Is This China’s First Stealth Fighter? (Picture)

reply to post by BLV12


Who is trolling? It isn't my fault that you took the line of CGI/photoshop on some of the J-20 images?
If you can't stand your theory being challenged, then simply live with it!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

For those still following the story they appear to be gearing up for a first flight, possibly in front of VIPs and media?

Recent images at Chengdu show arrival of transport aircraft previously used for VIP transport. The ground crew have been photographed in new coveralls and portaloos have been installed on part of the airfield. Tomorrow might see the planned first flight?

Links to new images.

oi56.tinypic.com...

img.fyjs.cn...

TJ

Found a PDF that has 11 pages detailing the images of the aircraft.
Let me know what you all think, not sure it has been posted, was found on cryptome.org

Looks a lot like a cut and pastes from another board, with the same basic images as found else where.

Chinese Stealth Aircraft Photos
pdf doc

There are some very interesting images posted on this thread now, well done OP and those who found them.

I wouldn't claim to be an aerospace expert, but some observations/reaction to the better pictures posted here:

It looks bigger, longer and more powerful than what I have seen of the F22...it looks like it could carry quite a load (of ordnance) quite a distance, very quickly...? It almost reminded me of the F1-11...I would say faster but then looks can be deceptive and that could be down to a whole bunch of other factors (weight/power/drag...)

What could such things be telling us about their strategic objectives/set-up?

Could this be a very early prototype awaiting additional kit, such as more advanced/stealthy refinements, such as at the rear/exhausts...alterations to trim the shape of control surfaces etc...?


Any thoughts...?

reply to post by curioustype


What I know about aircraft and in particular about military aircraft you couldn't write on the back of a postage stamp, in fact you couldn't write it on anything because I do not know anything at all about the subject but 2 things strike me about this whole thing:

China are allowing the pictures out into the public and international domain:

1.Because they want to 'encourage' a certain feeling from the worlds populace towards their military power which as a pleb I have never related to aircraft capability or prowess. (My images of the Chinese military is thousands of troops marching in tandem through Tianamen square) So great global PR because all the other ill informed plebs like me suddenly have a 'new found respect' for the big red army!

2. Because, this strikes me more than anything else, if this is what they are letting us see, what the hell do they have up their sleeve in either black ops or development?!?

reply to post by ADVISOR
nice find!!!! that led me to www. youtube J20 video there is a set of vids up loaded yesterday, let see who can say fake now!!!!, This is a real threat , take it seriously, there was articles on this J20 last night on cnn and yahoo news, see what the air force high ups had to say.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by spacedonk
Gates our Sec Def, will get fist look at it next week, and i am sure that they, China, will put up one good show, "you Americans, see what we can make ha ha ha" and you thought it would take us years, now tell us to back off from Taiwan we have J20 and DF21D, and that's not all we have, just what we want you to see" got to think like them, and now i just read gates wants to cut Def beget???? this might change his mind.

Well, this makes it official enough for me. I just found this.

China media report mystery stealth fighter photos
news.yahoo.com...

I think they said the heck with it.... lets show and play.

reply to post by bekod


With Russia coming out with the PAK-FA, and now China the J-20, you would think that in a few years the US will rethink it's current course.

At the moment there is no need to panic, it will be another a considerable amount of time before Russia starts fielding the PAK-FA, and at least as long until China fields the J-20.

reply to post by BLV12


It is sad that you have to resort to personal insults.

------------------------------

For those following the events from Chengdu.

The flight today at Chengdu has been cancelled, according to the Chinese forums. VIPs were noted getting a guided tour of the aircraft. The airspace was cleared and the nearby international airport was closed down for the period.



According to the Chinese forums many spectators were moved on from the best viewing spots. People were even up the trees!



Looking at the images it is clear that the weather got in the way!

New video of J-20 being towed. Taken from eastern side of Chengdu.



TJ

reply to post by tommyjo


Great video. Well, I guess that puts any speculation to rest.

Good night Irene.

Man it looks sleek.

Of course, maybe it couldn't work and .... nevermind. Just stick with the weather.

good one

Yeah lets see that first flight.. Not sure if it was cancelled or never intended. Weather didn't seem to be terrible and the met forecast was good.
Also would like to see a better view of the nose up taxi test..

All in all spanking sensational news for the new year.

Some memorable discussions from yesteryear

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Lastly its interesting how the shape seems to match the weapon loadout model on those fancy MFDs display at Zhuhai a few years back.

reply to post by Daedalus3


I agree with you about the cancel reasons. Yes, I saw the video but shouldn't a fighter type plane be able to fly in any type of weather?

I would think the worse the better to show the full capibilities of the thing,

Wimps....

I checked out that thread also. You were correct. Some good stuff.

Originally posted by lewman
it would be funny if they just landed one at jfk airport and claimed there navigation systems went down, i could see china doing that kind of thing just for fun like with the submarine.

