The Conspiracy of Being a "Good Person"

reply to post by Shadowflux

Take for instance the three examples I mentioned, those of Ghandi, Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King. All are known around the world for causing much positive change, for doing acts that, more often than not, required much personal sacrifice, however, all three of these people were leaders with many followers. It was exactly this power that they wielded over their followers that gave them the ability to affect such wide ranging and memorable positive change. If these people had adhered to the popular notion of total self sacrifice, of self denial and working only for the benefit of others they would never have risen to the position they had. Part of what I am proposing is that having one's own gain and the betterment of one's own earthly position as one of their primary goals is not necessarily evil in any way.

What the hell are you talking about? Those people you mentioned not only did what they did for them selfs but for a greater cause that they had and believed in which had to do with themselves in a greater frame, they weren't that much more holier or self sacrificing then there followers, they just had the cahonez to do what all the other dudes talked about ...So tell me do you know why no good deed goes unpunished?

In those peoples particular situation it's simple, many people do and say lots of stuff both good and bad, they just aren't remembered at the end of the day, or when its all said and done. Many people go through life and end up punished for what they do, for far lesser things no matter if it was good or bad. One of the reasons why people believe why those who do good deeds are punished or finish last is because, and get this... They focus only on those people that do as such, and don't see the others who die far younger or just drop off in the dumps for lesser things. Who knows eh, I guess they wish they had more courage, to do as they did so they focus on that, and don't see the others around them who have it worse, much worse its a matter of perspective. Besides doing good deeds sounds like hard work, and hard work sounds hard, and doing bad deeds, well there is always a catch now isn't there, plus even that it still sounds like hard work.

It is true that you will find more happiness in loved ones and true friends than you will in material things alone but why is it that we, as a society, feel that we can not have both? Can someone not be concerned with material wealth and success and also have deep meaningful relationships with other people? Why is it that we feel we must chose one or the other, that the two are mutually exclusive?

You can be rich and successful and be unhappy....And you can be rich and successful and be happy....And you can be poor and be unhappy......And you can be poor and be happy... Your probably confused and thinking of the whole bible Jesus allegory of rich man and heaven and camel and eye of the needle, thing....What he was referring to ultimately has no real apprehension and comprehension in the majority of those who are alive and will be alive on this planet. Stick to the simple stuff before you try to get your mind wrapped around the concept of what he was trying to express. If you like having lots of shiny new cars, and big houses, and lots of ladies, go ahead it really does not matter....at all... compared to somethings that others want.

What I am advocating, in a sense, is simply realism and self honesty. There are certain situations where blunt and brutal honesty can ruin a relationship with someone else quicker than greed or selfishness. This idea can be portrayed by as simple an example as a friend showing you artwork they have done and asking for your opinion. You know they have spent much time and effort on it, you know they have a large emotional investment in it, but what if you honestly don't think it's very good? Telling the honest truth would show total disregard for the friend's emotions and would betray your own lack of empathy and your callousness towards them.

Your way over thinking the small stuff. Do as you see fit, and live with the consequences whatever they might be, end of story.

This idea can be further shown by the evangelist in his large church full of followers. Leaders of mega churches no doubt benefit from their congregation, they gain prestige, power and wealth. Some may see them as charlatans or as con men but their followers do not. If you watch the congregation they are feeling extreme joy and love, they are getting the spiritual fulfillment they so greatly desire. These feelings motivate them, it drives them to be better people and to help others, it inspires them to seek higher spiritual fulfillment. When the leader then passes the collection plates around the congregation gladly donate their money, some churches even go as far as to collect 10% of each member's income. This obviously benefits both the leaders and the organization they have established, they have nice clothes, nice cars, they live in nice houses but have they committed any evil to attain these things? Have they hurt anyone in order to attain these things? I would offer the proposition that they have attained their success by making people happy, by giving them what they so desperately desire and by motivating large numbers of people to the attainment of higher and more "virtuous" goals.

More "virtuous" goals indeed, and who says what virtuous, in the first place? Sounds like your jealous, do you want a flock of your own? To thereby become more "virtuous". Again it really dont matter if people want to give there moneys and time to whoever for whatever reason, fine by me, though some of these things make for some great comedies, And others for great tragedies.

I do not feel that one must exclude earthly and material success from personal and intangible fulfillment. I think that one can have both but that one must play by the rules of the world if they want to achieve certain kinds of success. The means to material success and power, if you so desire them, are not by way of supposed virtues and are, generally, contrary to established thought and the philosophy of society and religion.

