Concerning Bill Schnoebelen

reply to post by kallisti36


I guess we shouldn't talk about the virgin birth, or being resurrected from the dead either, or the christian reference to the holy trinity, which has its roots buried in history from much more ancient pagan rituals?? Please. The Holy Bible as we know it today was later translations of much earlier creation stories that involved many deities. The great deluge for example, Adam and Eve, the book of Moses, are all examples of these types of stories. Christianity in general could even be labeled as slightly pagan as it sits in the world right now. Many christians around the world don't even pray to christ, they pray to saints and patron saints, and Mary, case and point this list HERE.

Theres over 7200 saints that people may pray to within the umbrella of christianity, some orthodox, some modern. If theres that many other accepted patrons that followers may pray to other than God, would that not be considered pagan? With that many patrons even the traditional polytheistic religions of antiquity have a hard time equalling the same number of deities.

All of christianity celebrates Christmas 4 days after the solstice of winter! Which has always represented a period of rebirth and renewal among, you guessed it, pagans. Why would christian religious leaders choose this period of time as the birthday of christ when his actual birth date is presumably much sooner than the solstice. The pine trees that we pay 35 bucks for at home depot every December is a direct throw back to pagan yule symbolism. This is supposed to be the most important christian holiday, than why honor it in such a pagan way?

The influences are there to be seen, it's just a matter of looking.

Originally posted by kallisti36
Ya'hshuah was speaking figuratively of the coming vicarious atonement for sins. I'm not so sure if the RCC doctrine of Transubstantiation is without Biblical support however. Still, it seems unnecessary to re-sacrifice Ya'hshuah every mass.

Regardless of it's necessity millions of people still practice it every Sunday. Does that mean all of them are wrong and you are right?

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
reply to post by kallisti36

 

I guess we shouldn't talk about the virgin birth, or being resurrected from the dead either, or the christian reference to the holy trinity, which has its roots buried in history from much more ancient pagan rituals?? Please. The Holy Bible as we know it today was later translations of much earlier creation stories that involved many deities. The great deluge for example, Adam and Eve, the book of Moses, are all examples of these types of stories. Christianity in general could even be labeled as slightly pagan as it sits in the world right now. Many christians around the world don't even pray to christ, they pray to saints and patron saints, and Mary, case and point this list HERE.

Theres over 7200 saints that people may pray to within the umbrella of christianity, some orthodox, some modern. If theres that many other accepted patrons that followers may pray to other than God, would that not be considered pagan? With that many patrons even the traditional polytheistic religions of antiquity have a hard time equalling the same number of deities.

All of christianity celebrates Christmas 4 days after the solstice of winter! Which has always represented a period of rebirth and renewal among, you guessed it, pagans. Why would christian religious leaders choose this period of time as the birthday of christ when his actual birth date is presumably much sooner than the solstice. The pine trees that we pay 35 bucks for at home depot every December is a direct throw back to pagan yule symbolism. This is supposed to be the most important christian holiday, than why honor it in such a pagan way?

The influences are there to be seen, it's just a matter of looking.

Ok, most trinity structures are based on the obvious: Man+Woman=Baby, this is the case for the Babylonian trinity so we can toss that one out. Then there is the supposed "trinity" in Hinduism (actually 4) of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva which is Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer. Never mind the fact that all of these aspects are contradictory in nature, but they all make up the Hindu 'godhead' Brahman so technically this is Quatrine god. The Christian trinity is Father, Son, Holy Spirit all equal, all working in harmony, and all one.

Anyways, as far as paganism in Freemasonry, I'm saying this is only a reason to avoid it if you are Christian. If you happen to be Pagan or anything else, great, go for it. Christians are not supposed to serve two masters, however.

reply to post by kallisti36



I just finished reading 2 books by William Schnoebelen, roughly two months ago, entitled Masonry – Beyond The Light and Lucifer Dethroned. I believe in Jesus, so I found both books pretty tough reading and prier to reading it, I knew absolutely nothing of the occult, Satanism or Masonry. One of my Christian friends even suggested I shouldn’t read the books, because they focus too much on the occult.

