Be Prepared for the Cognitive Infiltration of ATS in the Wake of Arizona Shootings

reply to post by Alethea

Nobody likes to be discussed behind their back. No body likes other people attempting to answer on behalf of themselves. Wouldn't the right thing to do be to extend an invitation to Mr. Sunstein to come to ATS and let his audience ask him some questions about his books, his works, and his ideas of direction for the future? It could be a positive thing, you know. Perhaps ATS could host a monthly or weekly forum of "Featured Guest" on a regular basis. If this idea could come to fruition, I would suggest that those who wish to participate to familiarize themselves with the persons work in order to ask intelligent questions, and the guest could pick and choose what he/she feels is most important and relevant to answer and respond over a the course of a week.

Ah Alethea, have you forgotten this is me? If you read my original thread on Cass Sunstien I linked at the bottom of the opening piece from last year, you will know that in fact, I called Mr. Sunsteins office, left a message on his voicemail informing him of my thread, and an invitation to join in the discussion to present his side.

I also sent him an email providing a link to the thread, and informing him a lively discussion was taking place amongst the very people, that he would like to infiltrate and to please join in.

His telephone number and his email address is posted to that thread, as well as a post from me, stating that yes, of course I invited Mr. Sunstein to join in.

Which reminds me, I still have to get around to inviting the Pope, the Queen of England and Baron Rothschild to my All Roads Lead to Rome thread.

I should get on that huh?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


i certainly agree with you, and if you felt that i was labelling the ATS crowd at large based on the few members that have made me facepalm, i can assure you i didnt intend it that way

ive been lurking for a few years, i know there is a lot of good information to be found here, and good people behind a lot of the research

however im sure you can understand, reading a conspiracy and personally uncovering it are two different things, and while it's difficult to promote an atmosphere of learning while those who are quick to anger at alternative knowledge-seeking, it's also difficult to promote this atmosphere when such alternatives happen to be based on the belief that an alien race has penetrated our government and are currently working on controlling the masses

however that discussion is for another time

what i really meant to convey was how i dont feel its fair that i should now be considered big brother because, being a skeptic, i denounce such insane theories(within the ToS) and propose my own, very realistic, very sane theories

i dont feel that because the theories i have thought of could be plausible and could happen to a neighbor near you(unlike being abducted by a cult and transformed into a reptilian overlord) i should be called blasphemer

not that i blame you, the infiltration idea is a very real possibility, but like the tactics many ATSers claim the government use, just by stimulating this idea they feel they need protection from this, and now i feel that it will be much harder for a new person to be accepted. one slip up, a newbie calling a 'seasoned ATSers' post ludicrous could be all it takes for said person to be banished to the graveyard in the minds of the pre-Arizona crisis ATS'ian

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


S & F for an EXCELLENT post! I think I may have been guilty for some of the "infractions" the OP has mentioned at one time or another I guess sometimes in wanting to believe so badly it can have an effect on a persons sound judgment leaving them open for a host of things (gullibility/desperation/irrational) but hey...the first step in combating a problem is to recognize that a problem exists right?

So in my ever quest to learn about esoteric religion/sciences/beliefs, alternative history, and ancient technologies I continue to work on setting and applying "boundaries" on what information I choose to take in, and more importantly what to then do with said information (such as making a good determination whether I can in any way contribute or not to the discussion basically) and when each time I think that I got a good handle on things...I learn something else.


So with that said....before replying I asked myself whether or not I had anything to contribute to THIS THREAD and I came up with this:

With having such a large active global venue as ATS that is made up of cultures and nationalities from around the world...and if that in itself wasn't diverse enough, throw in the...with each person in varying degrees of "illumination" (to steal a term from TPTB lol) or different stages of "awakening"....well the result ends up being pretty much what has been described.

In the name of brevity (and the fact that my dinner just became ready lol) let me conclude with:

How about this....what if ATS were to dedicate a small portion of the site....say something like "Veterans Forum" or some other catchy yet meaningful phrase that describes those members whom have JOURNALISTIC PROVEN THEMSELVES (through somehow achieving a certain set amount of flags, stars, seniority, or a combination thereof) where ONLY THEY could author and post threads while the remaining membership could read/reply?

