What do you think aliens want to achieve with us?

StickyG, you just made me get tears in my eyes.

Originally posted by EarthSister
lilblam

Ah. I was just reading some of your other posts as well as these and I see clearly where you are coming from. You think the alien people are demons.

No, I do not. There are infinitely many kinds of "aliens" with infinitely many purposes. Demons are a religious, ignorant name, like "monsters" or "boogie man". I don't demonize or divinate them, I seek to know precisely what they are and why they do what they do, though this at times is very difficult and frustrating, as any such information is extremely difficult to come by, and ascertain the validity of.

You have all your religions mixed up with your worst nightmares. You seem to think that the alien people think just like you think.

False, I don't make any such assumption. I am not religious, that would make me ignorant and in search of "feel good lies" instead of truth. But what I DO seek is the truth, and the truth is that there are an infinitely many kinds of beings who think in infinitely many kinds of ways. The question is, who are the ones interacting with humans NOW and why - and THAT is what I seek to know, OBJECTIVELY.

You're on a permanent tangent, but did you ever consider that God could be greater than you ever even thought, and that creation, however you might define it, is Universal?

Once again, you underestimate my knowledge and understanding of reality, by insinuating that I have not thought as "deeply" as you have about this. My answer is, GOD is all there is. Anything LESS than that is NOT God obviously, though it might pretend to be.

Do you think God made all those stars just for us to look at? Aren't all people children of God?

We ARE God. We ARE the creators, AND the created. You see, you are looking at this through a LINEAR perspective of "CREATION". I look at it through a NON-LINEAR perspective of BEING. Therefore, nothing is ever CREATED from a universal point of view, everything simply IS - though from a limited perspective (like a human perspective), there can be "new creations" etc. This is simply explained: Since you cannot have SOMETHING come out of NOTHING, all that exists never had a beginning. And because infinity is insurpassable and free will exists, all possibilities are already actualized and EXIST in the infinite NOW. It is simply your consciousness that focuses on different events to experience different parts of this infinite existance, or "creation". God wants to experience EVERYTHING, and since there is no LIMIT to everything, this is eternally being represented through US. We are GOD in his quest to know himself, to know ALL THERE IS TO KNOW, and this quest is eternal, since there is no limit to knowledge and what is possible. We are just part of this infinite creation, here to learn about ourselves and about our reality, to have our unique experiences that are all simply part of GOD and his quest to know HIMSELF. The more we know ourselves, the more we understand all there is.

I'm sorry if I'm being a little confusing once again, but it's hard to explain these concepts in such limited things like language. You know how you UNDERSTAND certain things, but when it comes to explaining them to someone else, it might take you hours and u still can't really do it sometimes? Well it's kinda like that. If only we could communicate by thought, it'd make things so much easier

I trust only God like you are assuming I trust alien life, but the aliens are only people like we are people, and not perfect or divine.

Nothing is perfect, and everything is perfect. Perfection is a state without flaws, but FLAWS only exist if you DEFINE them as flaws. If I throw a ball and it hits the wall, was it a PERFECT throw? Well if my intention was to MISS the wall, then the fact that I HIT it is flaw, or an imperfection. So see, it is all about intent. Divine is just a religious connotation, like "demons", EVERYTHING is divine, since everything is part of God. Nothing is "better" than something else, this is SUBJECTIVE. And "aliens" don't have to be "people like us", they CAN be, but they don't have to be. Creation is not LIMITED to your existance, it is infinite, which is what makes it "tick".

You obviously believe that alien people are actually wicked evil spirits or devils, coming all the way here through space in their evil magical merkebas to try to play a biblical trick on humans, to make us think they are really holy beings so they can take advantage of us at any second, at some future time to be determined.

Whoa! All that is OBVIOUS to you for some reason? That is absolutely false, you just made a long list of assumptions in one sentence, that are indeed not true. First, EVIL is subjective - NOTHING is good or evil until someone JUDGES it, and because GOD is all there is, judgement is only made out of ignorance, out of FINITE perception, like ours. There IS service to self vs service to OTHERS, and THAT is objective, and is a choice - there is nothing WRONG with either of the choices, as all of creation is BALANCED and requires EVERY possibility to exist. Devils is another religious connotation, and another fancy word to describe anything religious people think is "evil", though the key word here is THINK, since those "devils" think of themselves as GOOD - and neither is correct of course, as it is subjective.

Another word you used here that is incorrect is that I BELIEVE. No, what I know is what I know, I don't BELIEVE. Belief and ASSUMPTION (as what you made in the above paragraph) is how you lead yourself astray. I cannot answer your question above, whether I believe any of those things, simply because you fail to define what is a "devil" or what is "evil" or "wicked" or what is "holy". All those things are defined differently by different people and cultures, and are subjective. I hope you can see that.

I am not confused, but you are, and that is understandable because of what you have been taught by religion.

Another huge assumption, which is again false. Religion taught me NOTHING, I'm not religious, though I HAVE studied religion to understand how it works and what it DOES teach, so I can understand where religious people are coming from, and what kind of hold this has on them. Religion has its truths (such as "know thyself"), which are hard to discern if one is not seeking truth to begin with. Truth is found from ALL possible sources, and in our world, it is always mixed with half-truths and lies, which one must weed out first, and that takes KNOWLEDGE, PATIENCE, and persistence. Before you can see truth, you must first stop lying to yourself, and we all lie to ourselves because this is the default programming on this planet. Once you KNOW YOURSELF, you begin to see truth in others, and truth in your reality. It is a rather simple concept, that makes far more sense when you actually begin to understand your OWN nature, who you REALLY are, inside this shell of "personality" and other worldly aspects that are NOT part of you.

I don't think or claim to know everything about the aliens or about anything else, but I have a firm grip on reality, spiritual and physical.

