For the ppl that doubt ufo's...

reply to post by freedish


I am well aware space is infinitely expanding, but I didn't say it mattered how advanced they are. I said it was ignorant to think we are the most advanced when we have no ET civilization to compare our advancements in technology to. We only have our own past to base our advancements off of.

@ PoorFool:

"And for all we know, we might be the most advanced in the universe. Why not?"
Touche, that is a valid argument, except you bring up the fact that humans have only existed for a small fraction of the Earth's age, but Earth ITSELF has existed for not even half of the entire age of the universe. Why should we be the only planet to have developed and sustained intelligent life? I choose to stick with the Drake equation. It makes the most sense to me, but to each his own!

Originally posted by apodictic
Touche, that is a valid argument, except you bring up the fact that humans have only existed for a small fraction of the Earth's age, but Earth ITSELF has existed for not even half of the entire age of the universe. Why should we be the only planet to have developed and sustained intelligent life? I choose to stick with the Drake equation. It makes the most sense to me, but to each his own!

I said I am a believer that there has been/is/will be life elsewhere in the Universe. Just not that we have been visited by intelligent life. Too unlikely, it's just wishful thinking. Now if you can prove me wrong, I'll be the first to shït bricks.

reply to post by depmode101


Hi,

New to ATS and UFO forums.

Like you I have never been 'probed' (for want of a better expression) and have never encountered or seen anything that could be termed an unexplained phenomenom. I have no doubt that the universe is teeming with life whereever possible (although whether it is intelligent or not is another matter) but as the late great Carl Sagan wrote;-

"If we were randomly inserted into the universe, the chances that you would be on or near a planet would be less than one in a billion trillion trillion, worlds are precious".

So I think it extremely unlikely that we have been visited. The numbers are just to great.

I have read and viewed many books and articles about UFO's and one thing that has always puzzled me and perhaps someone here could throw light on the subject for me, is that we supposedly have all this suppression and cover up of info, yet the matter could easily be resolved by the other party(s).

That is to say any intelligent life form that has the capacity to cover the stunningly huge interstellar distances required to get to earth must be able to moniter and decode our commnications and I would suggest must know that many on ths planet would desire to meet and greet (so to speak). They must be aware that they have been (allegedly) seen, monitered and if true, had wrecked space vehicles and deceased crew recovered by us so instead of a few blinding lights at a truck driver on a back road in Kansas or a several thousand mile an hour buzz pass of a fighter aircraft, why do THEY not give us the definitive proof by ,say, a couple of them escorting the space shuttle down to a touch down or a hover for an hour over the superbowl or doing the classic 'The night the Earth stood still" and landing in the middle of New York.

Until such an event occurs, I will (reluctantly) remain a UFO sceptic......any intelligence that, as I stated earlier, can travel and overcome the distances required to get here would possess the technology to remain invisible to all our instruments (even we can do that with radar) and would not need headlights (okay i'm being facetious) to travel around the atmosphere.

Just my thoughts

reply to post by PoorFool


Oh, my misunderstanding then. I wasn't talking about us being visited. I have no proof or disproof so I'm in the middle of the fence on that one.

simple fact i belive in my own opinion is theres lot more planets older then earth and with other people years ahead of us..thats what i belive..and when i hear the people saying how speacial we are and we where put here on earth by god,and they cant accept the possibilty of other life out there or coming here..didn't even think or realize they where insulting there GOD as they made him out to be stupid when he made this huge galaxy and planets and didnt give them life...that be just wasteful if earth was the only one with life....and not to mention just the Human Ego.

and when i hear people say why would they come to earth..lol wow..hmmm i guesse those nasa astronauts wernt out there on the moon exploring and collectng data, but where having secret tea party with some martians up there(sarcastic)

Originally posted by dentarthurdent
So I think it extremely unlikely that we have been visited. The numbers are just to great.

Could be right but I don't think it's such a big thing. The only problem is travel, like we were talking about a bit further back. (if I got the right thread.) Take us for instance, we're using Kepler to spot all these possible planets, so if you assume a more advanced species somewhere else did the same, then further on sussed the travel problem, they'd then go around checking on all the best planets they'd found, and maybe find other life fairly quickly. Then more life somewhere else, then more, etc, etc.