I had more input to share but since I am hungry as a mofo and just got home from work...I am drawing a blank But if any of my fellow ATS'ers know what I am trying to get across can elaborate, then please do. Thanks

NT

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by DeenUS
i would just like to say that while i do dismiss many conspiracy theories, i do NOT dismiss them just because they are conspiracy theorists

i believe myself to be a true skeptic

im skeptic of the government and 'official story', sure, but that doesnt mean im ready to subscribe to the fact that half the world has been visited by aliens, are trained assassins by the government through use of MKUltra and are reptilian aliens from some off the wall planet-asteroid.

there are a lot of times i would REALLY like to violate the TOS simply because some of the ideas posted on here are COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS and nobody sane would think of those kind of things

what i dont understand is why every conspiracy has to be something invented in fantasy land, instead of a plausible, even probable(!) theory.

i noticed that in this very forum there is a topic pertaining to 10 conspiracy theories

the fact that people will now use these conspiracy theories to validate their reasoning for believing the government are all aliens using earth bound sociology to mind control people from birth is ludicrous! where in the world do ANY of those conspiracy theories go out of this world?

the conspiracy theories listed there are TRUE conspiracies, and they are not nearly as whacky as what seems to be most of the stuff posted on here




id like to note i am NOT big brother, im a long time ATS lurker who, while i did come out to post on the JLL thing, is simply trying to continue to fight the good fight, while still staying grounded.

You raise a lot of interesting points when it comes to the more imaginative theories that some members like to write about and discuss.

However, that's a small percentage of members, and while I myself often see no validity in many of the things discussed here on ATS as I pointed out with some examples in the Opening Post, I wouldn't typify the site or conspiracy theorists in general with those extreme examples of hard to substantiate alternative beliefs.

Nor would I dwell on to me what is a negative act of disparaging people simply for having such beliefs.

I sometimes read some of the Gray Area threads where people make outrageous claims and present some wild theories that they can't substantiate and to be honest, it's hard to tell if the people posting them sometimes, even believe it themselves. Kids goofing around, attention seekers, and budding story tellers, sometimes show up on the site, as well as obviously the occassional poster with some apparent potential serious mental problems. Even then though because of the one dimensional anonymous nature of the Internet you never know if someone is joking about those things too.

One thing is for certain, there are a number of posters who like to goof on the people who put forth these theories, and focus to such an extent on doing that, they fail to in many cases, even notice, read or take part in the highly researched, well written and presented theories some people put forward on the site.

So personally I think it's a pity that people end up seeing conspiracy theorists in that light, because the truth is conspiracies have always driven our world.

Dismissing them out of hand, or throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak, by painting a broad brush like that really is only a disservice to the person doing that.

The site is a treasure trove of some incredible information, in many cases, born of serious research and investigation.

Yeah you have to weed through a lot of questionable stuff, but hey, if you are on a quest for knowledge it's well worth the effort.

I have been studying history, a history full of conspiracies and conspiracies my whole life. I personally think there is a real difference from the true conspiracy theorist who is much like a police detective or investigator dilligently tracking down leads and information, and the info-tainment junky.

That's just me though.

ATS is pretty much what you make of it, lots of serious well researched discussions taking place, on some very relevant conspiracies, alternative news, religious discussions, science discussions, etc all take place here.

So a little something for everyone.

Anyway, welcome aboard, glad to see you posting, and hopefully you can find some topics that challenge your skeptical mind, which hopefully is a fair and open one, though I don't feel personally it's fair to label the site, or the members based on the polar extremes of particular genres within the conspiracy world.

In fact I think there is a real danger in portraying the respectable conspiracy theory community in that stereotypical way, because that's exactly how the politicians will sell it, to pass laws to regulate it.

Everyone loses then, skeptics and theorists alike.

Thanks for posting.

I have always seen ATS as my "imagination's playground" where I can envision and entertain inspiration and new perspectives, much like a "Holodeck." Everyone has to have hobbies and interests. ATS is a place where people can converse anything they wish, without ridicule, for mutual advancement.

We must learn that "visualization" is a powerful aspect of human nature; it can be dangerous if used unwisely.

Even now, intentions of the heart "move" public perspective and make affects which actualize. A new era of how our actions, words, emotes, body language, and ideologies is being made manifest; we must learn this important step and not fail.

Being passive-aggressive is not the way, but neither is "turning the other cheek," but instead, use only mutually honest conversation, earnestly, in context and in content.

IDIC -- Infinite Diversity Infinite Combination

reply to post by trekwebmaster

Is "Sunstein's theory" assumption applicable to the entire population of North America? This theory says: "people are prone to believe in and investigate conspiracies become more or less 'isolated' on sites like ATS and end-up developing opinions and views by over-reliance on too few sources of information?

Well, let me stop here and address this first particular; the statistics just don't add up.