No one has a firm grip on reality, period. What is your firm grip NOW, will turn out to be another veil of illusion later. When our perception and awareness rises, our reality changes as well. It is very hard for humans as of now to have a "firm grip" on ANY reality, ESPECIALLY spiritual. However, you can have a clue about some basic principles, some basic understandings, which will be your foundation in your search. This foundation is not easy to establish, and with such huge assumptions as you are now making, you are lacking this foundation. Because the most important PART of this foundation is: STOP ASSUMING. Until you learn to stop believing, assuming, and wishfully thinking, any "firm grip" on any kind of reality that you have will be subjective, it will be just another illusion.

Your concern is appreciated, if that is what this is, but don't worry for me, I know who to pray to. My alien friends are people, not gods. I have my personal reasons for thinking respectfully of them as people and as dedicated professionals. I make my own decisions for myself by my own experiences with them of which I have had hundreds throughout my life and will continue to.

No one says do not respect them, I respect all life and all existance for what it is. However, I do not ignore what it IS, by pretending it's something else. But you do as you wish, all there is is lessons, and you have free will to choose to do as you wish.

I do not decide my opinions of any people by the dictation of any govt body or alien experiencer group or book or religion or fundamental bible thumper, and THANK GOD FOR THAT, aye? That would be prejudiced and the dogmatic strife and war of religions. I choose to be free of that, thank you. If I only listened to so many others like you, and like other kinds of nay-sayers and drag-me-downs and dooms-dayer-end-of-the-worlders I would never have learned as much as I have about alien life.

Or maybe you would have? Maybe you're ignoring the negative possibilities, and effectively concentrating only the part that makes YOU happy? Once again, the universe is perfectly balanced, and if you only concentrate on the YANG, you tend to forget that the YING didn't go anywhere, and will eventually surface, whether you are ready or not. I don't say "listen to me", I say "THINK about it" and come to your own conclusion. But you already have, and that is fine. I speak to everyone who reads this, not just you personally, so I by no means am trying to "change you", that would be selfish of me. Don't forget, as above so below. Our current human reality is a good indication of what is beyond our reality as well, as our consciousness and events are microcosmic reflections of what happens macrocosmically, or universally. Balance is the key word, and if you ignore half of reality, it may eventually creep up on you when you're not looking.

I would not have learned to understand evolution of spirit or the natural relationship between all life and helped so many others too. It's about Earth's time to make open contact between us and other worlds.

ALL is choice. Unless of course your alien friends made that choice for us, which is rather selfish of them.

All the other races have done it, why shouldn't we?

Why SHOULD we? Not ALL races have done it, every possible event DOES exist, and if EVERY race has done it, then there would exist NO races that have NOT done it, which is false - because the POSSIBILITY of not doing it exists. And all that is possible, already IS. If everyone on the planet decided to shoot themselves, would you?

If you feel you have your reasons not to trust any other people in the Universe, fine. Go right ahead and stick by your own beliefs. It makes no difference to me. I have no following and it's not my loss. I work independently to share what I know from my own experience. I don't know what you do in life but you sound like a fine fundamentalist preacher.

I don't preach, I give when asked. Your deceptions asked for truth.

Maybe you even have your own church going.

Of all that I said, what caused you to make the assumption that I'm in ANY WAY religious?

You are free to do that so go do it and leave me out of it. I don�t know why you feel you have to drag all the other life in the Universe into your beliefs too but I guess maybe that makes your church bigger.

You sure you're not projecting on me what you yourself are guilty of? Of both of us, who is expecting the readers to BELIEVE you on your word? And who is encouraging independent thought and research to KNOW instead of BELIEVE?

I do not know what your personal experience with alien may be either but I suspect none. But you are free of me and of anybody to believe whatever you want, for any reason. I will go by my own experiences in life and keep sharing them as best as I can.

lilblam

I was overwhelmed by your intensity and at first responded too defensively. I apologize. I am modifying this post right now.

If you respond to me in the future, please make your posts shorter and more direct wherever possible. I would appreciate that very much if you could. Thank you for your cooperation.

Don't forget, as above so below.

Some things are somewhat alike between some or all races of people and some things are very different or unique from all races, and all the rest of the things are somewhere in between all of them. What we are doing on Earth is absolutely not indicative of what our visiting races are doing here.

All of the advanced races at one time were primitive in their own way and had difficulties, some similar to ours, but not all. Some had war and famine and diseases like us. Some had corrupt govt power like us. They got over it, many with the help of other further advanced races. This is somewhat the same between some races.

But our visiting races are no longer primitive, and we still are. They all know us and each other very well, and we know hardly anything yet.

[edit on 12-7-2004 by EarthSister]

EarthSister: if you've already covered this, im sorry....but, have they given a rough time estimate of when they'll make themselves publicly known?

Not to be the cynic, but isn't it bad enough that everyone tends to be a finger pointer as far as the fact that few actually tend to accept responsibility for their actions no matter how small, that we must continue to offer hypotheticals and subjective conjecture to possibilities that not only cannot be widely proven, (unless the aliens land in a huge global display that we all become quickly aware of) but are
essentially pieced together fragments by imagination? I do not mean to downplay the enthusiasm of ufo and alien buffs, nor deny that anything a person thinks of can be entirely made possible or realized, but to me, is it not conspiracy building to summate all these different notions and concepts and post them collectively on a site which announces almost proudly of its member's denial of ignorance? I guess we all must find use and depth regarding our imaginations. It is okay to imagine all kinds of possibilities, that is what makes great writers and stories, but there is a time and a place for the fictional and the facts. Truth is not found by stumbling around in the darkness. Peace.

I wish that I could believe that what Earthsister says is true about the contrived threat from outer space and the universal benevolence of the aliens visiting here and their benevolent oversight council. Alot of evidence, and I think it's quite alot, points to the fact that something fishy is going on. I have a strong yearning, however, to embrace that both possiblities are possible. Because of what's available as far as evidence is concerned, however, it seems that some, and I hope not all, of our visitors aren't into nice ways of sharing.

