America: Not A Christian Nation

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
reply to post by Condemned0625

 

I would hardly suggest Wikipedia being a valid source of reference?

If you think Wikipedia is entirely invalid, then all other sources must be as well. The possibility of false information lies within every source, not just Wikipedia.

Originally posted by torqpoc


Edit - I had to get this in also, you quote Barak Obama? Errmm surely you're jesting, right?

Barak Obama hasn't got the right to define anything, let alone comment.

I hated having to quote B.O., but he was correct and does have a right to define it and comment.

And I probably should have addressed the issue of christian majority in the O.P. Sure, by sheer numbers one could say America is predominantly christian but even with strong majority, one cannot label it a christian nation.

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
America was born to exemplify that devotion to the tenets of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture."

Unfortunately, your post doesn't specify the source of this quote. This is most assuredly not the reason that America was born and whoever made this claim was quite obviously just making things up. Essentially, it's a re-branding of the "America is a christian nation" argument.

Regardless, America does not magically become a christian nation simply because someone, living or dead, says so. There are source documents (Constitution) to refer to along with their author's clarification of them. None of them favor christianity.

Ok, so I am gonna go there. Saying this is a Christian nation because it's inhabitants predominately subscribe to Christianity, would be like saying this is a white nation because it's inhabitants are predominately white. Nether of these statements further any mission other than that of bigotry, and division. United We Stand, Divided We Fall. This is what is becoming the destruction of this country more than anything else. Total disrespect for our fellow man, and constant labeling, where no label is needed.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer



Oh really?

When President Harry Truman wrote to Pope Pius XII in 1947 that "This is a Christian nation.", he certainly did not mean that the United States has an official or legally-preferred religion or church. Nor did he mean to slight adherents of non-Christian religions. But he certainly did mean to recognize that this nation, its institutions and laws, was founded on Biblical principles basic to Christianity and to Judaism from which it flowed.

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Oh really?

When President Harry Truman wrote to Pope Pius XII in 1947 that "This is a Christian nation.", he certainly did not mean that the United States has an official or legally-preferred religion or church. Nor did he mean to slight adherents of non-Christian religions. But he certainly did mean to recognize that this nation, its institutions and laws, was founded on Biblical principles basic to Christianity and to Judaism from which it flowed.

No matter what Truman believed, the claim that " this nation, its institutions and laws, was founded on Biblical principles basic to Christianity and to Judaism from which it flowed" is patently false.

I challenge anybody to present the evidence that any of the nation's institutions or laws were founded on biblical principles.

Originally posted by Condemned0625
I've tried telling this to my christian fundamentalist dad and he still thinks this is a christian nation.

It should be easy to dispel.

Were America founded on Judeo-Christian principles, unruly children would be stoned to death, homosexuals would be immediately executed, those working on the Sabbath would be executed, those with any god other than YHWH would be prosecuted, etc.

Additionally, punishment would be required for such things as:

wearing clothes made of more than one fabric
having different crops in the same field
shaving or cutting your hair
having sex with a woman on her period

The death penalty is required for:

cursing your mother or father
cheating on your wife or husband requires the death of both
sleeping with your wife AND her mother requires all to be burned to death
being a psychic
a priest's daughter being a whore
anyone who curses or blasphemes God
dreaming anything that goes against God
anyone, even your own family, suggesting worshiping another god
the practice of any other religion

Where are the laws for these biblical crimes in this allegedly christian nation?

reply to post by Condemned0625


Dear Condemned0625,
Can we please actually stay on subject. I will restate for the third time now, the vast majority of European countries are Christian Nations based on the fact the majority religion is Christian.

This has nothing to do with numbers of atheists, or demographic of those. It is a very simple statement, and your links are not correct or in line with what I stated. I realise there are vast numbers of Atheists, what you are arguing is if the number of atheists is larger than the number of Christians (for the example) it is not a Christian Nation. Right? For the sake of the "label", that isn't right.

Regards,
T

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Dear Traditionaldrummer,
If you feel your president, or if it's not "your" then The President of the United States has the right to speak for all the people living in the US, on their behalf, about their religious choices and to voice his opinion as their own, then .. well I don't have much to say, sadly. Personally I like to speak for myself, not have some trumpted up politician saying rubbish. Anyway, on to the crux of what I was saying, and not what you were saying.

By definition Christian Nation is right. I hate to repeat myself, but majority and the rules of English make the statement correct. No emotion attached to the statement, no personal feeling or religious fervour on my part I may add. I was simply correcting a mistake in your use of the terminology which then becomes a much wider issue when people associate Nation with State.

I'm sorry if you don't agree, I won't continue to press the issue with you but as part of your OP statement I felt it should be pointed out that your title and then the wording in your post are not correct per rules of a language and the seperation of Nation and State.