Let's see, how many people belong to ATS? What are the odds of a person belonging to ATS and a person belonging to the total US population?

Sunstein's theory dealt more or less with examples of specific topics like 9-11, Waco, and Ruby Ridge that are often discussed in militia as well as conspiracy circles.

His theory did not revolve around ATS, but revolved around Internet Sites where the Official Stories on key events often discussed in conspiracy circles are discussed.

He called for Cognitive Infiltration of these sites, and Government Agents to post the Official Story and substantiating background for the official story, to counter and balance conspiracy and alternative views to Official Stories.

Sunstein seemed to focus on the belief that fringe elements who discuss certain conspiracies, have a higher probablity of joining a militia, or carrying out a violent act against the government, or otherwise becoming a less that law abiding citizen, example refusal to pay income taxes or follow other codes as a result.

Sunstein believes if left unchecked people suffering from crippled epistomology who become isolated through alternative views, and become overly reliant on alternative services that provide them represent an enhanced inherent risk to the government and society, a potential loss of government revenue, and a potential source of additional government revenue, if fines are imposed on people who put forth alternative theories that slander government officials or public personalities who can't substantiate these statements and accusations.

Sunsteins theories are specific to a certain type of individual, it has absolutely nothing to do with the odds of someone being that type of individual, rather that such individuals and alternative outlets exist.

Thanks.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


you have to think though, it does appear that these types of 'indiivuals' are becoming much more prevalent

with alternative thinking coming to an all time high in this age, and history proving that it leads to revolutions (think the enlightenment era), why wouldn't he want to counterbalance it?

i agree though that the government has the tendency to take things too far, and this wouldn't end at simply keeping the playing grounds fair and offering another opinion..

i believe what he's trying to do would be fine if it wasn't him trying to do it, and if it wasn't as extreme

we should be allowed to support the officially theory just as much as we should be allowed to support alternative theories, keeping the balance could be integral in preventing things very much like the loughner case


i know, i know, this is exactly the argument they would be going for, but hear me out!

they wouldn't be wrong in arguing this, if the government weren't as messed up as they are and didn't take things to such extremes that it gets completely out of hand


im not for the 'infiltration' for that reason, but i do believe a balance should be achieved.

reply to post by DeenUS


I have absolutely nothing against anyone sharing their honest opinons.

I prefer they do it within the terms of service of the site, designed at maintaining a cordial and respectful polite atmosphere of civility.

Those who subscribe to the Official Stories have as much right to share their opinions and reasoning as anyone else.

To deny them that, would be in fact censoring them, which I am against.

What I am also against though is deriding someone because they believe something different than you, which ever side of the coin that might be on.

What I am also against is Sunstein's desire to fine people for slander based on voicing an opinion or theory on the Internet if they are unable to meet the Court of Law threshold of beyond a reasonable doubt evidence.

In a world where even Federal Judges find themselves frustrated over what can't be discussed openly in court cases where government has evoked National Security from allowing all the evidence at a trial to be discussed or even known by the Judge or the Jury, the notion that a high standard of evidence could even be obtained pertaining to what is reasonably asserted in some conspiracy circles is as foolish as imagining the U.S. could pay off it's 14 Trillion Dollar National Debt with only 2.9 trillion dollars of minted currency in actual circulation.

Many of the official stories couldn't even be substantiated, because such systems make no sense, and aren't credible.

So how could counter theories be substantiated in many cases, where the conspiracy being discussed is one of smoke and mirrors to begin with?

It can't.

I am against censorship, I no more want to see the person who loves the Baby Jesus, salutes the Flag when it's run up the poll, drives a Chevrolet, and lives for Mom's apple pie while watching a baseball game, than I am the person who thinks the world is secretly ruled by a kabal of satanists, who themselves are being ruled over by space aliens, who never leaves their house because they are sure they are being followed, and everyone they meet in person works for the CIA.

Both should have a right to voice their opinions, freely and openly without prejudice and or scorn, and you should have the right to decide who's opinion and information and evidence you find credible to you.

People who want to advocate violence I frown upon, but the truth is if you want to argue for continueing the war in Afghanistan you are advocating violence.