I liked Lilblam's rebuttal of his earlier comments as being a rational defense of his opinions. He seemed very detached. Earthsister implied that he might have a (disorder) and asked him to modify his posts so that they were not saying alot without saying anything. Maybe I am not alone here, but I don't think that was very nice. I think he pointed something out very well about Earthsister jumping to conclusions about what a person is really saying. I have noticed Earthsister espouse to alot of people in this forum their need to elevate their values towards her, but did she not just sink down and condescendingly rebuke Lilblam's thoughful post? I think she told him he better change his ways in posting...but I thought she wasn't the kind of person, according to her posts, to do that. Anyway, Earthsister's posts that I read can be quite lengthy in defending herself just like lilblam's was, so how is Earthsister the one to make demands? Earthsister--your reply to lilblam was both condescending, patronizing, and ultimately hypocritical. If you want me to believe what you say, try being nicer to people like lilblam who wasn't being emotional with you. Your response to lilblam's response was a veiled personal attack insinuating he had a problem with himself, but his response never made a personal attack against you...he just defended himself against statements you derived from his earlier statements. He defended the integrity of his statements pretty well, too, I think. By the way, I am not a member of lilblam's non-existent church.

If you have a personal desire to share your opinion with people and have it be well-recieved you should be more conscious of the effect that posts like the one to Lilblam would have on your overall credibility.

Peace

ishivaji

You could be right about how my post came across to lilblam and your description was not my intention. I was overwhelmed by his posts and too defensive in reply. I will modify my post.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Earthsister wake up!!!! don't you get it you are whats on the menu that and a few spare parts I guess if you don't have too many recessives in your gene pool you might be impregnated or implanted with hybrid embryosbut basically you would considered a food source , livestock.

Originally posted by EarthSister
ishivaji

You could be right about how my post came across to lilblam and your description was not my intention. I was overwhelmed by his posts and too defensive in reply. I will modify my post.

Thank you for pointing that out.

My reason for CAPITALIZING certain words, is simply to emphasize those particular words in the context of my sentence. Very often, the meaning of a phrase can be completely altered simply by "accenting" or "emphesizing" a different word. I am simply trying to avoid confusion.

Example: "I did my homework YESTERDAY."

This emphasizes YESTERDAY, which puts emphasis on the TIME (in terms of days) when you did the homework. But, if you say:

"I DID my homework yesterday"

This puts emphasis on the word did, and the TIME is no longer of importance to the sentence. The important fact is that you say you actually DID it, as opposed to NOT doing the homework.

See? This is why I capitalize words. Not an attempt to "yell" at anyone for any reason, that would be rather unproductive and a waste of both our times.
--------------------------------------

But back to the subject. My "arms length" post is really much shorter than it appears, its excessive length is created by the fact that I constantly quote small pieces of your post (which create large spaces in between the typing), and individually reply to them. If you remove all the quotes and put all that I said together, it is probably about as long as some of your posts. But this is besides the point.

I would like to know why it is that you make the assumption, if I'm understanding you correctly, that confrontational and self-serving behavior is PRIMITIVE, and it is limited to low level civilizations like ours. What makes you think that a really advanced civilization cannot be self serving? If you ignore this possibility, aren't you wishfully thinking then? The thing that may be confusing is technological and intellectual advancement vs spiritual and emotional choice. One can be extremely advanced technologically, but CHOOSE to use it for HIS own advantage. Why restrict "aliens" and deny them the CHOICE to be self serving?

Eventually, service to self is limiting, and one needs to learn to get out of this way of existance before one self destructs. This is simply because the energy of a service to self being is directed INWARDS, which means imbalance, he becomes like a mini black hole and eventually implodes from his own energy, at least in theory. Service to OTHERS, on the other hand, expands his energy outwards, and gives it to all who ask, who then in turn reflect and give back to him, which balances the energy. But any being at absolutely ANY level of progress can make ANY choice, if the being is consciously aware of his ability to MAKE this choice. By stating that the being WILL NOT make the choice (as you have by saying some choice is too primitive), is restricting and subjugating FREE WILL, which is not done in a free will reality such as ours. If you do so, you would be ignoring what IS.

First of all, I already pointed out that anybody who is "in charge" in any hierarchy, is already part of a service to self civilization. So being in charge of this sector of space, means that WE are property, we're CONTROLLED. This is what hierarchy means. Anybody who "blocks" any other race from interfering with some planet's existance, is serving only self. It may not be obvious at first (since ALL humans without exception are service to self), but if you think about it, it becomes obvious. The universe welcomes all possibilities, ALL experiences, and to impose a limit by preventing certain possibilities from happening, is self serving!

The choice to serve self can be made as long as there IS a self to serve. If one is a purely spiritual, omnipresent entity, there isn't really a "self" so to speak, you're just consciousness. Service to self beings seek to be physical, in order to experience sensate, they are tempted by physicality and what it "offers". They cannot serve self in a purely spiritual existance, so they manifest physically (through incarnation or any other means that exist). And because the universe is about balance, there is a perfect balance of service to self and service to others in the universe. Ying Yang.

