because she didnt move promptly. so what if she was at risk of heart attack and could just as easily been escorted by the side of the arm. what you dont know was that the woman in that video was "my" grandma. i dont want her dead from stroke because some cop had no brains or heart. oh wait, if it was YOUR grandma, then it would be ok to taser her for no reason? you would do that to your own grandma? or is it just my grandma that should be treated that way? unfortunately, thats the type of compassionless psychotic moral system many officers illegally and incorretly apply.

this thread started off as an interesting discussion with reasonable discourse and descended to a point blacks and whites and veiled death threats from not only from a few loons on ATS, but from th eofficers themselves!!!

shame shame shame when we have a situation of cultural polarities such as represented by the police shootings this week [God bless all the victims and their families]. i dare suggest that a descended arguement by the officers on this blog might encourage nutcases to believe that uneccesary lethal force is sane in some way, and might encourage some nutcase to hurt an officer, based upon their own support of murder [the videos] and veiled threats of lethal force. why would a cop come on here trying to represent and yet descend to that level? how could these officers encourage such polarity when their intent was to do the opposite.

i believe the situation in law enforcement, socio-culturally, is so out of balance and health when taking in socio-economic and political reALITIES in our supposedly "free society", that this descending conversation is always the end result. its possible to work out kinks in imperfect systems. but when the root elements of an entire structure are systemically flawed, there can be no solution rationally worked out, so to speak. perhaps thats why this type of conversation always devolves to us and them, and mutual hatred. its time for some sort of peace given the recent headlines, somehow, somewhere, law enforcement and the people need to get on the same side again. thats the sad part. how far we are from that...

reply to post by urmenimu2


what murder are you refering to?

reply to post by urmenimu2


shame on me for what? the criminal committs an act and its my fault?
have you ever been involved in an altercation before where you have to make a split second decision on the side of the road by yourself?.
i dont care how old someone is, it is irrelevant. it is the persons behavior and demeanor that determines
the course an officer will take. do you think the officer enjoys tazering someone? i can assure you we dont
it is no fun being pepper sprayed or tazered but we get it to so we know the effects as well. a police officer goes out does his job and goes back to his family at the end of the night. i stand right by my comments because unless you have been in that situation you would never know.

i bet if the situation were reversed and these people seriously injured or killed a police officer. the responses on here would be, why didn the officer use a tazer? what about additional training? its always blame the law enforcement officer. people that committ crimes, suck it up, take responsibility for your actions and press on. stop blaming other people for the decisions you make.

how about trying to do the right thing?

The police here in Blighty are now out of control. They are a law unto themselves... If your house is burgled, you are threatened or robbed, or your property is vandolised there's little point in phoning the police as they are more interested in sitting in the back of vans catching speeding motorists or sitting in lay byes in their panda cars drinking coffee and doing the crossword.
A few weeks ago I was actually pulled up by the police for the hideous crime of "eyeballing" them. For daring to look at them I had to stand at the roadside while they checked me out, checked my car and emptied the glove box and boot onto the pavement. Once they found nothing they warned me that they were watching me and drove off leaving me to pick everything up...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the police meant to uphold the law and keep us all safe!?

reply to post by CholmondleyWarner


you should have tazed them, then beat them within inches of their lives, that's the only real way to get any respect.

Thanks OP. Very solid advice. It's hard to empathize with a cop. I do try to be as helpful as I can while still maintaining my rights.

Originally posted by surfnow2
reply to post by urmenimu2

 

shame on me for what? the criminal committs an act and its my fault?
have you ever been involved in an altercation before where you have to make a split second decision on the side of the road by yourself?.
i dont care how old someone is, it is irrelevant. it is the persons behavior and demeanor that determines
the course an officer will take. do you think the officer enjoys tazering someone? i can assure you we dont
it is no fun being pepper sprayed or tazered but we get it to so we know the effects as well. a police officer goes out does his job and goes back to his family at the end of the night. i stand right by my comments because unless you have been in that situation you would never know.

i bet if the situation were reversed and these people seriously injured or killed a police officer. the responses on here would be, why didn the officer use a tazer? what about additional training? its always blame the law enforcement officer. people that committ crimes, suck it up, take responsibility for your actions and press on. stop blaming other people for the decisions you make.