The whole idea of the way I see it depends on two factors, and that's that a) more advanced species are actually out there, and b) they've solved the problem of travelling large distances. If those two things have happened then it doesn't seem hard to imagine at all that we've been visited.

You could then go further and say well how many different species are actually out there that are more advanced and can travel large distances? Then you get to the idea that there could be a lot of aliens or whatever you want to call them that have visited, and are still visiting us.

Not that I think that's the case at all, but I have no problem at all in accepting the idea any more.


Then you get to the final problem, which is answering the question of why they haven't revealed themselves to the public at large. Well if they are out there, and I've been thinking about this a decent bit....are we actually ready for that truth yet with the way things are? I'm really not sure we are. I know that some of us, maybe a lot of us are, but for others, maybe it'd send a lot of people over the edge, so things have to be disclosed in stages, which could be kind of what's happening now.

It also makes me think that maybe the governments are totally fine with people like us being open minded and accepting that maybe they're already here, because in a way, we could be a test group. They might be looking at us and thinking : well, these people are accepting it, they haven't flipped out, they truly believe they're already here, so if they can accept it, maybe the rest can? Maybe we should start slowly pushing this further until the whole population is at the stage that they can accept it? And for those that can't, maybe this group of people that's growing by the day will be able to help those others adapt to the reality of it.

Intervention theory could be plausible aswell...

reply to post by JoseChung


I still think the distances are so vast ( and by inference the statistical likelihood) as to reduce the possibility to almost zero.

However, I concede that an as yet discovered means of propulsion may make interstellar travel possible (I struggled through O-level maths, but spooky interaction at a distance in Quantum Mechanics seems a very intiguing possiblity of moving from a to b, anywhere, instantaneously, still a couple of centuries away for us humans though I would imagine).

I don't know about the logic of first contact though.....They would know that we know that they have been seen so why delay it futher and cause more division?

Yes it would be a big shock to the planet, but perhaps we have arrived at that point in our development when we need a more mature input. Goodness knows we are messing things up big time..... whilst I thought the original film of the day the earth stood still was better (cinemagraphically) I like the notion in the second one that planets capable of life are scarce and need to be husbanded (being an atheist I am getting really ticked off with all the diatribe from all the various religious factions in the world and then the New World Order freaks and governments in general and the whole arms and oil industries to name but a few.....so now would be an appropriate time for mankind to get a swift kick up the rear, so to speak....but then what do I know, it's almost midnight here in Vancouver and I am listening to a 1975 youtube recording of the Old Grey Whistle Test featuring Camel playing the Snow Goose, so perhaps I am the one out of step with the world..lol!)

There could be a universe made entirely out of bubblegum. Anything is possible, right?

I'm not saying you're wrong, my point is simply that we can only effectively move forward by dealing with what is known/proven.

That's how science (and, in fact, the world) works.

At this time, UFO's being E.T in nature is simply an unproven claim bolstered by lots of noise.

You may not like this answer, but unfortunately that's just how it is.

Originally posted by dentarthurdent
reply to post by JoseChung

 

However, I concede that an as yet discovered means of propulsion may make interstellar travel possible (I struggled through O-level maths, but spooky interaction at a distance in Quantum Mechanics seems a very intiguing possiblity of moving from a to b, anywhere, instantaneously, still a couple of centuries away for us humans though I would imagine).

Am with you on that with spooky interaction. I don't know much about the details of that type of science, but it could be a clue to something a lot bigger we'll discover further on, agreed.

Originally posted by dentarthurdent
Yes it would be a big shock to the planet, but perhaps we have arrived at that point in our development when we need a more mature input. Goodness knows we are messing things up big time..... whilst I thought the original film of the day the earth stood still was better (cinemagraphically) I like the notion in the second one that planets capable of life are scarce and need to be husbanded (being an atheist I am getting really ticked off with all the diatribe from all the various religious factions in the world and then the New World Order freaks and governments in general and the whole arms and oil industries to name but a few.....so now would be an appropriate time for mankind to get a swift kick up the rear, so to speak....