Funny when it's for the government they don't mind huh?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


nobody wants to blame whos in charge, they dont want to think that their society has submitted their wills to somebody corrupt. and so they turn their head, or support them. places like ATS are a bastion for those who want to know the truth about it all.

unfortunately ATS is also an aegis for those who want to deny everything the government does simply because they need to feel that everything is a conspiracy

hey, nothing wrong with that, im anti-censorship to a degree as well

however, i feel that if we were in a world without censorship the entire world would be very unstable and so would culture, social revolution would occur so often that the average person simply WOULD NOT be able to handle it

one could argue that it's been done in the past, societies have survived by being completely honest

those societies weren't nearly as technologically or culturally as advanced as we are now

theres no way to erase the knowledge we have, even if we did dumb things down and went back to basics, there will always be secrets and there will always be censorship because it is necessary

again though that begs the question : how much?

and i feel the government again, takes it too far, to the point where its only to benefit them, not to protect culture itself!




edit: i also wanted to mention, doesn't the way things are turning to work out remind you a bit like nazi germany?
they followed blindly because the society they lived in pressured them too. if censorship was permitted to the degree the government wants it to be, it WILL be nazi germany once again. i feel the only thing keeping us from becoming like that are things like the internet, where free thinkers and even delusional conspiracy theorists can speak freely under the constitution without worry of being prosecuted for their actions

however, and this is where many people fail in their reasoning, censorship is very much a necessity with the way todays society works

its all about balance though baby

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Ah, yes. I do recall that, now that you mention it. I did not go back and re-read your thread. I am glad my comment gave you an opportunity to once again show the ATS community that you have been fair and above board in your dealings and in attempting to call down the folks from their Ivory Towers to interact with the little people who have traded their sovereign personal power away to these folks.

I guess we got their answer.

Then...we all are Cognitive Infiltrators. We all our positing our own opinions on the subject, each loyal to his or her self. It will be easy to spot the ones who mirror each other- all this demands is a greater awareness on who is commenting on what, which I thank you for, because at times this is sort of overlooked. I am a new member, but I've been on this site for years now, have seen its low intelligence period, and I think it is going to reach its Apex soon as people begin to realize not everything centers around UFOs. There is a LOT of # going on in the world, and we just have to learn to discern whats the good #, and whats the bad(disinfo) #. Sometimes all the bad # clogs your # meter, and you got to clean it out by listening to some good classical music, reading a good book, and getting out in nature and process some of that info subconsciously. I agree with you though on one point 100%- a lot more people are going to be coming to ATS because of the # that just happened. And thats a good thing, because reading any of these topics will wake them up. So lets wake the world up peoples!!

Originally posted by Alethea
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Ah, yes. I do recall that, now that you mention it. I did not go back and re-read your thread. I am glad my comment gave you an opportunity to once again show the ATS community that you have been fair and above board in your dealings and in attempting to call down the folks from their Ivory Towers to interact with the little people who have traded their sovereign personal power away to these folks.

I guess we got their answer.

Thanks Alethea, in truth I try real hard to be fair in my discussions and theories, and I am truly not the paranoid conspiracy theorist, when you consider I tend to focus on the world's most powerful people and institutions and do make the effort to personally include them in the disucssions.

To date none of the principle players my conspiracies discuss who have been invited have chosen to take part, but I do actually believe that it remains a possibility that they will.

I remain the optimist on that account.

Thanks.

reply to post by DeenUS

body wants to blame whos in charge, they dont want to think that their society has submitted their wills to somebody corrupt. and so they turn their head, or support them. places like ATS are a bastion for those who want to know the truth about it all.

This is the sites powerful alure and draw.

No doubt about that. It's become increasingly popular as times have grown increasingly challenging and uncertain.

unfortunately ATS is also an aegis for those who want to deny everything the government does simply because they need to feel that everything is a conspiracy

Everything pretty much is a conspiracy, in my signature thread All Roads Lead to Rome, which now is about twice the volume of Tolstoy's War and Peace and growing daily, is chalked full of research that pretty much not just displays but proves to a very large extent that premise.

While yes the government does provide some basic services that are beneficial to the people, it is only because it is mutually beneficial to itself, commerce, industry, it's perpetuation and expansion as an enterprise, and a control mechanism, to maintain a status quo that best serves only a fraction of 1% of the population of the planet.

It's a deceptive system built on lies and dogmas that exists simply for it's own posterity power and control, that in large part succeeds because those self serving acts that also benefit the citizens, endear the citizens to the lies and dogmas that romanticize it as a whole.

We could do better and in fact would, if it weren't for the fact that it works tirelessly at convincing people this is as good as it gets, as good as it's ever been, and better than anything else out there.

however, i feel that if we were in a world without censorship the entire world would be very unstable and so would culture, social revolution would occur so often that the average person simply WOULD NOT be able to handle it

The entire world is unstable, hundreds of millions of people have died in violent wars in the last hundred years, and there is an excellent chance that someone somewhere is dying right now as a result of state sponsored violence.

