Jesus (Yeshua) was a Jew, who died for a purpose..

I don't want to RAISE the roof here, regading a type of spiritual controversy, or maybe I do.. (shrugs)

But here's the thing, see: Jesus was a Jew. His "frame" of reference, was that of a Jew, even a Jewish Rabbi, in whom no one found fault, who died, relative to the sin and sorrow and sufferings of the world, not to condemn, but so that through him, the world might be saved. But there's more! (but wait, there's more). Jesus, from within his own frame, as a Jewish person, taught about, and then stood his ground within his own frame of reference, which did not lose it's integrity ie: he neither ran, nor fought back (in the traditional sense) and this frame of reference was simply that of the highest law and the teachings of the prophets of the Torah - love God above all, and neighbor, as self.

I suspect that he had access to the Eastern traditions, given his subtle reframe regarding issues of love of neighbor as self (see Parable of the Good Samaritan), but for all I know, the Torah was sufficient for him to gain access to the whole depth and breadth of spiritual life and spiritual tradition, and understanding.

Love, in the face of suffering, willing to carry the suffering and sorrows of the error of humanity, upright, just, merciful. Strange...

What is strange is the apparent, no make that obvious, hijacking of Jesus by modern Christendom, for an exclusive agenda, on the one hand, and on the other, his rejection by the Jews, his own people, for what he was, for who he was, and what he stood for, and died for, seemingly at any and all cost - will to go the whole distance, for the one lost sheep.

He was crucified between the cross of two thieves, according to the story. Could it not be said then, that to the degree to which he was misunderstood, that he remains in that same precarious predicament today, God forbid! Of course, we as Christians understand, that the timeless, ageless, and spaceless spirit of God is unchanging, and that therefore in his triumph, Jesus is still alive (in form or another, even AS the spirit fo the eternal Godhead or integrated into it's apex), and thus, there is no concern in that regard - the only question remaining, perhaps, the extent to which all or most people, are mistaken about this matter of Jesus and his cross, as an expression of the law, and the prophets.

The tree of life itself, misinderstood, rejected, and walked away from, in pursuit of the knowledge, of the tree of the duality of good and evil (man standing in judgement, instead of God who is a God of love, where the heart of the law is mercy, not sacrifice)...abandoned as of no value, or no worth, when all the while it's true meaning and significance remains, undone in eternity, just waiting for understanding, for grokking, or eating and drinking of most fully, in konionia, or intimate mutual active creative joyful participation, so that the spirit of the living God might consumate in a co-mingling, with the spirit of man, open and available to one and all, as an invitation, for still further intimate participation and mutual exploration, forever.

It has been said that the greatest challenge posed by Christ, to the human being, to the lowly sinner, where all have fallen short of the glory of God, whether purely by the law and ritual, if a Jew, or having nothing but ignorance, as a Gentile - is that of being, by its very nature, a gift of incaculable value, for which we did nothing to either earn or deserve, and therefore cannot access by either our own works, or our own righteousness, lest we have something to brag about, and then fall in the cracks of our flaws and our shortcomings - processed if you will, as a work in progress until perfected. We cannot handle, even that much, because we understand, once given full consideration, and fully investigated free from any sort of contempt, prior to investigation, that we shall be troubled, and then even astonished, as the sheer magnitude of our own ignorance, and our own stupidity, for failing to recognize and understand something both so complex on the one hand, and yet so simple, on another.

Someone once said "I'll give my right arm, for the simplicity, on the far side of complexity", but he was lying. He isn't even will to give it his due process of consideration, let alone sacrificing a part of his very body and life!

And so the Great Work remains, the tree of the duality of good and evil, uprooted, and replaced with the tree of eternal life.

Guarded by the Christian "church" (which was supposed to mean, to call out from, as if from a frame of reference or a perspective, POV, paradigm whatever), and rejected everywhere else.