More rules again eh, I just get all tingly inside with the lolzz when I hear people looking for rules to play by, so as they can be successful and come out on top and have material success and power. So many virtues there are in this world, which one do you want to live by and fall by. I'm sure someone somewhere out there is selling there virtues and just looking for buyers.

No one has ever risen to the top solely by putting others before themselves, however, those at the top are in the best position to cause positive change for the greatest number of people. Good and evil lie within the individual and does not necessarily have anything to do with the way of life, their goals or their position in society. You can make others happy, you can make them like you, even love you in many ways and still be working towards your own personal gain and success.

Sounds like what every other fish in the pond would say, It almost sounds like you want something from people. But yes you and anybody else can do all that, that I quoted you above, even without all the gloomy bad and good and evil thing and a price must be payed thing you got going on. Or at least you can try. I'll just ignore all the contradictions and plain ignorance in all that you wrote, sounds like it could be worth a lolzz, I came for the lolzz and I stay for the free potato chips.

There are those that suffer goodness, remain humble. We need to rid them wicked changing our words.

reply to post by etherical waterwave

As matter of fact, it mostly occur these people crossing the line and take you for something in a wrong way are women. They always want to show they can do anything they want but they can't, they lack spiritual respect. Women a' stupid. Crude in all ways.

Yes we know women is the cause of all the problems in the world, I even read once in a children's book that one such woman ate a apple that caused a man to be kicked out of his garden home.....Heres some advice.. Get a grip.. get a clue.. buy a vowel.. and get a life.. but most of all when you gotzz problems...just blame god thats what I do, I'm pretty sure it, or he, will listen and care not...Unless god is a woman...then you would be screwed, since we know womenz is the cause of all our problemz.

I want to thank you all again for your responses, while there are few who agree with me the opposition has offered an interesting study into this subject matter and the varied opinions of those who believe contrary to the theme of this discussion. Again, I have read every response and will respond in one post, both to save time and to keep from repeating myself.

It seems that many who oppose what I have proposed do so on a religious or otherwise spiritual basis, that it is the individual's personal notions of spiritual growth and proper actions that lead people to react so negatively to these ideas I have put forward. It would seem that most people try to be "good people" because they fear some sort of divine or karmic retribution, that they believe their path in life will promise spiritual rewards and access to heaven. I must admit, however, that this is part of what I mentioned as pertaining to the "conspiracy", the idea that karmic or divine retribution will come from too much attention and emphasis placed on Earthly or material needs. In fact, I feel that many of the responses in this thread have further proven my point.

The concept that "truly good people" expect no reward and no return is both a fallacy and contrary to human nature. When you do good for others, whether it be something complex or something as simple as giving food to a hungry man, we naturally expect some sort of return even if it is as simple as expecting gratitude from those we have helped. We are told that we should be "good people" because we will receive spiritual rewards, enlightenment, spiritual growth or acceptance into heaven to name but a few. I would put forth the idea that people feel they should be good because of fear of retribution and the expectation of immaterial reward. We must be realistic and realism requires that we admit that no person is one sided, people are very complex and no one is a faerie tale hero with only good in their hearts and minds.

You may try to be as Christ like as you wish, you may try to give of yourself in every way but the majority of people will only take from you, they will consume your time and your energy and leave you worn out with nothing but the idea that you will receive satisfaction once your life is over. I have studied many religions, including the occult, for a long time and if I can say one thing for certain it is that no one can know the nature of the divine, no one can know what happens after life and no one can presume to understand the workings of the universe, all this must be taken on faith alone. It is this faith, instilled in people by gurus, preachers, politicians and philosophers that "good people" will operate on. We are told that denying ourselves, working for the good of others, acting contrary to our nature is not something to be understood but something to be done without question.

There is also another underlying theme in all religions and philosophies and that is the idea that not all people will be saved, not all will attain enlightenment, that only a few are worthy of the ultimate goal. It is also an underlying concept that no amount of teaching, no amount of work, will save the unholy or enlighten the unenlightened, these are things that each person must seek individually and it is an undeniable fact that most people have no real interest in putting forth the effort required to achieve these goals. This is true even in the Bible as the chaff is blown away by the wind. In light of these truths I ask, why should one spend their time and energy trying to do good for others when many are not worth the effort and will simply consume like animals and turn against you at the slightest provocation? Is it not better to focus on one's self, to achieve everything one wants from life and leave the chaff to the wind? If you come across someone who is worth the time and effort, who does have the intelligence and understanding to achieve something greater, then doing good for them, helping them and teaching them will indeed result in a return. This concept, of only helping those worth the effort, however, really does not coincide with the common notion of a "good person" or the idea of a "good person" put forth by religions, politicians and philosophy.
I believe that it is possible to act towards one's own gain in life without being "evil" and without rejecting the enlightenment or understanding one my have previously gained. I believe it is possible to use other people for your own gain without ever causing them harm and in some cases will bring them joy, contentment and, at times, knowledge. I don't think there is anything wrong with personal material gain or the desire for such and I don't think that the divine, or the universe, will turn against you simply because you desire this. I think that most of what we do, most of what happens on this planet, is of such little consequence when compared with divine and universal things that the difference between wealth and power and poverty and obscurity is not the defining factor in whether or not the the divine, or the universe, favors you.