Hundreds of millions of more have died of hunger and abject poverty where living in unsanitary conditions has caused them to succumb to diseases and maladies we have long figured out how to overcome, provided a certain standard in living conditions have been met. Most of these people live in nations, third world nations that have been robbed of their resources, and natural wealth by a handful of dominant developed first world nations or their corporate enterprises.

Chances are in fact that even as we converse someone is needlessly drawing their last breath and expiring from hunger or some simple medical condition that a few pennies worth of medicine and sanitary living conditions could have prevented or cured.

While yes some places are more stable than others, those who are more stable tend to have achieved that through actions that have left others far less stable.

It's a cruel world, and when people stop making silly excuses for it based on societal constucts and institutionalized dogmas, is when it will change for the better.

Fear of the unknown is all you are basically saying, go with the devil you know, don't risk the angel you have yet to spend an afternoon with.

The belief that the average person can't be trusted to make sound decisions that would equate to harmony if left to their own devices is a faulty one fraught with failure to consider such pertinent things, as it was not the government in this case that protected the people under attack, but the very people under attack, in fact an over reliance on government to provide us security is a dangerous and foolish proposition.

edit: i also wanted to mention, doesn't the way things are turning to work out remind you a bit like nazi germany?

We are very similiar to early Nazi Germany and taking on more aspects on a daily basis.

however, and this is where many people fail in their reasoning, censorship is very much a necessity with the way todays society works

Society doesn't work under such dysfunctional methods except for those doing the censoring.

Look around, and be honest with yourself about the state of affairs without the excuses for it.

We live under a thought robbing and quality of life robbing system of free range slavery that primarily rewards the corporations and the states, at the expense of everyone else.

That's what is being censored from you, and frankly you have a right to know. There is nothing wrong with being a slave if that is what you honestly wish to be, but every person should have the right to know there true status and where they stand in the world.

It would be foolish to think with the present conditions that a massive societal upheaval is not far off, and the truth is that could and would only occur based on the failure of the people who invented and developed our present system, and go to the insane extremes that they do to perpetuate it for their own posterity and control.

I can't make excuses for it, nor will I offer any, as that would only be to that corrupt systems benefit and it's very few principles, and not mine or anyone I love or care about, and I love and care about basically everyone and everything.

Thanks for posting.

Originally posted by wantstoknowmore
Then...we all are Cognitive Infiltrators. We all our positing our own opinions on the subject, each loyal to his or her self. It will be easy to spot the ones who mirror each other- all this demands is a greater awareness on who is commenting on what, which I thank you for, because at times this is sort of overlooked. I am a new member, but I've been on this site for years now, have seen its low intelligence period, and I think it is going to reach its Apex soon as people begin to realize not everything centers around UFOs. There is a LOT of # going on in the world, and we just have to learn to discern whats the good #, and whats the bad(disinfo) #. Sometimes all the bad # clogs your # meter, and you got to clean it out by listening to some good classical music, reading a good book, and getting out in nature and process some of that info subconsciously. I agree with you though on one point 100%- a lot more people are going to be coming to ATS because of the # that just happened. And thats a good thing, because reading any of these topics will wake them up. So lets wake the world up peoples!!

"World War III will be a guerilla information war, with no division
between military and civilian participation." Marshall McLuhan

Marshall McLuhan was a brilliant Canadian Communications Expert and philospher who consulted every one from the Vatican to the U.S. Government on communications.

That prediction was made before the advent of the Internet and indeed McLuhan himself died years ago before the Internet became what it is today.

While many people sneer at the notion, the Internet is a key battle ground for hearts and minds and the support of a wide variety of causes. Savy nations like Israel who have an Israeli Internet Defense Force don't have one for mere kicks. The volunteers who join, all realize that there is a stategic importance to promoting positive stories about Israel, and thwarting negative ones to the largest extent possible. They know that goodwill is central to their survival as a nation, and that the Internet is a viable and important front in the quest to shape public perception.

Members can log on to a Website, that lists the topics and discussion of the most importance based on priority, get background and posting materials to promote and use in discussions, and coordinate with other members of the force there times and sites to visit so they can be mutually supportive of one another's efforts to bolster the appearance that what they are saying is credible and valid and others think like they do too.

This is in essence how organized Cognitive Infiltration works, key select topics, key select talking points, key selects canned bits of information to disseminate.