But an example of primitive choices that an entity may outgrow is, experiencing reality in a linear manner. When your consciousness expands beyond our current perception, we begin to experience non-linear reality, free of any constriction of time and space. However, this doesn't mean we cannot CHOOSE to experience reality linearly at least in part, where it suits us. Humans are constantly competing and fighting amongst each other. When our consciousness advances, we have a CHOICE to now fight on a whole other level, to try to dominate and control lesser beings, to grow them in planets perhaps and experiment on them, experiment with reality itself, push it as far as we can. Let's not assume that the "food chain" stops at our current level. There is plenty of evidence to show that we are being programmed and are food for something else, something that has been doing this for as long as humanity can remember. The Bible says "Satan is the ruler of the Earth" (that in itself says nothing, but in context with many many other things, it makes far more sense, though one shouldn't look at this as a literal, religious statement of course. Our negative emotions, our sexual energy, all is being promoted. We are being enticed into conflict, not just with our own families and friends, but on a national and world level. Notice how much violence and how many wars are being promoted on this planet, and HAVE been for so long? Most are due to religion, and where do you suppose religion comes from? How is it that so many parts of the world that used to be out of contact with one another, developed such similar religious beliefs, with such SIMILAR stories (like that of Jesus). Coincidence? Human nature? Or something else? Do you think it is all simply because our leaders are power hungry and psychopathic, so they have nothing better to do? Or maybe our "leaders" have a reason to do what they do, maybe they know something the POPULACE doesn't? Remember how Bush claimed that "God" speaks to him? Who do you think speaks to him?

Why is it that almost any person you ask wants peace, and to just be left alone and the world to be in harmony, and wants safety for himself and his family.. yet.. everyone is constantly in conflict? Who is promoting such propaganda that sets people against other people on account of SUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENTS upon others' RACE and ETHNICITY and NATIONALITY? Who is it that is promoting our DIFFERENCES, instead of underlining what makes us SIMILAR and ONE? Who FEEDS off the conflict on this planet, who BENEFITS?

You can say that our "elite" benefit, the controllers of this world benefit from this because such confrontation and fear mongering like "terrorism threatening the whole damn planet" fuels fear and patriotism, enticing people to fight bloody wars and mass murder each other, which just gives our controllers more power. However, why is it that humanity has never been able to pacify their "leaders", for thousands and thousands of years, humans are herded like sheep by religions, then by other ideologies, which ALL aim to divide us and create emotional, physical, and psychological turmoil on the planet? What of all the stories of "God" coming to people, or angels appearing to people, commanding them to kill or destroy some "unfaithful" people? What about "Satan" and "demons" and people's actual interaction with this phenomena, and in the name of claiming someone is "Satanic" people would annihilate each other.

And how can one ignore UFO's, and abductions, and all this phenomena? All delusions, or is there more to this?

The point is, throughout all of our history, conflict has been promoted. But by whom? Why? When the MAJORITY want peace, why is it that the MINORITY always WIN and use propaganda and temptations/punishments (heaven/hell/prison/rewards) to somehow control the majority's actions? How can this be? After all, we ARE all humans... unless of course, there is something else, another "power" that literally FEEDS on this conflict, on these negative energies. And humanity is some sort of cosmic experiment, and our planet is owned and controlled by certain beings that have always kept us ignorant and their FOOD. There is a LOT more evidence for this, there are certain books written about this phenomena that have been covered up but can be found if you search, people have observed this and experienced these "beings" etc. WIthout knowing WHAT to call them, they are called either "Gods" or "Angels" or "Demons" or anything else your religious propaganda would call it. Either way, wishful thinking doesn't lead one to understanding of objective reality. Vigilance, open mindedness, and observation of what IS and questioning of EVERYTHING does.

So by claiming that the choice to serve self is too primitive for beings of higher consciousness and advancement, would be indeed wishful thinking, and if you pay attention to our reality and the "forces" that influence certain things, you will also see that such an assumption would be not true. There is plenty of evidence that suggests that humans are nothing but puppets, that we are not in control of ourselves, that we're an experiment, and things are now escalating (notice 20th century?) and are leading to a climax, a final confrontation, whatever it may be. To ignore what is happening all around you, and WITHIN yourself in your own nature, is to ignore reality, right? The safest approach I'd say is to not make ANY assumption, and simply seek to understand the truth as it is. If you make an assumption, you are creating a false truth in your mind, by pretending something is true when you truly do not know.

I hope this helps

Oh and yes, this was probably an actual arm's length post. Guilty as charged.

-Mike

EDIT: But don't think that I'm suggesting that the aliens are "demons" in any sense of the word. What I'm suggesting is the opposite, that the whole IDEA of "demons" is based on misunderstanding on the part of early man of certain "beings". Now, this doesn't mean there are no "benevolent" aliens that are ALSO here now, but they would be service to OTHERS, and therefore they CANNOT interfere! There is no "savior", if our race is to be destroyed, it will be destroyed. This isn't a hollywood movie where some hero saves the day, or someone intervenes and protects us. Races get destroyed, people die, all life eventually ends, and sometimes very abruptly.. the universe doesn't JUDGE any experience as good or bad, it just IS.

However, all that I mentioned above is an indication that "something" is amiss, that there's more to this conflict on our planet than meets the eye. The question now, is what have our leaders been "told" that they are preparing for something in such a hurry? Why the sudden takeover of middle east by US, just OIL or something else that we're not being told? Why the climate Pentagon Report that claims that cataclysms will overtake this planet in a few years? What about the whole fiasco with Comets and the recent DISINFORMATION attempts by "Aussie Bloke" to try to discredit any and all suggestions that comets may threaten Earth? Are these things related? What about the Israeli push to control Palestinians, and Sharon's plans for "Greater Israel", how does this fit in with what US is doing to the Arabs?

What about the recently discussed all over the internet possibility of a "terrorist attack" on our nation this summer or fall, and Martial Law being instituted? Could they be PREPARING the planet for something, something the populace doesn't know yet, and the plans are now accelerating? What I DO know currently is that humans are cannon fodder for their leaders, and overall humanity has been controlled like sheep and guided in their "evolution" for some purpose. The "elite" leaders die and new ones take up their place, and they CONTINUE the same plans, the same basic strategy that all leads up to the same goal. The question is, what is controlling THEM, what is controlling humanity as a whole, in WHOSE interest is all of this being done? Who BENEFITS?