Regards,
T

reply to post by recycled


Dear Recycled,
Why add an emotional response to the phrasing and use of terminology. I don't get it truly? Some of the responses in this thread are so off the mark and off topic it's a bit worrying.

Yes it is a Christian Nation.. it may also be a majority white caucasian Nation I am not sure and I simply can't be bothered to get the statistics. The use of a language and it's power to define things should never be used as a emotional weapon or to go off on tangents about the why and why nots about labelling something that it is.

It doesn't mean you're going to cause mass hysteria and force people to believe there is some manner of bigotry or racism involved. Political correctness has gone mad in the world, but the day you can't label something correctly will be the day the human race is on it's knees begging to know where it went wrong.

I'm shocked here, really shocked.

Regards,
T

reply to post by BigTimeCheater


While i will agree with you that religion (organized religion) is detrimental to society, a "cancer" as you put it, using "any means" to eradicate it is entirely the wrong approach. You go from replacing one forced system with another forced system, for something to have value you can not force it upon the people if you wish it to have a lasting and meaningful effect.

People need to wake up and think for themselves, we can't do it for them. But we sure as hell can keep the topic and conversation alive to encourage skepticism and reason.


On the subject of America: Not a Christian Nation, I'd like to know what it is that has compelled people recently to perpetuate this myth more than ever it seems. Is it simply the Tea Party trying to play into the majority of people in the country? Or is it some sort of cold-war era-ish type of creating a superiority over the middle east and Islam.


Side Note: I was thinking of making this exact thread recently so I'm a little excited to see another one made so recently

Originally posted by torqpoc
Dear Traditionaldrummer,
If you feel your president, or if it's not "your" then The President of the United States has the right to speak for all the people living in the US, on their behalf, about their religious choices and to voice his opinion as their own, then .. well I don't have much to say, sadly. Personally I like to speak for myself, not have some trumpted up politician saying rubbish. Anyway, on to the crux of what I was saying, and not what you were saying.

I imagine you're referring to the Obama quote. If so, he's not "speaking for all people" in the U.S., simply stating a quality of our system of government.

By definition Christian Nation is right. I hate to repeat myself, but majority and the rules of English make the statement correct. No emotion attached to the statement, no personal feeling or religious fervour on my part I may add. I was simply correcting a mistake in your use of the terminology which then becomes a much wider issue when people associate Nation with State.

How is the definition correct? Simply by majority? Someone else was apt to point out that though there are a majority of whites in the country we do not call ourselves a White Nation.

I'm sorry if you don't agree, I won't continue to press the issue with you but as part of your OP statement I felt it should be pointed out that your title and then the wording in your post are not correct per rules of a language and the seperation of Nation and State.

Regards,
T

How is it not correct? Please clarify. Also, explain to us how exactly this is a "Christian Nation" since that appears to be your assertion.

I'm sure I'll receive inevitable flack for posting a video from an atheist show, but the topic of the clip is writings of the founding fathers (Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, etc.) - [the show topic is, of course, that America is not a christian nation]

reply to post by torqpoc



Could you please be so kind as to point out my errors regarding choice of words?

reply to post by torqpoc


You are right on the topic of political correctness gone mad, no doubt about that there. But to try and say it's purely semantics and based purely off language that Christian majority = Christian Nation

That is downright wrong. If you wish to call it as it is, then call it as it is, a Christian Majority. You don't have to make the leap to Christian Nation, which would then imply the nation is in itself, Christian. It's baffling how there is even a need to label the country as a Christian Nation, even if only to state that Christianity is the majority. If it is simply stated that America is a Christian Nation because of the majority then there is no need to have this hammered home by repeated candidates and political figures (who most definitely do not mean it that way, what with invocations of a Christian God blessing and guiding America).

America was founded on neutrality and secularism, there is no need to purposefully draw a line between the country and say this is a Christian country and exclude all those who are not Christian, as if they were not a member of this nation. Just as there is no need to say "We are a white nation" and exclude all the people who are not Caucasian. In short, don't bring it up, no problem.

By the way: A pile of 6 red M&M's and 2 blue ones doesn't mean it's a pile of red M&M's

First Commandment: You will worship only one god

First Amendment: You can worship any god you want

reply to post by Stuffed


Dear Stuffed,
Thank you for the response. I would love to discuss the concept of language, set theory, majority and the use of a language to define something with you, however as I have already seen in this thread there is an overwhelming lack of emotional disconnection on the part of the Americans here that renders any attempt on my part futile.

I will simply repeat once more than there is a difference between Christian State, which is what the OP is stating that the United States of America is not (correct) and a Christian Nation. I will simply leave it at that and let your intellect and willingness to understand do the rest, or not. I am not going to continue making a point, correct as it is, when it's futile.

You should check the terminology for Nation, and look into the use of English (not American English) in the definition of majorities. One simple little example is that if there are 99 women in a room and 1 man, the group would be considered, for the sake of conjugation, to be masculine. It may not be right as per your views, but it is as per the language.