But for he who REALLY believes, who groks it, and understands it, he then cannot HELP but be moved by it, and to begin, however fast or slowly, to be enveloped in it, and therefore eventually dissolved, not unlike an alchemical reaction, in it's crucible of love, eventually coming to integrate it's true meaning and significance, and recogizing in his own innermost being, the very best part of his own true self, now a pearl in formation in the heavenly gate to the City of God.


I feel like singing Amazing Grace! Seriously.

How is this possible? What a marvel, incredulous, but credible, far out, and seemingly available to ridicule, and yet, in and of itself, impervious to criticism, without error.

It still poses the same challenge, today, that it did then - to BOTH Jew AND Gentile alike, as well as Muslim, who alone seems to accept Jesus, if only as a self realized or self actualized human being or prophet of some kind but nevertheless "in the family" at the very least, although neither does he understand, given what Jesus said, and ultimately, did, the Great Work he performed there on Golgotha.

Having become a bit of a Christian mystic or philosophically and scientifically minded theologian of sorts - even though I was once completely and utterly ignorant (Amazing Grace comes back on..) um, I just simply cannot fathom, the degree of misunderstanding, and outrage mockery and OUTRAGE, in relation to this issue, this ransom, this immaculate love, and infinitely generous bhakti (devoted love in mutuality or communion) of the ultimate FRAME of reference, rendered for the sake of the highest expression of the law and the prophets, and therefore within the context, of Judaism, even mystic or Orthodox Judaism (Essenes).

"I have only one commandment: Love, as I have loved you."

It's the same thing, the same expression, of East and West, of Islam and Judaism. Jesus Christ is himself, in his spirit of love, and eternal life, the very bridge over or the keystone in the royal arch under which, humanity will some day pass through, into everlasting freedom, joy, mutuality, and creativity.

I'll go first, really I don't mind.

And I point to him, and am simply called through his love to try to serve, as I am served, love as I am loved, forgive as I am forgiven, sent, as he was sent.

"As my father sent me, even so send I you."

Absolute simplicity, in the midst of the absolute uncertainty of existence, that's what it is and signifies for me, although I am only just beginning to ah "steep" with it (to use a tea analogy) - the very alpha and omega of existence, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Welcome home.

You are fully loved and fully accepted.

Hugs, my brothers and sisters, in the very name and person and spirit of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Hard to know where to start here. It is a compelling story that has a certain pull to it. In the interests of simplicity, which you espouse, I guess the one question I have to ask Christians such as yourself is:

How do you know?

I'm not trying to mock you here. It's just that these events happened a couple thousand years ago, yet present day Christians seem to feel they KNOW, without a doubt, not only what happened, but that it is divine truth. But you were born just yesterday. Who told you all this? I have a cousin who cannot understand why anyone would not be a Christian. My question to him is, who told you all this stuff? Well, his mother, who married a minister, told him. She did not get it from her parents (my grandparents) but converted. Truth tell, her 'husband' 'ministered' to her and wound up marrying her. They had my cousin, then divorced.

I've heard that some people have personal experiences, kind of a "on the road to Damascus" type of thing and that is what convince dthem, but most I know seem not to have had such a strong personal happening like that. But the basic, simple question, is, How do you know any of what you say is true?

jesus was murdered by the establishment of that time, because he wanted PEACE.

also, jesus wanted to bring the worship of god to EVERYONE, but the chozen were racist, and thought only 'they' were 'chosen' by god to be able to worship 'him.'

i consider jesus a great man, because he fought back against the elitists of his day. ghandi, mlk, even john lennon to a degree, all spoke of peace, and they were all killed because of it.

there are many more, but im in a rush, and i cannot think of who else was killed because in the chozen ruled society, peace and equality are considered 'whacky' and 'eccentric.'

read the protokols of xion, they have been around since before jesus. these guys have been planning world domination since soloman thought he controled demons with some magical ring.

jesus fought back against the protokols.
as do i.