There is, of course, more I could say but I must attend to other things. I will be reading every response and will be checking back through out the day. I will endeavor to respond in a more timely manner as I am slightly less busy than I have been. Thank you all, again, for taking the time to write such well thought out responses, I have been enjoying our discussion very much.

reply to post by Shadowflux


Shadow, I wish I could disagree with you, but I can't. I'm not a good person because of any religious influence, I do it because it feels like the right kind of person to be, and it's what I've been up to this point(early 40's). Having said that, I also have to acknowledge that, my goodness and kindness has led to more attacks, betrayal and misery than anyone would want to read about. I have lost so much because I was open and trusting to the wrong people, and I'm about to change that. I have no choice but to deal with people the same way they deal with me. My last name isn't christ . So, I'm about to get medieval on people's ass. Should be fun..

Originally posted by ldyserenity

Originally posted by BombDefined
As I have been saying for a while now, human evolution is no longer 'survival of the fittest', but 'survival of the ruthless'

edit on 29/12/2010 by BombDefined because: (no reason given)

You forgot, mean-spirited, spiritless, sociopaths.

Because everything in the OP is exactly a sociopath. Look it up, the main thing a sociopath is well versed in is seeming ethical and virtuous while being selfish, self-serving and downright evil.

I also agree with this. I've dealt with a few sociopaths, before I knew what they were. But, the problem is, you can't beat people like this(and they number in the millions, I think) by being, nice, or reasonable. If a sociopath is taking action against you, you basically have to destroy them, completely, utterly, because, if you don't, they WILL destroy you. It's their nature to do so.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
You may try to be as Christ like as you wish, you may try to give of yourself in every way but the majority of people will only take from you, they will consume your time and your energy and leave you worn out with nothing but the idea that you will receive satisfaction once your life is over. I have studied many religions, including the occult, for a long time and if I can say one thing for certain it is that no one can know the nature of the divine, no one can know what happens after life and no one can presume to understand the workings of the universe, all this must be taken on faith alone. It is this faith, instilled in people by gurus, preachers, politicians and philosophers that "good people" will operate on. We are told that denying ourselves, working for the good of others, acting contrary to our nature is not something to be understood but something to be done without question.

My friend,

I believe the secret is to BE Christ like. Now as there are many interpretations of what Christ meant in his parables, I'll explain briefly my views.

Do Good not in hopes of a future heaven after death. Do good because that is what you want others to do in this life. Let them learn from your example. Be forgiving of their short comings for they have reasons for having them. Be loving to your fellow man. Do not judge.

The hardest part people have with doing what they know to be the right thing, is they are quick to judge others for not doing the same. People can feel when they are being judged. Can't you? When they feel themselves being judged by another, the righteousness of the judger is invalidated. The person being judged immediately goes defensive and looks for a way to bring you down. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

No one is in a position to judge. We are all perfect. What?? Yes, we are all perfect. God does not make mistakes. He made each one of us in his image, perfect. If anyone is to claim an imperfection on another, it is only Gods place to do it!

I promise you, if you just be yourself, treat everyone as if they are perfect, you will have more people wanting to emulate you, and you will be amazed how few people dare to try to walk on you.

Who came up with this idea that we are imperfect?

We are not the judge.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM

Stop giving him the keys to the secret, since he's already made it clear what he's all about and how he wants to simply use such things to his own advantage!

reply to post by Shadowflux

The concept that "truly good people" expect no reward and no return is both a fallacy and contrary to human nature. When you do good for others, whether it be something complex or something as simple as giving food to a hungry man, we naturally expect some sort of return even if it is as simple as expecting gratitude from those we have helped. We are told that we should be "good people" because we will receive spiritual rewards, enlightenment, spiritual growth or acceptance into heaven to name but a few. I would put forth the idea that people feel they should be good because of fear of retribution and the expectation of immaterial reward. We must be realistic and realism requires that we admit that no person is one sided, people are very complex and no one is a faerie tale hero with only good in their hearts and minds.