[edit on 12-7-2004 by lilblam]

Such is the nature of disinformation and why consequently the PTB aren't really afraid of the internet being used to find the truths they don't want revealed. Every truth that is uncovered by the ardent researcher is easily hidden by thousands of untruths planted to specifically debunk the real truth. Even half-truths serve their purpose, because half-truths have just enough credibility to make connecting the dots possible, while leading the truthseeker down the wrong path.

ok , show me some truths that are genuine truths and not dissinfo , explain to me how i can find these out myself that these truths are genuine and not dissinfo , tell me how u know what you know to be truth and not dissinfo

lilblam

I would like to know why it is that you make the assumption, if I'm understanding you correctly, that confrontational and self-serving behavior is PRIMITIVE, and it is limited to low level civilizations like ours. What makes you think that a really advanced civilization cannot be self serving?

I didn't say this and I don't assume it. There were races taking advantage of humans, and now there aren't anymore because the advanced races set up the organization around our planet which prevents it. Those few races did not want us for food or slavery, like you assume, but had the need and opportunity to take something from us so they did. Our leaders gave them permission to abduct humans in exchange for the promise of technologies. Which leadership do you prefer based on how they handled this problem? Could you have handled it yourself with no leadership or authority at all? Earth's leadership is in no position to protect us from being taken advantage of by other races, but further advanced races are.

First of all, I already pointed out that anybody who is "in charge" in any hierarchy,

Hierarchy is your word. However, every good organization has a kind of rank system and every job has a description. Every single part is important to the whole. Those best suited to lead, lead. How each party gets into position and how each leader leads, and what motivates each of them is subjective. There is nothing wrong with leadership. If you think so, then you have only known bad leadership, which is my point.

The most advanced races visiting Earth are best suited to be an authority and they are chosen by all who participate in the organization. It does not mean they own anybody. Everyone needs to have structure and security of a good organization. It makes things run well. It keeps people safe. It helps make sure that everyone knows the rules and follows them. If you have a job and your boss wants you to do something a certain way, why is that? Does he own you if he can ask you to do it his way? Do you think you should make equal decisions or hold the keys to the buildings? If he is a good boss, fair, kind, considerate and willing to listen to all parties, then he will bring a fast solution to difficulties and all parties who support him will respect his decisions.

You keep saying "service to self" as if you expect everyone to be either for or against everybody else. So if somebody works and saves their money and buys a house, do you think that person is in "service to self"? If somebody else thinks they are equally entitled to that house and tries to take it, should the first person be able to call on an authority that will prevent the second person from taking it?

I am saying that primitive hostile races of people automatically assume that advanced races are like themselves. Lots of humans are doing it. I am also saying that our visiting races are not primitive and they are not hostile. The leaders are "true" leaders. Not like the kind you are used to.

I am sorry I can't respond to every point in your post.

My views are as follows:

I think that the aliens are not harvesting us to kill us. If they were, they wouldn't bring anyone they have abducted back alive. If they did, then they are not intelligent. They simply wish to study us, how we work, and what makes us tick. Much like we do with other animals. I think that these aliens might someday form a colony here, if they see us harmless. Though I doubt it. They may just shy away from us because of our extensive wars and conflicts. Another thing about the weapons, and war. They may see this, and consider US hostile. When dealing with a possible enemy, its best to view it through both sides. Don't just assume they are hostile. Now, if they wonna kill us all and take our planet, thats a different story.

Liblam,

always a pleasure checking out your posts! I appreciate your ability to stay emotionally detached when replying to people who are obviously very emotional about their beliefs. One thing that I have noticed about people who are an "expert" in the field of aliens is that they are very passionate about never being wrong, but are very reluctant to proving themselves right. I'd have a real hard time possessing vast knowledge of alien existence without the ability to prove my claims. If I had a personal experience with an alien being that I myself could not shake of as a period of temporary insanity, I'd pretty much dedicate my life to proving my experience to the world. I mean, come on, having a personal experience with an alien, whether good or bad, is probably the greatest thing that will ever happen to you in your life. At the very least, I'd definetly not be satisfied by simply chatting about it with others on the web.

You have said in your previous posts that you don't beleive in things, you either know or you don't know. I'm curious as to what you KNOW about the topic of alien existence and how you came to know it, if at all. As you are probably aware, I am not a "knower" of alien existence (at least none that are here on earth or are observing earth right now; life elsewhere in our Universe is another subject) because, in spite of the numerous first hand personal accounts, none of them that I know of have come away with anything that would lead to think otherwise. That, and the fact that I have no persoanl experience with an alien entity. Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.


[edit on 12-7-2004 by mpeake]

[edit on 12-7-2004 by mpeake]

[edit on 12-7-2004 by mpeake]

Originally posted by EarthSister

There were races taking advantage of humans, and now there aren't anymore because the advanced races set up the organization around our planet which prevents it.

And you KNOW this how?

Those few races did not want us for food or slavery, like you assume, but had the need and opportunity to take something from us so they did. Our leaders gave them permission to abduct humans in exchange for the promise of technologies.

What makes you think they need permission from anyone to abduct who they want? What can our "leaders" do about it? Nothing! So why bother asking permission to do what you can do anyway?

Which leadership do you prefer based on how they handled this problem? Could you have handled it yourself with no leadership or authority at all?

Which problem?

Earth's leadership is in no position to protect us from being taken advantage of by other races, but further advanced races are.

Precisely, if they are in no position to protect us, why would those who DO want to take advantage of us ASK our leaders for permission? Do you see the logic? You seem to contradict yourself here. First you say they ask for permission, then you admit that our leaders couldn't do anything even if they wanted to.

Hierarchy is your word. However, every good organization has a kind of rank system and every job has a description. Every single part is important to the whole. Those best suited to lead, lead.