Funny how so many seem to know what Jesus was, while completely failing to see him for what he is and will be for all eternity.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You are wrong for one very obvious reason..

If Jesus was trully the son of God then he had NO religion, Jewish or otherwise..

HE would BE religion itself..
HE would know the truth..

Religion is the worship of a God..Jesus, whatever...

Therefore Jesus would live with the truth, not any tarnished religion..

reply to post by dantanna


The Protocols of Zion is a fake. Just look here. The article is well documented I don't think the question here is whether Jesus fought the establishment. The story suggests that he did. I can accept that part of the story easily, but that doesn't make up a religion. Most of us don't worship MLK or John Lennon.

The real question here is how anyone knows he is "divine" and "died to save us all."

reply to post by schuyler


I know by the frame of reference and testing it against everything I know and have learned, the very best of the best, and it holds water.

If you hang around something or some one, you can tell, first you test its authenticity, then it's character, you investigate the spirit of it, the logos. You could then pivot into psychology, modern science, whatever, philosphy, etc., and look around, at your own body, others, the world, meditate, and seek the one within (only to find there is no such one per se, not the finding of one), and so there's a whole cumulative validation, through the use of reason, you try it on, as they say, for real, and see - you put it to the test, at least give it that much, but first you have to have a mediative, contemplative mindset for it. Forgive me, don't take this the wrong way but what I'm talking about, ironically, isn't "made" for the Western mind, and the American mind in particular. Your frame prohibits the very type of testing and contemplative effort needed to KNOW. To have awareness of, understanding, gnosis.

I am not trying to convert anyone here, and might not even recommend church, although community is absolutely essential - it's a frame of reference, that's all, something worthy of exploration, like my studing of the Bhagavad Gita for example, which no one has a problem with btw - but if the frame works, if it stands up under open minded scrutiny and analysis, and if it then functions, in our own life, where principals must be proven right by their application, why then this would represent a rather prescious gift, more for the taking and owning (personal) even, at least at first, rather than giving or trying to convert anyone or everyone, which is what some perhaps THINK that's what I'm doing right now, but that's not it.

I simply cannot grow into this thing, alone.

That's my problem, no friends in, who are having this kind of epiphany, and so I'm putting my OWN knowing of, to the test, even here on these boards, not to try to make you think as I do, but only to hold out this frame, this map of reality, for further testing still..

My activity is also apparent, self evident, right?

And of what use is this whole Jesus business if it cannot be effectively communicated in the first place.

So I"m putting it out there, not for ridicule or to provoke some American highschoolers ire - but to willingly subject my new understandings or grokkings for careful, and well weighted scrutiny.

These are just words on a screen you say?

"Do you think that's just AIR you're breathing?!" (said, like Morpheus) JK!

We all know there's more to our thoughts processes and language than just meaningless nonsense, that's already established.

It's prior happiness. Homour, joy, and the willingness to make the other's sufferings, our own, and there again we encounter still more of the spirit and the gnosis or KNOWING, of Jesus Christ, the person of God, through the spirits own sympathetic, harmonious connection, with us, as human beings!!! There's the missing Jesus link if you will, it's us, you and me, for now just me it would appear, how lonely..

No worries, as they say here in BC.

Love only.

"Love, and do as you will."
~ St. Augustine

reply to post by backinblack


You'r right that he would have transcended that frame, and gone straight for the gusto, I'd have to agree with that.

My only problem is, I would never have heard of him or any of this stuff, had it not been for the Bible, and Jesus started out at least, from that frame, then, walked out of it - I agree.

reply to post by dantanna


And as do I. How do we know Christ is what the Bible says he is. I start with knowing full well there must be a God
.If there is a God he must be powerful enough to to get a communicado to us. That stands by reason alone. Finding that communication shouldn't be hard. It would stand out from anything known to man. Well the Bible fits that bill one hundred times over. Gods word can't have a bunch of crap in it so, you can take it from there.