how about trying to do the right thing?

yes, shame on you for condoning the needless, insane tasering of a 70 year old grandma, and shame on you for saying the officer acted reasonably in the videos showing cops murdering people. it was proven in court that they acted illegally, and you still stood up for them AGAINST the law. shame.

yes, of course i have been in situations BY MYSELF where i have had to react instantly by the side of the road in a violent situation. what guy who has a middle finger and a temper hasnt? but at no time were my thoughts or actions directed toward using uneccessary lethal force or a taser - maybe because i actually dont view other humans as animals, even in a fight. i have something called "empathy". thats why i am not a psychopath like you. and yes, i have been employed in war zones, and i was alone, not behind the sandbags restricted to base. yes, it is intense, and yes, fear can become a problem. but at no time did i feel lethal force was desireable or reasonable or productive when it wasnt necessary. again, im not a psychopath, like you, and i am actually capible of caring about people in general, in addition to my own needs [unlike you].

you want to taser an old lady that you could just push gently off the road, then you refer to going home at night to your family as your personal goal. the problem with yr psychopathic take on things, is that the 70 yr old lady has to go home at night too. oh wait, you just scarred and ruined her for life and caused her whole family suffering because you tasered her because you are a psychopath who gives all cops a bad name. you create problems for others in the name of your own selfishness, and thusly, you are a punk. dont pretend you are a man because u abuse others so u can go home at night feeling good. dont think you are a man because you faced violence or adversity with a stupid shallow obedient illegal ugliness. i spend alot of time with men, so i know a punk when i see one.

i havent committed any crimes. nor do i intend to. i thusly have no grudge against law enforcement for anything i did. if the old lady had a gun, or had been any kind of threat at all to the officer, yes, taser her. but dont argue that because u have an ugly, psycopathic, even illegal view on your relationship to people you pull over on a traffic stop, that it will ever seem sane to taser an unarmed, non violent, helpless old lady, u friggin psychopath.

yeah man, try to do the right thing. thats what you should try to grow into. i literally cant even comment on this thread anymore because the thought that i am talking to some butt-tard with a gun and a badge who is actually arguing to taser unarmed, not-violent, 70 year old grandmothers makes me feel like crap inside. im gonna ask the boys at the gym if i can tape a picture of what i imagine your grandma tasering face looks like [like a weasel] to the heavy bag and skip the training and just hit that bag for 3 hours straight. thats how non-productive talking to you has become for me. you do shame on all lawenforcement. i dont know any other way to analyze it. i am out. all i can think of is punching that bag. i just see dark around the corners of my vision and i wanna hit that bag. i cant believe people like u exist to drag humanity down. ugh.

reply to post by surfnow2


one last thing mr. not-surfa:

your whole "ima taser the grandma because i am going home safe" mentality...your PSYCHOPATHIC lack of empathy for the populace, isnt even something you came up with on your own. in fact, i wonder if anyone has ever taught you to think for yourself. the whole thing of tasering a grandma so you can sleep comfy is what they are training police to do in academies these days. mr. not-surfa is a victim of that. literally, trained and empowered to be a psychopath toward the populace.

REPEAT: they train these guys that they SHOULD taser the 70 yr old grandma, so they can go home at night. otherwise, it would be "suicide-by-grandma" of course - their own fault. so taser the old bitch, right? thats what this boy has been trained to think. who cares if it causes years of heartache for the granny's family? who cares if it ruins granny's life? you are trained to taser granny, and go home safe, BECAUSE WE WANT YOU TRAINED THAT WAY. yes, there are tons of crazy needless laws, so that the legal system is so complex almost no one understands it, BUT YOU ARE TRAINED TO TASER THE OLD LADY ANYWAY, go home safe at night, suspend your humanity and courage, be a coward, TASER HER.

why do we train you this way? so u can go home safe at night? well, actually you would go home safe at night even if u werent a coward, even if you didnt taser the granny, so thats not the real reason.

