The Conspiracy of Being a "Good Person"

I beleive you are onto something here op. the government wants submission and thou to be a good citizen, religion wants submission and thou to be a good pupil, when your world turns upside down resort to either A or B for reference. But Reference A and reference B do not play by the same rules as the cattle do. Very good post as when all else fails the plants, moles, counsilers, teachers, professors, vatican, president, etc, etc. want you to take the Ghandi,San Suu Kyi approach to the situation and for heaven sake do not act out of desperation, hear take a pill for your anxiety and god, and your good living will see you through.
Yes, op you have just woke up to your surroundings

if you are poor or not rich, yes, you should serve yourself, not others or religions

but if you are a millionaire, billionaire, trillionaire, you should try to help improve this world, there are no excuses

really, why would you NEED to get more money if you already are rich ... its just mind boggling

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Most religions hold such virtues as honesty, compassion, generosity and selflessness as their most righteous goals. Our western society idolizes and sanctifies those people that we feel most embody the ideal of a "good person", Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, even those people who would otherwise be considered selfish businessmen can change their image through humanitarian actions. Those members of society who are known for being concerned with only themselves are often maligned and hated, made to be modern devils and held up as examples of what not to do.

Though I have studied much and, in the past, have sought to embody these positive concepts as best I can, I must admit that I no longer believe these goals to be worthwhile. It doesn't take much knowledge of religion or philosophy to see who gains the most in our society. This is no modern occurrence as a brief study of history will plainly show that those who have succeeded the most, who have gained the most, were ruthless, selfish, self serving and merciless. This is true for almost every facet of life both modern and historic.

Hello my friend,

First, thank you for sharing your thoughts. There are many in these trying times who share them but would not dare to put them out for all to see. I have faced similar thoughts, even darker thoughts in my life. At one point I was so fed up with the human race, I thought of taking as many out with vengeance as I could with this short moment of time I exist here. I came very close to crossing over the abyss, but was pulled back by an insight. I will share this with you. If it changes your perspective a little, wonderful, if not, well we all have our paths we must walk and I will bid you the very best on your journey.

"This is no modern occurrence as a brief study of history will plainly show that those who have succeeded the most, who have gained the most, were ruthless, selfish, self serving and merciless."

Here is a little perspective for you.

The earth as we know it is approximately 4.6 billion years old.

Modern Man is approximately 350,000 years old.

Modern Society is only about 2000 years old, depending on where you place your marker.

Your life span is on average 70 years.

My point? Your life is but a very small building block among many in the history of this existence. It is your unique "stone" to be worked how you see fit. What you do with your life will forever be a part of the history of Man's march into the future. YOU are building tomorrow every day.

Mankind is not meant to be self serving. It is not how we are designed. Being self serving is something we are taught. As evidence, when we are born we are totally dependant on others for our survival. We depend on others for the longest stretch of time than any other creature. We are not born with fur, with fangs, with claws. We do not have knowledge at birth on what to eat, how to obtain it, or even how to care for our bodies beyond food. We need shelter, we need companionship, and we need love. This is what our early years teach us.

It is unfortunate that some become self serving, ruthless, and merciless. But, guess what, at some point in their life, they too stood where you stand. They too were kind and loving and dependant on others. Sadly, like you, life taught them that to "succeed" they had to change. They forgot the first lessons of life, that we need each other. Through their actions they too will teach others to change from the loving people they were. You are there now my friend. You can either be the teacher or the student.

How do you measure success? In this short span of time you have on this earth, what kind of block do you wish to add to the structure of mankind? The block of stone you build today, will be the temple that your childrens children shelter under tomorrow.

The choice is yours my friend. I will love and admire your work, regardless of your choice.

With Love,

Your Brother

I guess it all depends on your definition of success...and happiness.

No matter your religious beliefs or lack there of, good comes to good...bad comes to bad. Now it might take awhile... but, after 47 years...I know it's true.

Now some call it good kharma, some call it casting your bread upon the waters and it will return to you tenfold, but if you place your values and success in money, power, and material possessions...you will never be truly happy nor satisfied... that is why the rich always want to get richer... they are never fed nor satisfied.

True peace is found in enjoying the world around you, enjoying the fruits of your labors, and in serving others.

What value is found in a small child's smile, an old person's laugh, the touch of a small babe's finger wrapped around yours... how much is a sunset worth, a nightsky full of stars, moonlight glowing across a snowy field...?