Good if they did.

We could treat it just like they did the U.S. spy plane that landed in china awhle back. Take it apart to see how it's made and then give it back in crates.

But sadly, seriously doubt if obama has the cojones to play tough on the same level as the chinese. More likely, obama would but a nice ribbon and bow on it and just hand it over.

just stepped into this thread, and found myself reliefed that they obviously tried to make a better F-22.

according to an article posted with janes defense...

external link to a PDF doc
Stevenson Sprey Commentary on F-22

the F-22 does not really perform like expected

so its interesting to see the chinese build an obviously heavier, slightly larger plane
without thrust vectoring, and too small canards to be effective.
Also trying to copy a 'stealthy' design, where we already figured that this is more or less nonsense, since its limiting weaponary, and makes the whole fuselage too heavy.

cool, if this is china's new competitor in the skies...
no thread till the next generation of fighterplanes emerges.

Their only advantage with this one will be not being a flying playstation, like the F-22.

Originally posted by tommyjo
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

Even the artist admits the above image is CGI. It was created based on what the artist thinks the design will actually look like. Note that the serial on the CGI image reads 2012. The serial on the actual aircraft is 2001.

Nobody in the Defence Media is using that image, because they know it it CGI because they monitor the Chinese forums. Many of the Chinese forums have CGI threads. Unfortunately lots of the CGI images are ripped off, with the tag edited out and reposted as real all over the web.

TJ

The tail shadows say it all
CGI to the max

According to the Chinese forums it was all systems go for the test flight yesterday. They noted that the chase aircraft Aircrew were lining up around their aircraft. A J-10 and K-8 were noted as being the chase aircraft. The weather forecast for yesterday was visibility down to 2 miles with haze/fog/smog. You can see poor visibility from the images on the 7th. Chinese enthusiasts also noted that a J-11 fighter (Su-27 Flanker) was up to keep the airspace clear during the airspace closure.

Aviation enthusiasts have been noting engine nozzle differences on the J-20. There was rumours yesterday of two J-20s out on the flight line, but that was quickly dismissed. So far the only airframe noted has been the one carrying the 2001 serial.

It appears that the AL-31 (dark nozzles) and a new variant of the Chinese WS-10 engine are being tested on the J-20?



img.cjdby.com...

img.fyjs.cn...

en.wikipedia.org...

On the 7th the VIPs were shown around the J-20. Note nozzles.



TJ

reply to post by bekod


oh the blessed irony if the US military use chinese components in their airtillery?!?

They are definitely canny businessmen if nothing else!

Originally posted by tommyjo
According to the Chinese forums it was all systems go for the test flight yesterday. They noted that the chase aircraft Aircrew were lining up around their aircraft. A J-10 and K-8 were noted as being the chase aircraft.

Yes but again, all that is hearsay, as we have no official confirmation of:

(1) The flight was sched to happen (And we wouldn't expect a notification when it does).
Infact I would only expect a postevent release of footage and not a live telecast (a la Shenzhou 5 launch and re-entry). Interestingly, I wonder how 'lax' the security personnel would be in controlling capture and dissemination of footage taken during a live flight.

(2) Whether it was actually cancelled due weather or other reasons. (if it was ever meant to fly in the first place)

(3) The K-8 or the J-10 being regarded as chase planes. Just because footage reveals their proximity to the prototype and/or because of activity around them seems to be occurring at the same time the prototype was being tended to.


Here's why this is intriguing: I do not recollect taxi footage of the F-22 released prior to first flight, and nor do I recollect the same for the F-117 or the B-2 ( The B-2 maybe an irrelevant example because it was perhaps intended to be operationalized under wraps before lthe world knowing about it).
Correct me on these counts if I'm wrong, mi americanos .

I know for sure that the T-50 was not displayed pre first flight. IIRC, first public footage of the a/c was released as a part of the first flight montage, and AFTER the first flight. Any pre flight footage that was released subsequently (factory floor and assembly shots), was just that: a bunch of releases after the fact.

Now showing pre-first flight pictures was bound to create immense anticipation for the first flight, esp. amongst Chinese aircraft enthusiasts and patriotic adolescents. Might I dare say, even trigger an exodus of the same from all over the country to Chengdu, with their gadgets, hoping to get a clip & shot or two of their pride in flight.

Common sense dictates that this would be exponentially more difficult to contain in terms of both securing the area and securing the internet release of anything that got by.

Now this becomes all the more sensitive, since it is the first flight, and anything untoward/unplanned caught on camera could and by all probability try to get out into the unstoppable web. And that would be the end of it. The mockery would know no bounds.. both professional and childish in nature.

So one stops to think: considering all of the above, it would be unwise to show this aircraft off before its first flight. Its just too risky.. and the Chinese (CPP) are not known for taking risks (Again Shenzhou being a prime example).