Agreed again, it seems like we could do with some help badly. It's one of the things that makes the idea of aliens so hard to fathom if they have already been contacted. I'd like to think that there's either a slower method of disclosure to make it easier for people and reduce shock, but it could be the case that governments and those in power have just become too addicted to that power and are holding off on disclosure, which would force the aliens to take matters into their own hands if they cared enough. Something I'd actually like to see if the governments are just being a bunch of idiots about the whole thing.

But yeah, at the same time I have to accept that maybe we just haven't contacted them or they're not even out there, and we're in serious trouble, because it doesn't look like those in power are going to get better any time soon with the way they're going.

Originally posted by SaosinEngaged
There could be a universe made entirely out of bubblegum. Anything is possible, right?

I'm not saying you're wrong, my point is simply that we can only effectively move forward by dealing with what is known/proven.

That's how science (and, in fact, the world) works.

I don't think it is really, I think that science can only move forwards effectively by being more open minded and developing imagination and intuition to search for those answers better. A lot of science people are too logic based, and maybe science only ever moves on when the people that are more open research and test out things in different ways to move it forwards. The world doesn't just work on what's known, people move it on in big leaps by using imagination and intuition despite the facts at the time, and I think that's also a big way in which science does the same.

reply to post by JoseChung


I'd be curious to know what you make of this youtube clip.....


www.youtube.com...


Seems like the man would like to say more doesn't it (and I don't think it could be argued that he is not an impeccable source)?

Originally posted by dentarthurdent
reply to post by JoseChung

 

I'd be curious to know what you make of this youtube clip.....


www.youtube.com...


Seems like the man would like to say more doesn't it (and I don't think it could be argued that he is not an impeccable source)?

Definitely. Kind of mind boggling to even think about what he knows. Will just hope that if he was right those protective layers don't have to stay there for much longer.

Originally posted by eyeoftruth
reply to post by freedish

Imagine where or how much more knowledge of the universe we'll have discovered in a million years. I say a million years because science shows many parts of the universe to be millions of years older than our particular galaxy.

good point

reply to post by apodictic


It is an intereting notion, however, studies of Mitochondrial DNA have, I think, pretty conclusively shown the genetic inheritance that all primates/chordates share There is more difference between a horse and a zebra than there is between us and a Chimpanzee and Neandertals are a natural part of the lineage that has resulted in our development.

reply to post by dentarthurdent


Have you seen this video?


What are your thoughts on it?

reply to post by apodictic


Well it makes for interesting viewing.

I didn't know much about this until you posted, however I am sceptical of the whole thing (particularly given Mr Pye's background as a Military Intelligence (that has to be an oxymoron) officer and fantasy writer,perhaps another L Ron Hubbard?). And I am always dubious when someone announces that "a scientist approached me".....but gives no names of those doing the research and does not provide for independant peer review.

Also (apart from the massive hurdle of two independently evolving beings having similiar enough DNA to be able to cross fertilise) we have the following almost unbelievable string of coincidences to overcome....


Intelligent beings evolved on other worlds

These intelligent beings evolved at a time which pre-dated mankind's evolution

These intelligent beings developed a theory of physics which, contrary to all indications derived from our own efforts, allows for intergalactic travel in a reasonable amount of time

These intelligent beings developed the technology capable of transporting themselves across space in accordance with these currently unknown laws of physics

Of all the planets in the Universe, these intelligent beings managed to locate Earth and visit the planet

These intelligent beings just happened to visit Earth at a time which coincided with mankind's brief existence on this planet

These intelligent beings interacted with the humans they found, who in turn recorded these encounters as religious experiences

These intelligent beings, for unknown reasons, desired to hybridise themselves with the humans they found

These intelligent beings found that our DNA and theirs were similar enough to allow for such a hybridisation

These intelligent beings were mostly unsuccessful in their attempts, leaving only a handful of deformed skulls as evidence of this failed project in the desolate regions of Mexico

These intelligent beings left no other currently known record of their time here

Lloyd Pye, a modern homo sapien who just so happens to already believe the above all transpired, is the amazingly fortunate owner of these skulls

Lloyd Pye is honest and unbiased in his attempts to properly identify the skulls

All the experts who have examined them and dismissed them as deformed (or cradle boarded) human skulls are in fact mistaken


I look forward to hearing the results of the 'definitive' DNA test that are awaiting to be done...