There was a time when I was young and tried to set the world on fire...success, prestige, power, money were the goals of endless work...weekends away... seeking opportunities... all for naught. What profits a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul?

No matter your beliefs, it is our job to help, guide, build up, encourage, love, give and forgive all of those around us...sometimes I do a better job than others, but that is the goal never the less... everything else is only temporary.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

To give is to recieve, and is to grow and expand as a self aware being. To take for one's own self, is to contract, and DIE, even though you might possess the keys to a Mercedes Benz!

Could you change that to a Bentley? Mercedes aren't that big a deal anymore, and I think you can drive one and still be a good person.

reply to post by Shadowflux


It is to be independent first when one starts to do these things. One must stand alone first and then it is good to build structure in your life. Pray to Jesus, the savior of all.

Christianityinjectioncatalogue.

this is a purely pragmatic point of view.

id ego superego.

there are enough good people left to take advantage of, but eventually this way of thinking will bring about full on self-destruction when there is no one left to exploit. then it will be a lions den and no usuefull meals except other lions.

Well, I've personally often dealt with people who have the same attitude as the OP. Remember, good people are not idiots. And they do see through you. Remember one important thing if you choose to adopt this attitude. Some day, some one you've run over will get back at you. And you won't be able to dodge it. Good for you...

I want to thank everyone for their honest and well thought out replies, as much as I would like to respond to each post individually I think it would be better to respond in one post, rest assured, however, that I have carefully read each response.

I think there are a few things I must clarify as I feel some are perceiving things as too black and white. My argument isn't necessarily in favor of "evil" or bad over "good", I'm not advocating causing harm to anyone in anyway. While it may seem that some of the concepts I have spoken of are rather villainous in a very simple sense, at the root, I am simply advocating honesty with one's self. It is undeniable that someone who is nasty and blatantly out for themselves will end up rather lonely, that someone who callously uses others will have very few friends but is it not possible to be personally, and perhaps secretly, concerned mostly with our own gain and still do good for others?

Take for instance the three examples I mentioned, those of Ghandi, Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King. All are known around the world for causing much positive change, for doing acts that, more often than not, required much personal sacrifice, however, all three of these people were leaders with many followers. It was exactly this power that they wielded over their followers that gave them the ability to affect such wide ranging and memorable positive change. If these people had adhered to the popular notion of total self sacrifice, of self denial and working only for the benefit of others they would never have risen to the position they had. Part of what I am proposing is that having one's own gain and the betterment of one's own earthly position as one of their primary goals is not necessarily evil in any way.

I also feel that some of the responses in this thread are demonstrating the fallacies that I have mentioned in my opening post, mainly the idea that those who are rich or successful are ultimately unhappy and unfulfilled and those that do not seek personal gain, those that seek more spiritual or otherwise intangible goals are more happy and more fulfilled. I feel that this is a major part of the conspiracy that I've mentioned, there are no absolutes in this world and one can not say that the rich are definitely unhappy and the poor or middle class are. It is true that you will find more happiness in loved ones and true friends than you will in material things alone but why is it that we, as a society, feel that we can not have both? Can someone not be concerned with material wealth and success and also have deep meaningful relationships with other people? Why is it that we feel we must chose one or the other, that the two are mutually exclusive?

What I am advocating, in a sense, is simply realism and self honesty. There are certain situations where blunt and brutal honesty can ruin a relationship with someone else quicker than greed or selfishness. This idea can be portrayed by as simple an example as a friend showing you artwork they have done and asking for your opinion. You know they have spent much time and effort on it, you know they have a large emotional investment in it, but what if you honestly don't think it's very good? Telling the honest truth would show total disregard for the friend's emotions and would betray your own lack of empathy and your callousness towards them. A lie, however, would make them feel good about the artwork, would strengthen your relationship and would motivate your friend to continue their pursuit of artistic perfection. Society and religion would have us believe that honesty is a virtue to aspire to but reality, and experience, shows us that dishonesty, and sometimes manipulation, can be the more favorable route.