You are correct though that yes, lone guerillas can infiltrate too, I consider myself to be one of the most formidible and known, and post with a sense of purpose and conviction, with the belief that our collective futures are at stake as it is we who inhabit the world, and I have a responsibility to share what I know and believe and my thoughts and opinions and do it often and on the important topics I think are most central to the challenges we all face.

Ultimately the Internet will play a huge factor in the transformation of our world, which is why it's so important to governments and institutions to promote their goals and see that they are popular with the people.

Great post, thanks for sharing and enjoy ATS!

i agree, i rely on ats to much for my ufo, sasquatch, reptilian and mothman news.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
No, the truth is that the Government through it’s controversial information czar, former University of Chicago and Harvard Law Professor Cass Sunstein who has for at least a year now been pushing for what he refers to as ‘Cognitive Infiltration’ of conspiracy oriented Web Sites, to counter the claims by people he theorizes suffer from ‘crippled epistemology’ might soon be infiltrating the site.

suSTEIN. guy is chozen. we are for lots of trouble when the xionists are trying to steal our liberties. they 'lead' a very 'do as i say not as i do' lifestyle of laws.

i hope he is reading this, cause just that name alone, in a position as [perceived] 'powerful' as that, means us 'goyam' are in for trouble.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by DeenUS

 

body wants to blame whos in charge, they dont want to think that their society has submitted their wills to somebody corrupt. and so they turn their head, or support them. places like ATS are a bastion for those who want to know the truth about it all.

This is the sites powerful alure and draw.

No doubt about that. It's become increasingly popular as times have grown increasingly challenging and uncertain.

unfortunately ATS is also an aegis for those who want to deny everything the government does simply because they need to feel that everything is a conspiracy

Everything pretty much is a conspiracy, in my signature thread All Roads Lead to Rome, which now is about twice the volume of Tolstoy's War and Peace and growing daily, is chalked full of research that pretty much not just displays but proves to a very large extent that premise.

While yes the government does provide some basic services that are beneficial to the people, it is only because it is mutually beneficial to itself, commerce, industry, it's perpetuation and expansion as an enterprise, and a control mechanism, to maintain a status quo that best serves only a fraction of 1% of the population of the planet.

It's a deceptive system built on lies and dogmas that exists simply for it's own posterity power and control, that in large part succeeds because those self serving acts that also benefit the citizens, endear the citizens to the lies and dogmas that romanticize it as a whole.

We could do better and in fact would, if it weren't for the fact that it works tirelessly at convincing people this is as good as it gets, as good as it's ever been, and better than anything else out there.

however, i feel that if we were in a world without censorship the entire world would be very unstable and so would culture, social revolution would occur so often that the average person simply WOULD NOT be able to handle it

The entire world is unstable, hundreds of millions of people have died in violent wars in the last hundred years, and there is an excellent chance that someone somewhere is dying right now as a result of state sponsored violence.

Hundreds of millions of more have died of hunger and abject poverty where living in unsanitary conditions has caused them to succumb to diseases and maladies we have long figured out how to overcome, provided a certain standard in living conditions have been met. Most of these people live in nations, third world nations that have been robbed of their resources, and natural wealth by a handful of dominant developed first world nations or their corporate enterprises.

Chances are in fact that even as we converse someone is needlessly drawing their last breath and expiring from hunger or some simple medical condition that a few pennies worth of medicine and sanitary living conditions could have prevented or cured.

While yes some places are more stable than others, those who are more stable tend to have achieved that through actions that have left others far less stable.

It's a cruel world, and when people stop making silly excuses for it based on societal constucts and institutionalized dogmas, is when it will change for the better.

Fear of the unknown is all you are basically saying, go with the devil you know, don't risk the angel you have yet to spend an afternoon with.

The belief that the average person can't be trusted to make sound decisions that would equate to harmony if left to their own devices is a faulty one fraught with failure to consider such pertinent things, as it was not the government in this case that protected the people under attack, but the very people under attack, in fact an over reliance on government to provide us security is a dangerous and foolish proposition.

edit: i also wanted to mention, doesn't the way things are turning to work out remind you a bit like nazi germany?

We are very similiar to early Nazi Germany and taking on more aspects on a daily basis.

however, and this is where many people fail in their reasoning, censorship is very much a necessity with the way todays society works

Society doesn't work under such dysfunctional methods except for those doing the censoring.

Look around, and be honest with yourself about the state of affairs without the excuses for it.