'Cos you never know. right?

reply to post by dentarthurdent


Where do you pull these things from...

reply to post by PoorFool


Don't know if it is directly relevant, but I am a huge fan of Bill Bryson's a "Short history of nearly everything" amongst other reading....

reply to post by dentarthurdent


True. But to me this makes sense:

Life originates on another planet
These beings evolve over millions (maybe billions?) of years. (Imagine where our advancements in science and physics would be in millions of years)
They eventually master interstellar travel by generating gravitational forcefields that bend space bringing two places closer together, kind of like how the sun's mass distorts space.
They visit our planet and find our primitive ancestors not yet evolved and still ape-like.
Finding that these beings have 46 chromosomes, and apes contained 48 chromosomes, they genetically manipulated our ancestors (for reasons unknown. We may just be some experiment) by fusing the 2nd and 3rd chromosomes.

This would explain the gap or "missing link" between Neanderthals and modern Homo Sapiens. Essentially, after millions of years of up-right walking creatures, and no sudden major changes in intelligence, our cerebral cortex TRIPLES in size in a couple thousand. What caused the sudden growth of intelligence? How is this possible? How do two chromosomes fuse?

I think our history goes much much deeper than we could ever imagine. It's a shot in the dark but who really knows? It's fun to think about

reply to post by apodictic


Obviously it would be very exciting, but that is a heck of a lot of 'what ifs' that need to be met don't you think?

Also, if I am not mistaken (and I only briefly viewed the material so forgive me if I am wrong) doesn't Mr Pye claim that the interventions started some 30,000 years ago (with the development of Cro-magnon man), so don't you think they (the intervenors) would have done whatever they wanted to do within that huge time frame (some 5 times the length of all recorded human history) and not still be messing around 900 years ago in Mexico (I note that there is no corresponding beliefs amongst the Olmec, Myan or Aztec cultures that such interactions took place).

To quote from wikipedia :-

"Pye claims that the human genetic array as it exists today is "only 150,000 to 200,000 years old". In fact, certain human genes such as those encoding histones are common to all eukaryotes and identical to many other primates' histone genes, and are more than 1.8 billion years old"

...which seems to refute much of what Pye says.

I also find difficult to accept the premise that because it cannot be A it must be B. Fundamental christians have this attitude when they say 'there is no such thing as evolution or an old earth, therefore our religious beliefs are correct" which completely ignores any of the other major religions creations beliefs or any other competing ideas.
So it goes with the skull, it may not be cradle boarding, but may be an as yet unexplored /undiscovered malady of mundane terrestial origins. So how about exploring those possibilities first before jumping to such amazing conclusions?

One would assume that if this 'breeding program' for want of a better expression had been going on for thousands of years there would be more evidence than a single skull, discovered under somewhat dubious conditions (by this I refer to the original story not Mr Pye being in possession of it, although that is an amazing coincidence don't you think?)

I think it more the case that this individual was a social outcast, turned aside by his group because of his abnormalites (which occured after birth) and left to fend for itself with perhaps a mate or mother (although have you noticed how there is no mention how such a huge head would be able to pass through the mothers birth canal without doing major damage to both infant and mother if it had developed as a 'normal' starchild child within the womb ? Curious don't you think?)

The problem we face with all early human history is the scant amount of fossil evidence that we have to go on, which means there are huge gaps in our knowledge....this quote from 'A short history of nearly everything':-

"Only about one bone in a billion, it is thought, ever becomes fossilzed. If that is so, it means the complete fossil legacy of all Americans alive today, that's 270 million people with 206 bones each, will only be about fifty bones,one quarter of a skeleton".

....and of course, those "fifty bones" would have to have the good fortune to be found as well.

I think, given time, more evidence will turn up to support the conventional wisdom of evolution.