This idea can be further shown by the evangelist in his large church full of followers. Leaders of mega churches no doubt benefit from their congregation, they gain prestige, power and wealth. Some may see them as charlatans or as con men but their followers do not. If you watch the congregation they are feeling extreme joy and love, they are getting the spiritual fulfillment they so greatly desire. These feelings motivate them, it drives them to be better people and to help others, it inspires them to seek higher spiritual fulfillment. When the leader then passes the collection plates around the congregation gladly donate their money, some churches even go as far as to collect 10% of each member's income. This obviously benefits both the leaders and the organization they have established, they have nice clothes, nice cars, they live in nice houses but have they committed any evil to attain these things? Have they hurt anyone in order to attain these things? I would offer the proposition that they have attained their success by making people happy, by giving them what they so desperately desire and by motivating large numbers of people to the attainment of higher and more "virtuous" goals.

I do not feel that one must exclude earthly and material success from personal and intangible fulfillment. I think that one can have both but that one must play by the rules of the world if they want to achieve certain kinds of success. The means to material success and power, if you so desire them, are not by way of supposed virtues and are, generally, contrary to established thought and the philosophy of society and religion. No one has ever risen to the top solely by putting others before themselves, however, those at the top are in the best position to cause positive change for the greatest number of people. Good and evil lie within the individual and does not necessarily have anything to do with the way of life, their goals or their position in society. You can make others happy, you can make them like you, even love you in many ways and still be working towards your own personal gain and success.

I have a lot to do today but I will be checking back through out the rest of the day and night and I will read your responses and reply when I can, thank you all again for you replies.

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 38

A truly good man is not aware of his goodness,
And is therefore good.
A foolish man tries to be good,
And is therefore not good.

A truly good man does nothing,
Yet nothing is left undone.
A foolish man is always doing,
Yet much remains to be done

When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.
When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.
When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,
He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there is ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.
Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of the Tao.
It is the beginning of folly.

www.wussu.com...


The Elites have reserved for themselves the perogative 'to taste the fruits of the tree of knowledge of good and evil'

Hence their maxim of the end justifies the means - for the serfs there is a lot of high tone morality and a fixed set of do's and don'ts - you are too stupid to be allowed to exercise independent judgement.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


wise, I hope everybody understands.

To me, the simple fact that we contemplate materialism vs spirituality breathes life into the very existence of spirituality. By spirituality I mean that there is much more to life(or beyond life) than what you have physically aquired through your mortal life.

I agree with everything to the OP, I believe however that since spirituality exists that in the sense that marerialism in life is a test to one's individual free will. Once man has opened his eyes and encountered this crossroad of life, begins the true test, will you be truly selfless for the fellow man or will you be selfless in hopes to gain something?

Like you said, were indoctrinated from birth to believe being good is the right path (which i believe) in promises of what you desire and/or to treat others the way you wish to be treated. What's important is knowing that you WILL be DECEIVED, and staying true to yourself.

As a mortal I live with materialism and it's desires everyday, I understand and attempt to slowly rid of it from myself however I understand, accept, and co-exist with this way of life. I try to keep a healthy balance of not allowing myself to be deceived and manipulated, to not always be too nice. However as I live such a life, without a doubt I strive and hope to live in all terms of "goodness".

EDIT TO ADD:
Since you believe, and I can agree, that society is shown constantly to be a "good" society so that way "evil" may reap from them, doesnt that show you giving in to such deceit puts you on their level? there's a difference between knowing how to protect yourself and then exploiting others to profit. This is a system created by Man not God. I don't believe in the devil, although giving in and following deceit is like the equivalent to selling your soul to the devil.

2nd EDIT:

I just read your recent post above Shadowflux, and I have to agree. I can see where your coming from, there are many shades of gray. On a macro and extreme scale I believe in achieving true selflessness.
However, not every situation is the same. There very will be different tactics chosen for different situations. Sometimes there are mental, emotional, and physical ways to protect ones that would be considered negative, that I deem neccessary. Bottom line is, knowing that mankind and life is like this, judging situations for the appropriate action, and above all striving for "good".

reply to post by gemineye


You'd be suprised how many guys out there would appreciate being able to find a "nice girl", miss. From what I've seen, stuck up, snotty (and predatory?) women are a dime a dozen these days. So don't give up on being a "nice girl" just yet. Just sayin...

As for how to be a "good person" and not be taken advantage of, I've found the best solution is to speak politely but also carry a big stick (or boom-stick), to paraphrase the words of the late president Roosevelt. Being a nice person doesn't mean you can't $%@^ someone up when they try to cross you.

reply to post by Shadowflux


Well thought-out and well-written...but hopefully your a hypocrite. For if this backfires, and your true intent is exposed, oh Lord.