Only in self serving worlds. There is no need to lead, you can be organized and have everyone be EQUAL and contribute out of their own free will. The problem with humans in that area is, they ARE self serving, so they will try to take advantage, exploit, and control one another, so they DO require leadership to keep them IN LINE. This is what separates service to self worlds from service to others!

How each party gets into position and how each leader leads, and what motivates each of them is subjective. There is nothing wrong with leadership. If you think so, then you have only known bad leadership, which is my point.

No, there is indeed nothing wrong with leadership. There is nothing "wrong" with anything. However, it still IS what it is. What is a leader? One who is in charge or in command of others. One who tells others what to do! So what happened to free will? Why do you need someone to TELL you what to do?

The most advanced races visiting Earth are best suited to be an authority and they are chosen by all who participate in the organization.

I didn't choose them. Are they not going to respect my free will? I choose not to be in their hierarchy. Who made the decision who is best suited for anything? No one is best suited by default, someone in CHARGE must've decided who to "appoint" as an authority. Authority means hierarchy, means control, means there are people "below" and people "above". Once again, self serving races.

It does not mean they own anybody. Everyone needs to have structure and security of a good organization.

No one needs anything, period. There is only choice. Ownership or not, it is still CONTROL. Any time there is a leader, it means control. Any time there is someone "in charge" it is control. Any time there is a hirarchy, it means control. And CONTROL means those being CONTROLLED are to OBEY because the "leader" knows BEST. Which is once again, a characteristic of service to self worlds, where where people cannot cooperate without leaders, where if by chance all the leaders were to "go away" people would panic, and would try to use, abuse, exploit, control, and blackmail each other, and build hierarchies once again. Service to self beings do not live without hierarchies.

If you cannot understand how a civilization can exist without any leaders or any bosses or anyone being IN CHARGE, that is because you are by nature service to self, as are we ALL. However, it takes much effort and critical thinking to understand that which is outside your nature. If you do not understand something, you cannot make the CHOICE to be it or follow a certain ideal. With increased knowledge comes increased free will. Just think about it, I don't ask you to believe me. Take any preconceptions that you have and question them, in light of what I said. Then, if after some critical thought you arrive back at the same conclusions at which you have arrived now, fine. If not, then you'll understand what I'm saying and why I'm saying it.

It makes things run well. It keeps people safe. It helps make sure that everyone knows the rules and follows them.

Safe from what? Knowledge is all the protection anyone ever needs. If you look outside yourself for protection, you'll never find it, though you can pretend you did, until something else comes along and you are forced to find new "safety zones". And who MAKES these rules? Why do we need to follow rules at all? Structure already inherently exists in chaos, even if certain level of awareness needs to be reached first before the structure and "order" is visible. Oh and who defines what "well" is? You said it makes things run WELL, but there are many different understandings of what "running well" implies.

Apparently we have a choice. We can choose to join a world of hierarchy, control, leaders, and followers, or we can choose a world of co-operation and equality, with NO bosses, NO one in charge, NO one in "command", and NO one can tell ANYONE ELSE what to do or what to think. Everyone simply contributes that which wish to contribute, and ONLY as much as they want to contribute. NO one expects anything from anyone.

Such cannot work on this planet of course, because of the havoc that would ensue instantly, because our service to self nature would wish to take advantage of the opportunity and control others, people would kill, would band in groups, would again set up bartering systems, and it would start all over again. All there is is lessons, and this world is the way it is for a reason, for us to LEARN from it and move on. Some move on to a greater expression of the same sort of persuasion, which is service to self. They basically follow the entropic principle. Others, follow the creative principle, and serve others which implies respect of free will. Structure there exists without any sort of hierarchies.

If you have a job and your boss wants you to do something a certain way, why is that? Does he own you if he can ask you to do it his way? Do you think you should make equal decisions or hold the keys to the buildings? If he is a good boss, fair, kind, considerate and willing to listen to all parties, then he will bring a fast solution to difficulties and all parties who support him will respect his decisions.

Because any BUSINESS is service to self. It is designed to create as much profit as possible. Therefore, those who can generate the most profit are "promoted" in the business, those who can tell others what to do, those who can LEAD and organize others, to use their services to make the business grow and prosper. Any "boss" that I have is in CHARGE of me in that business, if he tells me something, I HAVE to do it, or I will get fired. It's not an open forum where I can tell him "nah, I'll do it my way, but thanks for the advice!" and he can do absolutely NOTHING to stop me. Nope, in service to self hierarchy-based existance, I will be "eliminated" from the business. But this is just talking about a job. What if the whole WORLD is service to self? Well then "elimination" takes on a whole new meaning.

You keep saying "service to self" as if you expect everyone to be either for or against everybody else.
So if somebody works and saves their money and buys a house, do you think that person is in "service to self"?

Well who else are they serving but themselves? The aim is to make MONEY to buy STUFF (including a house). They are attached to physicality, they live to serve themselves! Is this not obvious? Well, most humans are service to self in denial, they practice the art of "lying to oneself" in order to pretend they are something they are not, which makes them feel better. But denying objective reality doesn't change it.

If somebody else thinks they are equally entitled to that house and tries to take it, should the first person be able to call on an authority that will prevent the second person from taking it?

No such thing as should. The 1st person makes the CHOICE to call upon an authority, because he feels he OWNS this house, and he wants it for HIMSELF. Once again, competition, ownership/possession, and "authority" are all concepts of service to self worlds, and do not exist in service to others worlds.

I am saying that primitive hostile races of people automatically assume that advanced races are like themselves. Lots of humans are doing it. I am also saying that our visiting races are not primitive and they are not hostile. The leaders are "true" leaders.

"True" or "False", they are STILL leaders. And leadership means control, means "commands", means subservience, means hierarchy, and means service to self. Either way you spin it, no matter how many "masks" and "disguises" you put on it using such words as "true", it still doesn't make it something else.