the REAL reason "we" train you to treat common innocent people on traffic stops like a hated enemy is that "we" are seperating [polarizing] police and the populace so that our police can handle the crackdown against the american people the way we want when the designed economic collapse occurs. "we" NEED psychopaths, not fresh soft young minds. Andy Griffith and barney fife are no good for society if "we" want some kind of top-down totalitarianism - after all, this isnt mayberry anymore.

thats why this poor simpleton acts like he hates our grandmothers. its not his fault. pity him and his poor addled brainwashed mind. we all know no one sane would ever choose to taser a defenseless grandma. oh, and expect to see more police brutality and social unrest if law enforcement training is not humanized soon. and no, i am not a "freeman" and i dont even know what "freemen" are. actually, i have been a slave my whole life, so would know little of such things. but there is indeed a conspiracy in modern police training tactics, as the people...our humanity and rights, are largely being left out of the eqation. also, as the OP pointed out, combat veterans will be the next wave of those recruited into law enforcement, and no, they receive NO TRAINING to humanize their interactions with "civilians". many will enter the force with PTSD and a differing view of the value of life, and a blurry vision between what constitutes the difference between an american or an iraqi at a checkpoint. they will receive almost NO training in humanity or civil rights.

oh, and mr. not surf? you are not the op, he has more character than you, so stop spamming his thread with your less cultivated sensibilities. i shall do the same. ugh.

reply to post by urmenimu2


if you were a police officer you would understand. non cops dont understand.
i never said going around tazering people because its fun. a persons age means nothing. it is there behavior and demeanor nothing more. if he hadnt tazered her and she ran into traffic everyone would be screaming " why didnt he tazer her? the only person who understands the dynamics of a scene is the officer there. im no pyschopath and i think very logically and have never been accused of excessive force. every person except two were compliant when i arrested them. i treat everyone with respect and dignity even the two who decided to flee.


just because somene is old doesnt make them deadly, and a gun isnt the only deadly weapon out there. its the only one u really here about.

Originally posted by surfnow2
reply to post by urmenimu2

 

if you were a police officer you would understand. non cops dont understand.
i never said going around tazering people because its fun. a persons age means nothing. it is there behavior and demeanor nothing more. if he hadnt tazered her and she ran into traffic everyone would be screaming " why didnt he tazer her? the only person who understands the dynamics of a scene is the officer there. im no pyschopath and i think very logically and have never been accused of excessive force. every person except two were compliant when i arrested them. i treat everyone with respect and dignity even the two who decided to flee.


just because somene is old doesnt make them deadly, and a gun isnt the only deadly weapon out there. its the only one u really here about.

well, then you have proven the statistics are true. being a cop IS NOT even in the list of ten most dangerous jobs. most people ARE compliant. therefore, there was no reason to taser the grandma in the video. if she had appeared VERY aggressive, or had weilded a knife, perhaps there might be some logic to it. i dont WANT to disrespect u, honestly i dont. but if u argue in favor of needless excessive force against grandmas, what option with honor do u leave me?

listen, heres the "conspiracy theory" in all that is illustrated in our discussion: why is maintaining the "PUBLIC TRUST" now less important than tasering grandmas for no reason? the "public trust" is the essence, the theory, the foundation behind everything that keeps an officer safe and keeps the people compliant to the "badge". the PUBLIC TRUST was the foundational theory behind all old school law enforcement theory.

the conspiracy is that across-the-board law enforcement academies/research [and lawenforcement culture] is training officers to abandon the public trust, to adopt more "modern" methods. the more modern methods are brutal. trainees are told this is to protect the officer. but in fact, there is a deep polarity...a deep gulf... being created between established social norms, and the tactical training an officer receives in terms of how to relate to the populace.

the training/theme in law enforcement today has abandoned its central theme - THE PUBLIC TRUST, to adopt a more authoritarian and "taser-oriented" treating of the populace. if you were working with monkeys, monkeys that bite, wouldnt you taser them? ...even if it was an old monkey? you see? new law enforcement methods [in the usa] arent based on civil society, they are based on authoritarian control methods, and we are all biting monkeys. the public trust has been abandoned. the conspiracy is: if law enforcement training has abandoneed its roots in the public trust, swat-team/psychological authoritarian policing is the only remaining option. and they have already abandoned the "public trust" theme in officer training. so you know whats coming.

i really dont think wish-i-was-a-surfa is the problem. he is an employee. he is swept up in a complex wave he cannot analyze by himself, and to that degree is a puppet to original thought or action. there is no other way you could argue to taser an unarmed grandma for no reason, im sorry. unless ur a psycho

reply to post by seeashrink


I have a question.