Unless:

(1) The Chinese are extremely confident of either their ability to conduct a visibly flawless first flight and/or their ability to control release of footage of the same. This seems highly risky in booth accounts and I would be surprised if this is the case. A raw way to prove this right would be to release videos of a first flight within this fortnight at the most. Weather cannot be the cause for delay that long if a flight was indeed intended and it cannot be delayed more than that as first flights are the crucial stepping stones for continuing the development of the aircraft along a result based recursive approach, while other preplanned development continues. As such, if initially intended, its not efficient to delay first flight for too long.

(2)This aircraft has already flown in secret. Again this is not entirely improbable, and an indication of this would also be released footage of first flight within a fortnight. I would in fact lean toward this scenario more than (1) above, if indeed we see a first flight in the coming days.

(3)The Conspiracy Theory: Yes ATS, I'm playing the conspiarcy angle here as well .
Maybe the aircraft was never intended for an imminent first flight around now. Maybe the release was planned just in time to : mock Mr Gates statements on 'China being a decade or two away from fielding effective numbers of operational 5th gen aircraft, put the India-Russia FGFA partenership in perspective' etc etc.. amongst other strategic reasons.
Maybe they need to work out the details of the engine.. WS-10a or AL-31F or WS-10x or whatever.. Its very obvious that the Russians will not provide any help with the 117S unless the Chinese have already got their hands on that. And any siphoned info on the F-35 will be grossly under-powering for an a/c of this size.
Dare I say, much to the chagrin of many respected on this forum , that the nose and the inlet chines seem very very F-35 esque?

Anyways... (3) goes out of the window if we see flight footage within a fortnight.

As such I am very eager to see footage of the full thrust taxi tests and the nose up tests as well. They serve as indicators on whether the aircraft is suitable for flight or not as yet. I saw a poor picture of a nose up and a a inconclusive short clip of the a/c deploying the drogue chute and seemingly low ground speeds (and as such inconclusive IMO).
First flights can be months after taxi tests or days after even. Depends on the test plan and the designers' confidence.

The weather forecast for yesterday was visibility down to 2 miles with haze/fog/smog. You can see poor visibility from the images on the 7th. Chinese enthusiasts also noted that a J-11 fighter (Su-27 Flanker) was up to keep the airspace clear during the airspace closure.

I have met reports of favorable conditions for the 7th (or maybe it was the 6th)??
Anyways.. its all hearsay now.. Lets wait to see if we see a flight in the coming days or not.

On a related note, I also read somewhere that an editor of a Hong Kong based Military weekly had said that he was informed by Military officials that a flight was scheduled for Thursday. I think that is the only form of indirect recognition I have seem from the Chinese establishment that this even exists!

On a separate note,
No thoughts on this thread by any yet on the operational envelope and sectors this may be deployed in? At a glance it looks like a deep interdiction strike fighter intended to take on a heavy anti surface payload and fuel to match. While I don't think it can reach CONUS without a refuel or few, Kadena and other establishments (even Guam) seem to be plausible. CBGs too maybe?
But what is of more interest to me is its apparent appropriateness for deep interdiction strike missions into India or even Russia, the former especially weak in ground based air defense and tracking. Hello now

Originally posted by Daedalus3
(2)This aircraft has already flown in secret. Again this is not entirely improbable, and an indication of this would also be released footage of first flight within a fortnight. I would in fact lean toward this scenario more than (1) above, if indeed we see a first flight in the coming days.

Apologies to our more conspiracy-oriented colleagues, but I would have to concur with Daedalus that this, if in fact a first flight is seen in the near future, is the most likely of scenarios. Even if no first flight is forthcoming on the public airwaves I would still be tempted to suggest that the aircraft has seen flight under more secretive circumstances. To suggest that the Chinese are incapable of hiding such an event is a gross underestimation of an administration which so recently and so effectively hid the J-10 aircraft from even the most prying of eyes. Thumbs up for a well-thought out post.

One thing I'd like to ask the community is what of the new WoShan-10 engine? Supposedly the Chinese have working models producing 126kN (original), 132 kN (WS-10A), 136 kN with asymmetric TVC (WS-10B), and are working on a 155kN (WS-10G). Personally I am suspicious that the Chinese would be able to create such a large-thrust engine at the same efficiency of space and fuel as either American or Russian companies. The most modern engines I know of produce 146 kN (Saturn 117S) and 160 kN (P&W F119). To my knowledge the Chinese jet engine production is relatively immature compared to the two others, and while the Chinese are no doubt good at... Hmm... Assimilating information from other products it seems strange to me that they should be able to so quickly catch up with the most modern companies.

Thus, I am inclined to think that there will be some sacrifice that the engine will have to make in order to produce such a large thrust. Since there are those who know better than I about this sort of thing, I ask: will the engine simply be "as good" as every other modern engine or will there be some loss in service life, fuel efficiency, or size efficiency (or other unit) to give the WS-10G the extra thrust?