Hostile or not is not the point. They are service to self, which means they will be as "hostile" as they NEED to be when it suits them. They don't need to go around slaughtering everything they find to be "self serving".

But you do not really SEE what I'm saying, do you? All there is, is lessons

Originally posted by mpeake
Liblam,
One thing that I have noticed about people who are an "expert" in the field of aliens is that they are very passionate about never being wrong, but are very reluctant to proving themselves right.

Ego, and fear. Both very powerful motivators. Ego that you MAY be wrong, and that somehow "lessens" you in the judgemental eyes of others. Fear, that if you ARE wrong, you have lived a lie, you have devoted your life to a LIE - this is something most people are willing to NEVER question, just so they don't have to face something like this. And that is understandable.

But once again, ego and fear do not exist in service to others beings. Fear for what? For self of course. And ego, well that's self explanatory

I'd have a real hard time possessing vast knowledge of alien existence without the ability to prove my claims.

What I've come to learn is that "proof" doesn't exist. What proves something to you doesn't prove anything to someone else. But what does seem to exist is knowledge, and the strive to obtain it. I can't prove anything to you, I can't even prove that 2+2=4. Either you know it, or you do not. I can try to explain it to you, but if you fail to understand, you will not know it, and there is NOTHING I can do to MAKE you know it!

Same thing goes for absolutely anything else. Either you choose to seek knowledge, or you hang on to your precious beliefs and attachments, and refuse to open your mind and question everything. But all there is, is lessons. We all learn at our pace, we're all here now (this world) for a reason, because we FIT here. No one is ever where they do not FIT, else they wouldn't be here. Most people are in extreme ignorance about a vast amount of things, most importantly, who THEY are. And until they let go of their fears and ego and attachments, and QUESTION themselves and their reality, they will forever be deceived by those who wish to control them, for any number of reasons. When we assume, we are ALWAYS led astray.

If I had a personal experience with an alien being that I myself could not shake of as a period of temporary insanity, I'd pretty much dedicate my life to proving my experience to the world.

And you realise, there's nothing really you can do to prove it. People either believe you, or they don't! So even if you 100% KNOW something, someone else may NOT know it, and there would be NOTHING you could do to make him know it! But then again, what do YOU really know about your 'experience', and what is an assumption? For all you know, the "alien experience" is just high technology holographic projection that was done to you by some government agency.

But too many people jump to conclusions, because that is what they WANT it to be. EarthSister WANTS the aliens to be "nice" and "friendly" and "loving", and she wants the human race to be "uplifted" and "saved" from our ignorance. As she said herself, it is our TIME. She failed to question who made the decision that it is our TIME, because EVERYTHING is choice! And whoever may be communicating with her, uses those personal desires against her, by complying with them, as it suits their purposes. Now look at the vast amount of disinformation spread on such forums such as ATS, by people who simply wishfully think, and see only that which they want to see.

I mean, come on, having a personal experience with an alien, whether good or bad, is probably the greatest thing that will ever happen to you in your life.

Subjective! And if you had the slightest idea what is being done to a certain percentage of humans anually, who go "missing" and never return, you'd probably die from shock.

You have said in your previous posts that you don't beleive in things, you either know or you don't know. I'm curious as to what you KNOW about the topic of alien existence and how you came to know it, if at all.

Whatever I may know, is from my own effort and research and CHOICE to seek the truth. As mentioned previously, there is nothing I can do to make YOU know what I know, without YOU actually putting in the effort to find out, personally. I have no proof of any kind for anything. I can't even prove that we had this conversation today, if the moderators happen to trash this thread!

The best thing you have to figure this out, is your mind. The first thing I'd suggest is you seek to know who YOU are. When you begin to understand who YOU are, you will begin to understand a LOT more than you can possibly imagine at this point. No I can't prove that to you either. Once again, only through your own choices and dedication do you achieve the knowledge that you seek, if indeed you seek knowledge. Sadly, most just seek confirmation of their own preconceptions and assumptions (many based on programming), and usually some "force" provides them with these confirmation, satisfying the "seeker". He then makes it his mission to spread this disinfo to others, who are susceptible to deception because they also do not seek knowledge, they just seek to be "amazed" and "shocked" and to see some "miracle light show" from some alien force. Service to self usually prefers the motto, "ignorance is bliss" when the truth happens to be something unpleasant to them.

Search google for recent news about "weeping statues" and apparitions of "Mary" and other such events. Then consider the effect they have on the surrounding populace.

Basically, it will take a lot of effort and a lot of "facing your own demons" to begin to understand certain things, but once you cross that line, you won't go back. There are those who are willing to help you (I am one of them) in such a quest, because they chose to make themselves available here and now to help those who ask. Why? Because we were asked. Who's "we"? Wait till certain events in the near future, which you can almost see just by observing your present "current events" and paying attention to the signs. It will come "hard and fast", though there was PLENTY of warning for those who have their eyes open. Once again, nothing can be proven, but all can be KNOWN with effort on YOUR part.

As you are probably aware, I am not a "knower" of alien existence (at least none that are here on earth or are observing earth right now; life elsewhere in our Universe is another subject) because, in spite of the numerous first hand personal accounts, none of them that I know of have come away with anything that would lead to think otherwise. That, and the fact that I have no persoanl experience with an alien entity. Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.

Very hard to know what is purposely hidden from you, though never impossible. But once again, all there is is lessons. The chips will fall where they will fall, when you're ready. Any learning is systematic, and you are able to formulate further questions based on your new understandings, and learn further - you don't learn Calculus before algebra. Before you jump into "who are the aliens" etc, I advise you to first do the work on yourself. Question all your current beliefs/assumptions/knowledge, and see what you REALLY know, and what you just assume based on cultural/society teachings, parental teachings, friends, the media, etc. All humans are machines, that basically react to stimuli with VERY little conscious thought, or Being of their own. It takes much effort to learn to consciously BE and CHOOSE, considering the massive amount of mind programming and conditioning on this planet.