About a year ago i was stopped by a cop in VA, the reason being my front license plate was not attached to the front. I had the plate clearly visible from the window (lower Righthand Side).

A little background, i actually had the plate attached, and it fell off, luckily it happened in my work parking lot and i found it. The bracket was still attached to the front, and this incident happened the day of. Which, i don't really care rules are rules, it wasn't mounted.

Interesting though, I check the DMV website, and it clearly states, License plates must be "visible" Doesn't say, "mounted", I went and took pictures from all angles, and it was clearly visible from all angles and heights.

So first off, i got pulled over for no reason.

Next the part i question.

When pulled over (on my lunch break mind you) he asked to search me, i refused, because well i'm on lunch. This guy then made me wait, 45 minutes, for a k9. Finally the dog ran around my car and the guy said it was good.

Now, i feel the only reason i had the k9 called was becauuusee....

I have long hair! Yes i have very long hair, and ear gauges, but i work an good job, and was clearly dressed for it, button up, tucked in, fancy pants, lofers. I feel the only reason i got the dog called was my long hair.

So the question. Could have taken legal action for him stereotyping me?

reply to post by doom27


First, did he cite you for the tag?
As far as suing him for profiling due to your life style and personal taste, people have been sued for less. I think that you are right in your assessment and 45 mins for a K9 seems a little long to me. Best thing I can tell you is that lawyers do not take cases they know they cannot win. So, run your story by a couple of lawyers and see what kind of response you get.
Seeashrink

reply to post by surfnow2


The cops around here have the mobile terminals I believe.
The whole stop was pointless though, I've been stopped for no real reasons several times.

Do you by chance know what vehicle enforcement officers are? His car doesn't say police, just vehicle enforcement. I mean I get the jist of it, but we just got one in town and he only patrols a small stretch of road near my house. All he does is pull people over and ticket them and he does it non stop all day. Hundreds of people have reported him, I usually see him pulling over trucks like big rigs and electric company trucks, but he pulls over people too ( i think I've just seen him pulling over the trucks).

Do they bring them in to make money, and let other officers off of traffic work?

Originally posted by urmenimu2

Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by Loki Lyesmyth

 

No fear, just a statement of fact if you mess with or endanger a cops family. I would think this would be common sense.
Seeashrink

and if a cop illegally follows and messes with our family, shall we do the same? does your attitude imply that the only noble option would be to do the same as you, and kill the offender? is that what u espouse? we dont love our families as much as you? you want us also to draw a gun everytime a nutcase in a position of power illegally abuses our family? i'd been in jail along time ago if i did. but for you, its ok? right? you could get away with it?

It is common sense, you don't mess with anyones family, especially not someone who is armed and trained. Officers do not go out with the intention to mess with anyones family. If someone brings crime into there house(drugs, gang activity, domestic violence) they are the ones puting their family in danger...drive by's, gang shootings, accidental firearm discharge(has happened a lot).

Secure

reply to post by xXxtremelySecure


Your logic is appalling.

Cops aren't the only ones who are "trained", so by your criteria, if a cop followed a vet home and seemed to pose a threat, the vet would be more than justified in removing the threat to his family with extreme prejudice. Furthermore, cops illegally violate privacy and harm innocent people every day of the week, even a cursory search will prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt, so to imply infallibilty in that area is ridiculous.

Police are human, and therefore not infallible. "Not infallible", means mistakes are made. That means sometimes even good cops follow someone to their home erroneously and scare the bejeesus out of them at a minimum, and kill innocents in the worst case. When that happens, the public gets a "sorry 'bout that", and the cops involved usually get a paid vacation until things blow over. Justice must be reciprocal. Yes honest mistakes are made, and poor judgment in a stressful situation happens. But when non-police are the ones doing it, they are punished and go to jail. If a cop makes an honest mistake and kills someone innocent, his job should have no bearing on the justice: if anything, his or her punishement should be more severe. No one who kills another human being outside of warfare should ever be allowed the power to kiill again, cop or no.