Edit - You state: If it is simply stated that America is a Christian Nation because of the majority then there is no need to have this hammered home by repeated candidates and political figures.
As I said above, the terminology is all I am discussing. You have an emotional hatred of a term because it is "being hammered home" for a political agenda, this leads me to conclude that you actually do realise i'm correct in the use of the term. Right?


Regards,
T

reply to post by recycled

Dear Recycled,
When asked so politely I will do so with pleasure. Your assumption that labelling something is wrong was what I was shocked with. Labelling, and it's use in todays world, maybe be wrong as per your views, it does not however mean that labelling is the same as stereotyping. Your comments would seem to be based on the hatred of stereotyping, I personally don't like stereotypes either, however to state that the US is a Christian Nation does not in any way follow on with the US is a white majority country full of bigots.

As I just pointed out above, I don't think any person in the thread residing in the US will even accept the appropriate label for the country in which you live. Hence my continuing to state that the US is a Christian Nation is causing a negative emotional response. That in itself is what I define as the world gone mad. If you cannot use a language and its rules to define something in fear of a negative emotional response, we may as well all stay at home in case we may offend someone.

Regards,
T

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Dear Tradtionaldrummer,
I will glady answer your questions:

The Obama quote is speaking for all of the people within the United States of America:
"One of the great strengths of the United States, is ... we have a very large Christian population -- we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. "
Barack Obama, April 2009

We is a grouping of a people, when used in conjunction with Nation, he is talking about everyone within the Nation, hence he is speaking for all of the Americans and stating outright that you, the American people, do not consider yourselves to be living within a Christian Nation. He is actually wrong and he is also rather egotistical in the belief he can and should speak for everyone living in the US.

Next point I have actually discussed and answered numerous times:
How is the definition correct? Simply by majority? Someone else was apt to point out that though there are a majority of whites in the country we do not call ourselves a White Nation.

Yes, simply by the use of religious majority. If the majority of the people who believe in a religion are of a specific religion, then that Nation can be defined, as per the use of the English language as a "XXX Nation". You could, if you so wished, call the US a majority white nation also. I wouldn't recommend it though since there seems to be an issue with the use Nation for the Americans.

Edit - Just to help clarify things, let us pick another country to define. Iran is a Muslim Nation. Would you argue the contrary and if so, why? It is also, for the record, an Islamist State.

Having read and reread your post numerous times, and all other responses, what you really truly meant to say was that the US is not a Christian State. A Christian State would imply that religion and state are one. That was your arguement, i'm truly not sure why you don't understand the difference.

I hope that clarifies things for you, as I stated above (two posts) I would look into the use of English to define things, specifically Nation and the way a majority can and will change the terminology used.

Regards,
T

Originally posted by torqpoc
We is a grouping of a people, when used in conjunction with Nation, he is talking about everyone within the Nation, hence he is speaking for all of the Americans and stating outright that you, the American people, do not consider yourselves to be living within a Christian Nation. He is actually wrong and he is also rather egotistical in the belief he can and should speak for everyone living in the US.

Incorrect. This is no different than Washington "speaking for all people" in the Treaty Of Tripoli (Article 11), where in he also expresses that we are not a Christian nation. It does not matter that some incorrectly assume that we are a Christian nation, we aren't. I have posed the challenge to anyone to point out the Christianity in our federal documents. No takers.

Yes, simply by the use of religious majority. If the majority of the people who believe in a religion are of a specific religion, then that Nation can be defined, as per the use of the English language as a "XXX Nation". You could, if you so wished, call the US a majority white nation also. I wouldn't recommend it though since there seems to be an issue with the use Nation for the Americans.

Note the difference in your terminology. When discussing religion you refer to it as a "christian nation". When discussing race you called it "majority white nation". Why delineate majority for one and not the other? My guess is to perpetuate the myth of a "christian nation".

Edit - Just to help clarify things, let us pick another country to define. Iran is a Muslim Nation. Would you argue the contrary and if so, why? It is also, for the record, an Islamist State.

Correct, Iran is a muslim nation because it is an Islamist state.

Having read and reread your post numerous times, and all other responses, what you really truly meant to say was that the US is not a Christian State. A Christian State would imply that religion and state are one. That was your arguement, i'm truly not sure why you don't understand the difference.

It is neither a christian nation or a christian state. Nomenclature and definition is not determined by majority. We are not a Female Nation though there are a majority of females in the U.S. Yet, using your logic, we are bound to refer to ourselves as such.

I hope that clarifies things for you, as I stated above (two posts) I would look into the use of English to define things, specifically Nation and the way a majority can and will change the terminology used.

It clarifies that there are typical ways of rationalizing the myth of the U.S. as being a Christian nation when shown massive evidence to the contrary. As previously stated, majority does not determine definition. It's sad that in our times people wish to believe it was a religion and not our freedoms which defines us and makes us great.