I am going to disagree here...even though most of what you say is true.

I dont think all people do good because they expect reward, gratitude, ect. I think there are those souls that are just true to their inner nature of being...and do good, because its the natural thing to do. Yes you make great points about religions and many spiritual paths that talk of rewards, growth, ect for doing the 'better things' but there still are people/souls that do 'good' because that is the natural thing for them to do.

I grew up with alot of family that were just 'good natured'. Yes they were used, taken advantage of,ect....but they always stayed with their inner nature of 'being' that was a path more lived for others then their self. My mother was religious but my father was not. My father was and still is...the biggest 'giver' of his time, his home, his heart, his attention, ect....then anyone I have ever met in my life. Many have used him....but also, he has changed, many others lives and perspectives. He sought no glory, gratification, reward....it is just his nature to be this way. I think we are all born with this, a natural nature of being.....and with time, hardships, hurt feelings, self desires, envy, ect....we build walls and make reasons why we should not adhere to this inner nature within us.

reply to post by Shadowflux


This is quite the situation now isn't it? It is so weird how we are drawn to be good people when we live in a world that shows that being a not so nice person will prevail with worldly rewards.... Well being a good person is GREAT. Do not let this bump you along your path to becoming a wonderful mind. I believe that things you do in this life will reflect wherever we go next... and especially if you're following Christ, because obviously we are placed in a world controlled by negative energy but this world is one of testing and perseverance. What is in store for us from keeping a level headed mind is much more rewarding past this life... and if you want to prove the worth of being a good person in this life: you will simply FEEL great being a good person in this existence.

Sure people will pass you by and take everything for granted you do for them.... but you see that you are being a good mind/soul and it helps you develop yourself and eventually it could aid other souls/minds towards improving themselves as well. Yes there are many stuck in negative mode, but don't give up. For anybody reading this on the good side of the bill, acknowledge the world we live in and keep being you. That's what life is all about...

reply to post by Shadowflux


Seem you also fancy yourself to be smarter than the rest of us as well!

Anyway, I myself have decided to make millions, because I can, and I'll give it all away, or most of it anyway, making money is not THAT big of a deal, it comes and goes. And of course anyone that acccomplished financial success for the most part needs to enlist the cooperation of others, through a mutual exchange hopefully, and not manipulation..

In fact, part of my own business model is going to involve giving 50% of all proceeds of all after expense sales to clean water in the third world, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it's a great business idea, which is sure to pull in many many more customers and dispell or break down any hesitancy they might have had in going ahead and becoming a customer. I'm even going to make free stuff available to suck them in.

But you see, having placed my heart first on God's kingdom of love, I can do all of this with a will that would blow you away, and with a mind sharper than a double edged sword, since it's in alignment with a higher purpose than mere self interest, which is pathetic, to be working only for that, what a loser..

We can do more good with money however, than without it, so might as well rack it in and put it to good use.

Someday I hope to put to shame the selfish a-holes with a business model that will kick their selfish ass to the curb, and when they all jump on the bandwagon, for self interest alone, I will harness their selfishness in service to the will of God, and they won't even know it.

So while I SOUND a lot like the OP, there's a difference, in terms of the motive force and the catalyst, which must be love, or the whole thing's a waste of time, and will amount to nothing in the final analysis at the end of the day.

What this whole conversation boils down to, is the meaning and purpose, of life, and who and what we really are and are made of.

We either have something of value to offer and contribute, born of our innermost heart's desire (well placed) or we have nothing, and are empty hollow shells, but strangely some people are just made like that, they just don't really care. The lights are on, but no one's home.

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


Always like reason, I.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Shadowflux

 

In fact, part of my own business model is going to involve giving 50% of all proceeds of all after expense sales to clean water in the third world, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it's a great business idea, which is sure to pull in many many more customers and dispell or break down any hesitancy they might have had in going ahead and becoming a customer. I'm even going to make free stuff available to suck them in.

But you see, having placed my heart first on God's kingdom of love, I can do all of this

edit on 31-12-2010 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

You and I are a lot more a like than you would care to believe. The only real difference is that I don't try to delude myself into thinking that what I'm doing is "God's work", that I have some special relationship with the divine which allows me to use the facade of good works to my own personal gain. You are employing the same tactics I have mentioned in all my posts yet you are telling yourself that your are a good person and are working to make the world better.