What bugs me the most about cops is the utter lack of acceptance of reciprocal responsibilities: as a citizen it is my responsibility to behave, not in accordance with merely the law, but also in accordance with what is right, as expressed in the constitution. As a police officer and a citizen, police have an even higher duty to what is right as opposed to what is legal. Laws can be passed by evil persons for evil purposes, and have been. Look at the canine cops in Selma, Alabama during the protests of the 60's: what those cops did was legal, but in no way was it right, or in accordance with the constitution of either the state or country. Those cops failed their duty as citizens, abusing their positions.

One of the most frequent criticisms of criticisms of police brutality caught on video is "You [the public] don't know what happened just before the start of the video." I agree, and would like to extend that thought back in time. The cop doesn't know what occurred before he got there, either. Reciprocal responsibility dictates that if a police officer wants the public to cut him some slack and be patient and not jump to conclusions, the officer must show that same patience and forbearance first, and not escalate a situation by being overly aggressive upon arrival. Too many police seem to view patrolling as their primary duty, and want to rush through situations to get back to it. It never seem to occur to some that SITUATIONS are really what the job is about, and if it takes four hours to resolve it peacefully, then that's time well spent.

A police officer swears to uphold the law, yet far too often we the public observe cases of favoritism, discrimination, brutality, extortion, etc. A good police officer says, "Yes that happens, but those are just a few bad apples, not all of us are like that, don't judge us based on the actions of a few". Again I agree and would like to extend the thought: we, the public are also mostly good, and would prefer that police not judge us based on the actions of a few bad apples in the general populace. However, we can and will judge you on your failure to uphold your oath by allowing the bad apples to persist, and move freely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and we will judge you for not knowing and abiding by the constitutional rights of citizens. Absolutely no excuses are acceptable there. None.

Being a cop doesn't absolve anyone of their duties and responsibilities as a citizen. Rather it places an extra burden on them. To the police on ATS, I ask this question: if the county you worked for passed a law that was clearly unconstitutional, and would be struck down by the courts eventually, would you or would you not enforce it while it was being challenged, even if you knew the damage done to the victims of it would be irreparable and cause unnecessary anguish?

As a citizen it is your duty to stop such illegal laws, as a police officer it is your duty to enforce the laws. I submit that if you choose to enforce illegal laws while hoping they will be overturned, then you have failed your duty as a citizen, and no citizen should ever again trust you or accept you in polite company, anymore than a soldier who fled the battlefield and caused the deaths or injury of his compatriots should be acccepted: both have failed their duty and caused unnecessay harm.

A police officer should never have to demand respect with implied threats of any sort, if he or she does, they are psychologically unfit for the job. If they can't command respect by giving it, by being non-threatening, then they can't expect the public to view them as anything other than a very real threat to their physical, emotional, and financial security, and are well within their rights to treat them accordingly.

In a civilized society, police must offer respect first, and under no circumstances demand it. If it is demanded then the case is already irretrievably lost. Respect must always be EARNED, and must be earned as a group. If a police group has "a few bad apples", then none of that group, no matter how upright they may be as an individual, is entitled to any respect whatsoever from the public, for by inaction, the good ones are tolerating lawbreaking, failing in their sworn oaths. How can they ask for respect under such circumstances? From the public's perspective, ANY of that group could be the bad apple who can and will harm them without excuse or retribution while the good cops look on.

Police work is difficult, yes,it is stressful, yes, but it isn't particularly dangerous compared to many other professions. Non-police are required to make split-second decisions in stressful situations all the time with lives on the line and never attempt to use it as an excuse for poor judgment: Try being an air traffic controller sometime, or a trucker. A good bouncer resolves more violent confrontations peaceably in a weekend than most cops in a month. So please stop trying to imply that police have some superior right to self-defense than the rest of us based on the nature of the job or the fact that a cop is "trained". Most are very poorly trained from my experience, and I do have experience training people in many fields, including military ones.