We live under a thought robbing and quality of life robbing system of free range slavery that primarily rewards the corporations and the states, at the expense of everyone else.

That's what is being censored from you, and frankly you have a right to know. There is nothing wrong with being a slave if that is what you honestly wish to be, but every person should have the right to know there true status and where they stand in the world.

It would be foolish to think with the present conditions that a massive societal upheaval is not far off, and the truth is that could and would only occur based on the failure of the people who invented and developed our present system, and go to the insane extremes that they do to perpetuate it for their own posterity and control.

I can't make excuses for it, nor will I offer any, as that would only be to that corrupt systems benefit and it's very few principles, and not mine or anyone I love or care about, and I love and care about basically everyone and everything.

Thanks for posting.

unfortunately i don't know how to quote in segments so this will be pretty poorly organized and i apologize ahead of time.

to say that a form of government is not needed is almost completely ridiculous, even the most basic of animals with their simplistic thought structure need a form of government and caste system. it's the way we are.

your very intelligence that you display in your posts reveal your need for substantial structure. you may argue that we can all be left to our own devices to fend for ourselves, but the fact is in this day and age the people simply do NOT have the know how, and if they were turned to the world without a structure to lead them, they would quite frankly die out. even if they were not to die out, the people would amongst themself form factions and their own form of government, not because they want to, but because it is quite frankly a necessity.

even the neanderthals had a form of government, even if it was simple.


to be completely honest, this IS as good as it gets on terms of what is achievable at this point. a full overthrow of the government as we know it would not give rise to a new, fair regime ran by the people, for the people, as they would simply succumb to human nature and be a repeat.

the world isnt perfect, the world doesnt even have the ability to be perfected. even if the stars aligned and everything you mentioned happened, people would not be able to live without the structure, comfort, and support the government provides.

i agree the government we have is not ideal whatsoever, but it is the only government we have and it provides our needs, which is sad because we are sacrificing freedoms. thus is human nature, it happens to every society and will continue to happen to every society.

humans build themselves up, they break themself down

this is called change.



do you believe that the people, if left to their own devices and having full access to the technology of today, all of the food stores we have, all of the medicine we have that been manufactured as a result of rigid structure, would be able to handle it appropriately and work toward a better tomorrow?

something everybody knows, and if they don't they should : if something is good there's something equally bad out there

this applies to nearly everything and you mention it in your post.

again, i pose the question

do you truly believe that if the structure we have in place were to be destroyed and all resources open to who would take them, that it would be distributed evenly amongst the people of the world to work towards harmony? i dont think so.

personally i think the people would initially be shocked, and off the bat begin the heinous acts of murdering their leaders who kept so many lies from them, without a trial. that in itself goes against the very laws this 'fair' nation was supposed to abide to.



also i would like to apologize if it seems like the points im trying to get at in fact lead to no true conclusion, my attention is very easily diverted and after writing for so long i seem to lose myself and can't stay on track long enough to conclude.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

You posted, "While conspiracy theorists are often derided and teased about being paranoid, our Congress People and Judges might soon be the most paranoid people in town as a result of this."

Read your brilliant post and have to comment on this part of it. I made this assertion just today, which leads me to the conclusion that this 'event', whether orchestrated or the act of a truly mentally ill person, will be the launching pad for a type of tyranny that has never been possible until now due to the technologies available. News media is already implying that this is what is to come! Choosing your words carefully will not necessarily keep anyone on conspiracy sites, or on other forums, from being labeled as someone who 'thinks' like the shooter, who in the words of the media is suffering from 'paranoid delusions' about 'government mind control', and/or a 'mental illness', as they said today on CNN and FOX News. Suggestions floating around in the media are that laws exist to bring someone in who exhibits these signs for a 'mental evaluation' in order to check them out, to protect the public, and public officials, i.e, congress men and women, judges, etc.. Where else can they find evidence to do this but on 'conspiracy' websites, in emails, cell phone records, etc., etc.! Clever.

Originally posted by 11PB11
As a new member but having been reading through the site for the last few years I agree with you wholeheartedly with everything said. I think in the end its comes down to, just as you stated, having evidence and just being as logical and rational as you can about everything that is presented. I have my beliefs but still read as much as I can because there is so much disinformation. It all comes down to just being logical and using common sense and open minded. If everyone did that their threads wouldn't become dominated by those that wish to dominate it and steer the topic to their agenda.

after reading your post here I totaly get what the OP is saying,Thankyou for your open and honest post.....I totaly get the meaning after reading this post...wow

Originally posted by exactmad
In other words ATS just split in two groups new members and old members before to the Loughner attraction but be caution of old members selling their accounts to new member's then having a old new member

GOOD POINT!