One thing that really struck me while I was reading those books, was Schnoebelen’s apparent detachment from one extreme environment\mental state, too another. I mean, I just don’t know how he (or anyone else for that matter) was able, to do graphic satanic rituals one day, followed by praying, preaching, receiving communion etc the next. That was one of the major between the lines aspects of his story, which made me question it.

Just my thoughts...


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by kallisti36

 

I just finished reading 2 books by William Schnoebelen, roughly two months ago, entitled Masonry – Beyond The Light and Lucifer Dethroned. I believe in Jesus, so I found both books pretty tough reading and prier to reading it, I knew absolutely nothing of the occult, Satanism or Masonry. One of my Christian friends even suggested I shouldn’t read the books, because they focus too much on the occult.

One thing that really struck me while I was reading those books, was Schnoebelen’s apparent detachment from one extreme environment\mental state, too another. I mean, I just don’t know how he (or anyone else for that matter) was able, to do graphic satanic rituals one day, followed by praying, preaching, receiving communion etc the next. That was one of the major between the lines aspects of his story, which made me question it.

Just my thoughts...


- JC

He was a really devout Catholic growing up, so it's not as if he didn't have anything to fall back on. I know what you mean though, he's very calm and collected about it, though he's probably told the story dozens if not hundreds of times.

I can also see why your Christian friend told you not to read his books. I got really interested in the occult by watching his videos a couple of years ago. I never practiced, mind you, but I read a good deal. I suppose you could justify studying it with the moniker "know thy enemy", but there's a powerful itch to learn more and I've barely scratched the surface.

By the way, how is Lucifer Dethroned? I considered buying it, despite the unlikelyness of the story I thought it would be entertaining. Is it worth the 15$?

Okay, here is the first (*cough*) clue that this Bill character isn't on the up-and-up. He claims that he was invited to join The Rite of Memphis-Misraïm. Now, here is the catch. Do some research. Read up on your Masonic history. Consult some reputable authorities. You will rapidly find that 1) The Rite of Memphis-Misraïm was at one point one of the many systems of "high degree" Freemasonry floating around, but it long, long ago lost out to the Scottish Rite and would today be considered an irregular and clandestine (two very ugly words in Masonry) organization in every single jurisdiction of which I am aware. There are something like 150 organizations for which you may become eligible once you are a Master Mason -- The Rite of Memphis-Misraïm is not one of them. 2) The specific group that is referenced in the only place I could find a place I could track down the The Rite of Memphis-Misraïm in Bill's stuff is, I suspect, an attempt to use a cool historical name to trick people into spending money. It isn't Freemasonry. It isn't even a particularly good scam, although I'm confident that for what they charge, you can probably get a very pretty certificate of membership.

So -- a significant part of Schnoebelen's alleged Masonic experience is tainted by his involvement in a spurious, scammy, unrecognized, illicit, and probably half-baked pseudo-Masonry. This would be like me attending services at the Westboro Baptist Church (look it up) and then claiming to be an expert on Christianity in some non-Christian nation or another and telling everyone what Christians are like based on my experience with Fred Phelps and his ilk.

It should come as no surprise whatsoever that Schnoebelen got caught in some pseudo-Masonic scam. Come on, the man's life history proves he is credulous in the extreme, wants to belong so deeply he'll join anything, and is willing to engage in heavy rationalization in order to maintain his conflicting memberships. I suspect the scammers saw him as an irresistible opportunity wrapped in candy-coated money.

reply to post by driley


He did refer to it as 'Esoteric' masonry, so I suppose he was making a distinction between Memphis-Misraim, and mainstream Masonry. So all Masons here are in agreement that this Rite is unorthodox Masonry and could have baby eating rituals as far as we know? Or, like you suggested it could be a scam for psuedo-satanists on power-trips. We need to get someone involved with Memphis-Misraim into this thread. All of the worst experiences he had with Masonry were with this group.

Originally posted by kallisti36
The Masonic (and Catholic) use of the Egyptian obelisk is a Pagan symbol of ressurection.

There is no Masonic use of the obelisk in the Blue Lodge degrees and it only appears once in a very minor capacity in a Scottish Rite degree. The Sprig of Accacia is used to represent the immortality of the soul.

reply to post by kallisti36


there is a member here who is involved in Memphis Misraim and he has commented on this thread, but I will not say who he is. if he wants to, he will. I have all ideas, it teaches very similar lessons that the Scottish rite does, and while I have no direct knowledge of it, I think it would be all over the news if they ate babies and the like. Me slamming that organization is a lot like non masons slamming masonry, they don't know so they make stuff up. I don't know, so I will not pretend to know.