Cops are just people with any flaws exaggerated by power: the only respect they deserve by right is that accorded to any potentially life-threatening thing until they prove by their behavior that they deserve personal respect based upon their own respectful behavior. If a cop demands respect from me because he has a badge, a gun, and the ability and will to screw me over if he chooses, he'll get politeness but no respect, only inner contempt for being a failed citizen.

reply to post by apacheman


I have to say, that was well thought out, and right on point. I wish i could always communicate like that, a lot of times I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words, and come across like an ass. I am even worse verbally lol. One thing that has always bothered me, is the cops that seem to be decent people always seem to say "Well this law sucks, and if it were up to me, it would not be law. BUT, since it is law I have to enforce it, it is my job." That but always kills me, as a decent human being, we have rights. There are no buts in my mind. Freedom of speech for example. Many people claim to support freedom of speech, until someone says or writes something they don't agree with, then all bets are off. People are looking to crucify someone over a book, or some words.

reply to post by Salamandy


Hey I don't know if this was said in the thread, but I in regards to your trepidation about being pulled over by an unmarked car, you have the right to not pull over! But, you should call 911, explain your circumstances and location and that you are not comfortable pulling over for an unmarked vehicle without verification. Females take heed, please do this if you ever find yourself in a situation where an "unmarked" car whips out a siren / light show to pull you over. You never know, but it is your right to continue on and find out.

Cheers,

cez

My experience with the law so far has been very positive, I am 39 now. So tonight I was leaving a bar I work at and had a few drinks, since I was off and it is against ABC laws in Virginia to drink at a place of employment when I am on the clock, I am a DJ, but, I get paid directly through them and not a contractor.
I am about 2 miles from my house, when I see a car catching up to me and recognize the headlights as being a police car, but it is to late, as soon as I slow down, boom.. the blue,red lights come on. So I am like, F....
The officer asks for my driver license,registration and if I knew the speed limit, so I say 35, and he says how fast do you think you were going? I say 45 mph. I was doing 50 he says. I cant find my registration, he says no problem, how many drinks have you had? Aww... shooot, I am thinking. So, I say 3 vodka cranberries. He steps back to his car, comes back in a few seconds, ask if I know the device he is holding, I say yes, I am familiar with it. So, I ask if I can get out of my car and blow into it. The officer said sure, we can go on the sidewalk if you like. So we move there, and I blow, and not even 3 seconds pass by and he says ok, stop, and he looks at it , shows me, a 0.92!! Wow. did not think I was at that limit, so he asks me what the limit was, which I do not remember, he says .08
I am freaking screwed I think to my self, all this is happening so quick. So the officer says, you have anyone to pick you up. I say yes. So the officer says, you have 10 minutes for that person to come get you. If they are not here by then, you will be locked up. So I call my doorman buddy, which is dropping off an employee at the time and tell him briefly what is going on and hurry up please.
After the phone call, the officer says, I am cold , you are cold, I advise you to get back into your car, keep warm until your buddy gets here, I am getting in my car, because it is cold out and if you do not want another police car here, I advise you to do what I say. SO , I get in my car, start it up to keep warm, I get out, ask him how my license is, you have +5 on you drivers license sir, get back in your car, and not even a minute passed by, booom... police light comes on and goes off and passes by, and then 2 more goes by and same thing, I was like omfg I am going to jail and he will charge 300 bucks to tow my car, since I asked him if I could move it to a parking space in front of me and how much towing will be if I left it on the side of the road.
I call my friend again, where you at please hurry. He said I am almost there, relax.My friend finally comes pick me up and the officer says, Come and get your license over the loud speaker in his vehicle, Mr.So and so. I give him the 1 sec sign while I move stuff out of my car and drop it off at my friends van, and run back to his patrol car, and thank him very much for the break. This was in prince william county, virginia. I was honest to the officer and did not try to hide anything. They know if you are lying to them! So best bet is to be honest and we both agreed it was a bad judgement call on my part.

reply to post by taidean


.92?

You'd be dead with a BAC that high...impossible.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by taidean

 

.92?

You'd be dead with a BAC that high...impossible.

I saw the device say 0.92. Either way, I am grateful for the officer decision. With alcohol involved, the situation could of cost me more financiall if I would of argued the the fact.