Perhaps WE ALL need to stop for a minute and think about all this

Some genuine members may see “offers” to “buy their names” in an attempt by an infiltrator to “cloak” their wolf-skins in a wool coat.

We hear about and see what Govt can and can not (or will not) do about gun control, censorship, media control, new legislation and other “reactionary” efforts, etc. etc.

As someone who was a teenager in the 60’s, I have seen many things happen over time.

Are today’s tragedies and reactions to those really as bad as we think!

The 1960s were marked by several notable assassinations:
Some were:
• June 12, 1963 – Medgar Evers, an NAACP field secretary. Assassinated by a member of the Ku Klux Klan in Jackson, Mississippi.
• November 2, 1963 – Ngo Dinh Diem, President of Vietnam, along with his brother and chief political adviser, Ngo Dinh Nhu. Assassinated by Duong Hieu Nghia and Nguyen Van Nhung in the back of an armoured personnel carrier.
• November 22, 1963 – John F. Kennedy, President of the United States. The accused was Lee Harvey Oswald, according to the 1964 report issued by the Warren Commission, in his car during a parade in Dallas, Texas from gunshot wound. See JFK assassination for more details.
• February 21, 1965 – Malcolm X. Assassinated by members of the Nation of Islam in New York City. There is a dispute about which members killed Malcolm X.
• September 6, 1966 – Hendrik Verwoerd, Prime Minister of South Africa and architect of apartheid was stabbed to death by Dimitri Tsafendas, a parliamentary messenger. He survived a previous attempt on his life in 1960.
• August 25, 1967 – George Lincoln Rockwell, leader of the American Nazi Party. Assassinated by John Patler in Arlington, Virginia.
• April 4, 1968 – Martin Luther King, Jr., civil rights leader. Assassinated by James Earl Ray in Memphis, Tennessee.
• June 5, 1968 – Robert F. Kennedy, United States Senator. Assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan in Los Angeles, California, taking California in the presidential national primaries.

AND GUESS WHAT ELSE …. There was no internet or cable TV or cell phones !!!!

All the police had were radios in their squad cars .. if they left the car they were on their own .. no belt radios .. and at best they had a snubbed-nose 38!

At best, all YOU had was a black and white TV with only a few channels (all local), an AM radio, maybe an FM radio (and NOT even stereo!), one or two local newspapers, and maybe a bowling alley or pool hall or bar or hamburger joint with many “scholarly” inhabitants to give you all the news and theories you would ever need!

NOW, with all the “action” in the 60’s, why is all this still happening today?

Where did the “perpetrators” way back then get their “inspirations” from?

How did the Govt “infiltrate” the “hate groups” of the day?

Did “infiltration” do any good against the “next one”?

How did any “new laws” back then stop what’s happening today?

Did ANY Govt actions in the 60’s prevent ANY future violent assassinations or attempts?

[color=Cyan]Maybe we let these “infiltrations” happen because it will not prevent the next violent act anyway!

We need to heed Proto’s warnings however, because this new breed of “spy infiltrators” (the “Cass Sunsteiners”) may ultimately cause many false accusations and lots of hysterical reactions and maybe a few false flags along the way too.

What we may be witnessing here is a classic “Roman-style” infiltration effort complete with Govt paid contractors doing the “work” as well as volunteers along for the ride and glory!

We may see threads started by (multiple) infiltrators for “baiting” purposes presented in classic “ambush” style.

They will use “scapegoating” technics as well as the standard “accuse somebody else of what they are already guilty of” trick.

And recent comments from our own politicians don’t help either:

Hillary comment May 2008:

"We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California," Clinton told the editorial board of a South Dakota newspaper. " I don't understand it," Clinton added, alluding to the calls for her to quit.
Clinton made the statement after pointing out that her husband didn't lock up the nomination until June of 1992, trying to point out that, by past history, it's not late in the campaign.

Obama comment June 2008:

what Barack Obama said he would do to counter Republican attacks “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”

We may also see a wave of “new” volunteer members who will fight the infiltrators.

We could see infiltrators who may actually become genuine members and contributors as they “see the light” during discussions. After all, once a turncoat always a turncoat! We could see them turn on each other like rabid dogs!

Interesting times ahead as we shall see “what type of “chosen” people” are behind the “infiltrations”!

Do you guys really think this site is important enough for such concern? Sadly nobody cares, or takes it seriously.