STAR FLAG

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by backinblack

 

You'r right that he would have transcended that frame, and gone straight for the gusto, I'd have to agree with that.

My only problem is, I would never have heard of him or any of this stuff, had it not been for the Bible, and Jesus started out at least, from that frame, then, walked out of it - I agree.

That's the dilema we face..
How much of the Bible is true given it was written by man.
How much has been altered over time to suit an agenda?

What saddens me, in a tiny way (not a big complaint) is

why a good thread start up, and a lively discussion, doesn't get a single flag or star, as if this is an embarassment, the OP.

ya know..?

Maybe it's me, and people are getting sick of reading my posts or something, THAT I can handle, but not the revulsion from something so kind, loving (no I don't mean ME, but what I talk about).

what's wrong with us still.. is what I'm asking here, what's wrong with our frames of reference, that this one is the one that we cannot accept, or even begin to enterain, without talking and arguing ALL ABOUT IT, but never really attemping to grok it at all, and very little mutual understanding, just an argument about "religion", why must you always do that ATS people I don't understand..?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I gave you a S&F, not because I fully agree with your OP but because it does open a good debate..
And Merry Xmas,

reply to post by backinblack


Ah, no, that's NOT the dillema posed, not at all, not if we're talking about frames of reference here we're not, although I cannot say were your standing precisely, maybe you already always live in the holy of holies or something..?

You've misunderstood the point.

Your just trying to throw it ALL out, including the frame I presented, if any mythologizing or inaccuracy or indeterminacy is detected, and I'm saying that doesn't work, and why would you even want to try..?

I am asking only for some understanding here, not mere theorizing or talking strictly ABOUT, all the angry hoards are I'm sure already on their way (i can almost feel the ground shaking even now!).

Pearls on the road! Pearls on the road! Everyone, trample them underfoot if you can at any and all cost!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
What saddens me, in a tiny way (not a big complaint) is

why a good thread start up, and a lively discussion, doesn't get a single flag or star, as if this is an embarassment, the OP.

ya know..?

Maybe it's me, and people are getting sick of reading my posts or something, THAT I can handle, but not the revulsion from something so kind, loving (no I don't mean ME, but what I talk about).

Are you fishing for stars and flags? By starting a Jesus-is-nifty thread on a conspiracy site? If that's what you're after I'll go ahead and give them to you even though I disagree with your convoluted interpretation of the Jesus myth.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I gave you a S&F, not because I fully agree with your OP but because it does open a good debate..
And Merry Xmas,

Yeah man, you too!

Love and liberty my friend, into 2011 and beyond!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I love any thread that gives me the chance to EMBARASS myself with Christ.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I'm not intentionally trying to be difficult, but those words don't hold any meaning for me. I read them, and I say, "How do you know?" To me, you're not answering the most basic question of all.

PS. I'm serious here. I really hope this does not degenerate into the usual anti-Christioan rant fest.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Ah, no that wasn't it, just dismay, is all.

You're welcome to discuss btw... whatever points, as you wish, we're all free, this wasn't a "jesus is nifty" thread though... that's not neccessary, you don't have to go there. It's all good, no worries.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Tradition you and I have been round and round. This is conspiracy site? Ok I give you that. What forum is the man in though pard? Are you trying to d-rail?


Shuyler I think I posted a pretty fair answer to that for you.

reply to post by schuyler


All I'm saying is that it's the only thing that makes any sense, when I carve everthing else away that is irrational and makes no sense. I can't prove my gnosis to you, except over time, in accordance with my activity, and with every single bit of information presented, all the way along, since I'm pretty consistent. I KNOW, personally, having done the research and having tested it all out myself, from a whole host of angles and perspectives, but I ought not have to make that whole argument, since the essential ingrediants were already made available in the OP.

No worries, it's all good, I'm not hurt in any way, and no one can be responsible for anther persons activity or conduct, arising from their thinking and POV or from whatever they've learned or haven't looked at yet, whatever.