But seeing as how Bill embellishes his stories so much, it would be very hard to take his word on anything.
here is a start on Memphis Misraim

reply to post by kallisti36


So then, like so many anti-masons and all around bigots in general, you adopt a holy-than-thou attitude against, well, anything that isn't confined to the very narrow view you express upon yourself? Hardly surprising.

So what if Freemasonry, or even the Catholic Church uses "pagan" symbolism? Why the hell would it matter? Maybe I'm a pagan, does that change who I am? I certainly don't believe in the evilness you profess, but again I spose its all a matter of opinion... simply saying, your views won't be changed because you don't want them to.. and that is sad.

reply to post by kallisti36

Originally posted by Kallisti36
By the way, how is Lucifer Dethroned? I considered buying it, despite the unlikelyness of the story I thought it would be entertaining. Is it worth the 15$?

It is a very entertaining book, not so much for its talk about various aspects on forms of satanism and numerous other occults, but more for its real life supernatural elements, that Schnoebelen experienced throughout his journey.

Another good aspect of the book, is where he talks about the slightly lesser forms of satanism, which can gain a hold of a young persons life and the signs to look out for, in order to help them. He also does a lot of categorizing of satanism, in order to give people a better understanding of it and points out that many people in it, are just victims, most of whom are not even aware of the bigger picture.


- JC

reply to post by network dude


Thanks for the info. I'm just trying to figure out once and for all if this guy is telling the truth, half the truth, or downright lying. I'm not content with discounting just him because his claims are so out there. I got a bit excited when I heard Memphis-Misraim was "clandestine" rite, I was thinking "the plot thickens!" If there is someone from that rite they should clear this up.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by kallisti36

 

So then, like so many anti-masons and all around bigots in general, you adopt a holy-than-thou attitude against, well, anything that isn't confined to the very narrow view you express upon yourself? Hardly surprising.

So what if Freemasonry, or even the Catholic Church uses "pagan" symbolism? Why the hell would it matter? Maybe I'm a pagan, does that change who I am? I certainly don't believe in the evilness you profess, but again I spose its all a matter of opinion... simply saying, your views won't be changed because you don't want them to.. and that is sad.

As I said, I am a Christian. We are not supposed to yoke ourselves with paganism. If you are a Pagan, then you have no such restrictions, so nothing about Masonry would be wrong (that is if Paganism is all there is). If I were Orthodox Jewish and Freemasonry involved eating alot of bacon, I would suggest that other Orthodox Jews to not be Masons or atleast mind the bacon. As long as Masonry isn't tied to some elite cabal bent on world domination or Satan worship, then I don't really see a problem aside from ties to Paganism.

reply to post by kallisti36

As I said, I am a Christian. We are not supposed to yoke ourselves with paganism.

Why not? I assume from your posting habits that your some denomination of American-Protestant. Protestantism took Catholic beliefs and mostly took the "Church" out of the religion .. but kept everything else.. including all that paganism. Don't forget the Holy Bible is a Roman creation, and all the stories told inside were picked by Romans. The entire foundation of ANY Christian religion outside of the Greek Orthodox and perhaps a few other Orthodox churches is a composite of Roman/Pagan/etc religion.

Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.. limiting yourself to one religions views does your self a disservice, as there are many other teachings that are outside the realm of the Christina dogma.. you may not have to accept other God's in doing so, but there is nothing wrong with going to a Buddhist temple and indulging in it's teachings.. as their is nothing wrong with attending a Mosque and hearing the poetry of the Quron.. or studying the Gods of the Hindu, which predate the Monotheistic gods by a considerable amount of time..

You can do this, while indulging in all that "Paganism" and still remain, at heart and soul, a Christian.