Your business model allows you to prey on people's desire to be good in hopes that they open their wallets to you. You make them think they are helping the world, which makes them feel good, but they are helping you to expand your bank account. Your idea of donating 50% of all profit allows you to continue your claims of being a good person while you treat 50% of all your profits as a tax deductible donation. I have to give you credit for you business model as it effectively employs pretty much everything I've been talking about and your idea of treating half your profits as a tax write off is inspired.

Some of us can be honest with ourselves and some of us need to feel good about ourselves, everyone is different.

reply to post by IAMIAM


I feel I am not judging people in that I am not condemning them because of their short comings, I am simply being honest and realistic about the nature of humanity.

People, in the sense of a divine creation, can be considered perfect, but it is the animating consciousness, that which makes us each individuals which is imperfect and corrupts the perfection. It is also this individuality that drives people to use and take advantage of others who wish to do good for them. In a philosophical sense you may be able to say that people are perfect but in reality we are forced to admit the fact that people are corrupted and most have lost any sense of divine perfection, any connection to anything beyond the physical senses, that many can be considered only slightly above animals. It may be an unselfish act to offer your flesh to a pack of starving hyenas but it would not be a wise decision in any way.

I feel I am not judging, merely accepting reality and acting accordingly.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


It is true that we are born with certain natural inclinations, and in one sense I would advocate being true to one's self even if it opened them up to being used, however, some are born with natural yet negative inclinations. People are born with a propensity to violence, to sexual deviancy, to addiction, to many other negative "natures" and they must work to change those natures in order to live a productive and fulfilling life.

If others wish to be good then I have nothing negative to say towards them, if they wish to give of themselves despite the punishment received as reward then I must admire their determination and the conviction of their beliefs but I do not have to live as they do.

Why don't you tell us about yourself, if you're a loving person, friendly, whathaveyou. It would be interesting to know what motivates you, what you like about yourself and others. Your cold dispassionate thesis is a little unusual. Can you share with us some more about who you are, what you do, what you're like, who you love, that kind of thing? Just checking to see if there's a heart in there..

Originally posted by etherical waterwave
reply to post by galadofwarthethird

 

Always like reason, I.

Etherical waves are in essence....essence, as water is in essence the essence of life on this planet, Once I was playing at being alive, and I went on a walk in a park for a reason or two, past a phantom who asked me were, the city of eldorado was, so I told him and went on my way. Later on my path, and past way past some more weird characters, there was this door, which said above it, abandon all hope all ye who enter here. And I thought, "sounds like fun".....So what can I say, I thought wrong..... There is reason in liking reason you, but there is no reason which you don't like, which you will except as reasonable. Ever since that door, there are these things and phantoms following me, a chain leading back an eternity. I think they are stalkers, whats there problem they need to get a life, who will volunteer?..... My next ride, since my current car is not so smooth and falling apart, will be white, its a pretty color even though its the presence of all color's, so not really a single color, though some say white is the absence of all color. Who knows, who cares, what is the absence of all colors in the presence of color, is it black is it white, a etherical color wave theory no.

Now what was the reason for all that spooky jabber wabber. Always like reason, I to.....Why so serious all....Happy New Years.

reply to post by Shadowflux

some are born with natural yet negative inclinations. People are born with a propensity to violence, to sexual deviancy, to addiction, to many other negative "natures"

I have to disagree that anyone is born with a negative nature. I think personality types, the world around us, nature and nurture can make us more prone to struggling with our earthly natures....but I think we are all born with the same spiritual nature and some if not most, get that nature pushed down early on in life, not knowing its ever there.

Its debatable that people are born to be addicts, violent, ect. I do agree though, some peoples life is laid out in that they will have to work harder then others to fight the temptations of violence outlets, sexual lusts, and filling their being with addictions ect.

Im a believer that if someone is in the need of help in the 'mind'....you mst start work on their soul first...for it may be hurt, abused, lost, lacking loved, and many other things...which leads to, the mind being 'ill'.

Anyways...happy new years to all
LV

There's an amazing book I've just started reading called The demon's sermon on the martial arts", by Isaai Chozanshi, translation by William Scott Wilson. it was written in the 1700's.. here's a quote: the demon said to the swordsman, "fundamentally, man's mind is not without good. it is simply that from the moment he has life, he is always being brought up with perversity. thus, having no idea that he has gotten used to being soaked in it, he harms his self-nature and falls into evil. human desire is the root of this perversity".

I think that quote strikes at the heart of this debate.

Old saying "You cannot cheat a honest man." Maybe because the con man relies on the other guy thinking that they are getting something for nothing or that they are somehow cheating them.

With that said, I will leave you with this......

www.dresdencodak.com...