For me, the difference may be summed up in two statements, the first from Laveyan Satanism, which advocates what the Satanist calls a purely "rational self interest", without regard to anyone else, who's motto is

"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

vs. the inspired, daring addage of St. Augustine, which is

"Love, and do as thou wilt."

which Crowley came along and inverted, saying "Love UNDER WILL" making self will and self determinism supreme.

It could be very tempting to go that route, particularly if one is motivated or driven by anti-religious sentiment. That said, however, the benefits of placing the will like a bit in the mouth to the harness of love, are manifold. I'll come back later and try to address this more fully, by showing that love is it's own reward, and that it need not negate self interest.

There is something to this thread that is very very important imho. Look forward to revisiting this.

Regards,

NAM

Have you heard this phrase op "No good deed goes unpunished" it's another phrase that people believe in but has some truth to it, as well as many lies. There is a deep truth it, but I wont go into it, just wanted to throw that out there, because I'm sure many people who have done some good deed's have received some not very good results in return. But for every action there is a reaction, and so on.

Originally posted by BombDefined
As I have been saying for a while now, human evolution is no longer 'survival of the fittest', but 'survival of the ruthless'

edit on 29/12/2010 by BombDefined because: (no reason given)

You forgot, mean-spirited, spiritless, sociopaths.
Because everything in the OP is exactly a sociopath. Look it up, the main thing a sociopath is well versed in is seeming ethical and virtuous while being selfish, self-serving and downright evil.

I will soon be starting a second job. Not so I can afford a Bently, but to pay my bills. But now I see that purse snatching or robbing 7eleven is the way to go. Immagine how f@#ked up the world would be if even a small percent of the population took your advice.... Good luck with that.

Maybe this helps to clarify the status quo of the universe. Assuming that this isn't all mambo jumbo ofcourse.

reply to post by Shadowflux


For me, this view would depend on the value you place on 'gain' in your life. Also, for me, it would depend on what you prioritise in your life and how you perceive the words 'good' and 'gain/profit'- what your expectations and comprehensions are of those words.

For me being a 'good person' isnt about 'better than' or expectations of others or even of gain or reward. The label 'good' for me means something entriely different than it seems to for others. The result of "goddness" in my life is a calmness and inner sensation of peacefulness and accord with my own values and a growing organic energetic pathway of growing comprehension of the role of 'right action' in my lfie as I live it....its not about external values, religions etc. Its not about pleasing anyone or 'getting' anything. Thought it was at one time I admit.

My values have grown from my life experiences..which taught me mainly..what "is not".
eg: XYZ is not Love..ABC isnt faith..DFE isnt joy etc...
These experiences of 'is nots' , when cumulativly examined, led me to form a valued and reliable comprehension within my mind and heart of what actually "is"...and even then..what 'is' remained relative and meaningful only to my own understanding...not for preaching or pushing outwardly.

The old sayings..'Know yourself'...'the kingdom within'...et al, led me to examining my own motivations and sense of right and wrong sans external dogma. I hadnt realised until I did that how conditioned I was and how hard it was to see the difference between what I thought I believed and what I was actually believing which was evidenced only through my actions, fears and surface thoughts.

It took some time to sort this kind of truth from lies, to seperate and sustain a productive seperation between the distortions of mind and the conditioning of my life, from what I really thought, wanted , hoped for and wanted to choose to believe or believe in.

Just accepting that 'thoughts' werent 'thinking' was hard...and learning how to think..for myself..was and is a 'good' journey, which for me is a term definined by results.

Its one that saw me 'gain' nothing externally, except to be free to continue to grow and widen the comprehensions of what is and isnt, something that takes place solely within...itself a "profit" which I value more in my life than any other concept of 'profit'.

Examining right and wrong good and bad etc is where I started...but its only a start. Doing so internally reduced the need for blanket generalisations and judgment which was useful but not initially necessarily 'pleasing' or 'good' as it also compelled a greater responsibility and added a weight to my life.

Learning what is *mine* - my underlying actual belief as oposed to felt beliefs, examining my own reasoning and thoughts, my fears etc..and what is and isnt mine..what is gorged fear or laziness or indoctrination..undertaking that sorting process truthfully, has given me a foothold with life and Self, something that other forms of examination or comparison couldnt have done...as most of the other forms of examination and growth required I exlude the natural and fear, reject, scorn or abdicate my Self to the will of others.
This I found ended many internal wars and was or has been, 'good'....for me.


Interesting topic..

thank you

Rosha