So why then can't a Christian be a Mason, use the philosophical tools of Masonry to further his quest on being a good Christian? I suppose that would come down to what makes a "good" christian.. is a good Christian a man like you, you publicly insults and condemns the paths others have chosen just because they are different than his own ideologies? I hardly think so.. Or is it a man who can use different religions, philosophies and ideologies to make himself a good person, through actions and belief, to be an example.. or do good men only count if they subscribe to a specific denomination of a specific religion who bows only to one deity?

reply to post by Rockpuck


I suppose you have a point there, as long as you don't take it to heart you aren't being idolatrous. I can appreciate mythology and other religions, I just wouldn't practice non-Christian rituals.

Actually, I would consider myself a reformed/custom Eastern Orthodox. I think the Orthodox Church has a better claim to Apostolic succession than the RCC, but I have issues with the veneration of icons so I don't do it. I also, much like the Jews and Protestants don't have much use for the Apocrypha. However, unlike nearly all denominations except Ethiopian Orthodox, I believe Enoch and Jubilees to be genuine scripture (and perhaps 2Esdras).

I have acquired Memphis-Misraim degrees, although I'm not as actively involved in the thing as I once was. I sort of made a decision not to talk about it on ATS for a variety of reasons but I'll drop a few comments. First of all, MM is no longer recognized as orthodox by most mainstream lodges, although it once was. There are several competing organizations claiming to represent the legitimate and unbroken continuation of the MM rite. There are a number of charlatans peddling corrupt or totally invented versions as well. I believe a lot of Crowley's OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis) makes use of some bowlderized, distorted concepts from MM, among other soruces.

I'm not going to get into the doctrine or practices of MM but I will say this: I haven't heard anything from Schnoebelen to suggest he has any in-depth or profound knowledge of the tradition as formulted by Cagliostro (right of Misraim), de Nègre (rite of Memphis), or the Garabaldi synthesis of the two. He just mentions the rite in a name-dropping way, which is suspicious.

Also, I have never come across anything to suggest an "evil" or "Satanic" orientation to MM. This characterization of the rite strikes me as the same sort of hysterical fearmongering so often directed against all forms of Freemasonry. Because MM places a great premium on secrecy and because the rite itself is now becoming increasingly unmoored from tradition and in dispute anyway, this makes it an even easier target for smearing.

If you listen to the way he describes his supposed hierarchy of evil, he places MM within a kind of system that involves OTO and groups like the Palladium, Order of the Trapezoid, etc. This seems nonsensical at best to me, to put it charitably, because 1) MM is much older than the other two; 2) MM is masonic rather than "Crowlean" or "LeVeyan" in orientation, and 3) these organizations don't "follow each other" in some hierarchical sense...you can enter any one of them on their own terms.

My 2 cents.

reply to post by silent thunder


thanks for commenting and your insight is very much appreciated. Is MM like regular masonry in that there are monthly meetings, charitable events, and things of that nature?

In reading the comments and the re-reading my own statement, I feel that I should carefully clarify what I said so that it actually says what I meant.

I based my comments on the RIte of M-M on information provided by Bill regarding the particular group that he joined and some light research on my part. While M-M is not recognized by any mainstream Grand Lodge in the US of which I am aware, I in no way meant to imply that every single organization that presents itself as being an expression of M-M is a charlatan degree mill. I do stand by, however, my assertion that as best as I can tell based on the information provided, my own limited research and my own experience, the particular group Bill appears to have joined looks very much like a degree selling scheme.

reply to post by driley


Which could have thrown in psuedo-satanism for shock and awe?

reply to post by kallisti36


That's what I suspect.

Look, if you want to know what a Masonic meeting is like, go attend one of the many public events held by lodges across the country every year. Depending on the jurisdiction and the lodge, you may be able to attend an installation (at my lodge, we do installations "semi-public" about half the time). I'm sure if you look around, you'll find various ceremonial events you will be permitted to attend.

Nothing in any of the craft degrees (1 -3), Scottish Rite degrees (4-32), or York Rite degrees (Mark Master, Virtual Past Master, Excellent Master, Royal Master, Select Master, Super Excellent Master) that I have taken include anything like the craziness that Bill talks about. Most of these degrees have made extensive references to Hebrew and/or Christian Scripture. All had as themes or topics points that you would feel comfortable making in Sunday School.

It isn't the fault of the Fraternity that Bill ran off and bought a $27 Rolex and now wants to complain that it turned his wrist green.