How would you define the word "aliens"? Why? What is the LIMIT of this? How do you define PROOF? Why? What is REALITY? There are so many unanswered questions that beg to be answered, though you can only answer it yourself, others who have already gained these understandings can only help you and guide you IF you ask. The point is to question EVERYTHING! No one ever receives knowledge without their personal effort and dedication to seek TRUTH - it NEVER drops on your lap from the sky. And as I've previously mentioned, there are very FEW humans on the planet as of now who are indeed searching and beginning to discover who they are and what is the reality they occupy. Why? Because most people are too distracted with other things, they PRETEND to search for truth when in reality they are stagnating on something, they are "obsessed" with some assumption or wishful thinking, even if ever so subtle that they do not even notice. Your job, your family, all your material "stuff", all your relationships are all simply distractions which provide you lessons and opportunities to understand yourself and your world, and mostly here to keep you "busy" (and karmic reasons). If everyone suddenly decided to question themselves and their reality, certain "entities" would become rather "upset", as their control would begin to crumble.

But once again, I give very little actual information but ask very many questions, for the purpose of inspiring you to seek the answers yourself, the only way you can learn! Enlightenment doesn't come from outside, it comes from within. Ask, and you shall receive. Receive without asking, and you shall be deceived. And asking is not verbal, and is the tricky part.

-Mike

Wow, great posts Mike. Just wanted to add something to kind of simplify part of what you were addressing. It's a well known phrase but I think few really give it much consideration.

"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

cheers,

StickyG

lilblam

I have my reasons for trusting my alien contacts. I understand that you have no reason to. The same as you trust your friends because you spend a good amount of time with them, and you know their personalities and habits and their limits, and I don't know your friends so I don't trust your friends. If I got to know your friends, I would trust them unless something happened in my personal experiences with them to suggest I should not. I would not mistrust your friends for no reason, nor would I assume that you should not trust them either. None of the things my alien friends have ever told me has come out to be false.

The things I know about alien life, I have learned from alien life.

The alien races, with their capabilities, could just take us or whatever else they wanted here at any moment. But our military can fire on their crafts and spread disinformation about them, so those few alien races I was speaking about had to work something out with our govt. Those were a few races of all the races that visit Earth, and they were not among the most advanced. They were vulnerable to govt harassment and capture in large part because these races had a schedule of physical contact with particular humans. These races returned to the same people, and many of these people became known for it through the grapevine or by speaking publicly. These alien races had to fly right in and make direct contact in order to do the things they were doing with humans. This made them the most apparent and notorious of all the visiting races.

Our govt wanted whatever they could get from the aliens, so they made a deal with the aliens and allowed the aliens access to humans. In time, the further advanced races put a stop to this-- both the use of humans for hybrid programs and the crooked deal these two races had with the govt. I asked you which leadership you would prefer. I meant your leadership who made the crooked deal, or the alien's leadership of visiting races who put and end to it.

The alien's organization at Earth is not directly for humans. I think you misunderstand that. The organization is held for the alien races, by the alien races. However, we humans stand to benefit a great deal from this, because it means we can open contact with other life and no visiting or neighboring races can take advantage of us. The aliens are not here for the purpose of protecting us, but that is part of what they do for everybody involved.

Businesses are not just for a few people to make as much profit as possible. Businesses are for building and housing and supplying and providing and servicing. Businesses mean jobs and professions for all walks of people. Our system runs on money, but even without money, we would still need the structure of a business to build and supply our world and people. None of our visiting races use money on their worlds. Nobody gets paid money to do any job. On each of their worlds everything necessary is provided by the organization of their leadership, of which everyone contributes in whatever way they do or can. They are not denied anything no matter how much or little they contribute. They still have a system of order.

The individuals who are visiting Earth have studied and trained for this work between our worlds, and are the dedicated professionals of their races. They have left behind their homes and families to work here and only go home for one or two short periods at a time per year. They do not do this for money. None of them has a greater wealth or worth than another in their race, but they do have "great" geniuses, artists, discoverers, inventors, etc. They are evolving and increasing and learning more and more also. Some individuals are naturally more suited to certain professions by their talents, but they are still treated as equals to everyone else.

I am sorry this is as much time as I can spend on your post right now.

[edit on 12-7-2004 by EarthSister]

Liblam, I must say you can elaborate better than anyone I have ever met. Kudos

While I agree a system with hiearchies is self serving in a way it doesn't mean it has to be so black and white. There is a middle ground between serving self and serving others it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. If I give a kid a toy I'm doing it in a large part because the kid is going to get alot of enjoyment out of it and partly because it makes ME happy. Therefore I'm STS and STO at the same time.

The vast majority of people in this world are a combination of STS and STO. Its just that with all the different nations and groups of people in this world it can seem purely STS. And really what is STS and STO? It is all relative. Lets say we have a society of aliens that have no leadership per say, everyone has a voice in every decision that is made. Nobody can gain any more power than the next person in this society. Everyone works to better the entire species. You would say this is STO correct?

Well lets say that this society soons find out that their planet can no longer support life, so they ALL decide to travel into space to look for a new place to live. Soon they come to our planet; they contact the governments and tell them what has happened to their race and ask if they can settle on our planet. Our governments of course tell them no since we are already having a population crisis. So the aliens are left with no other nearby livable planet and they don't have the time nor resources to terraform a planet. Either they do something drastic or their race dies out.

So we have a STO race with little options: 1) take over our planet and inhabit it thereby saving their race or 2) Die. These aliens are thinking about what is best for their race, they want to see their children live to grow up happy just as they did. Still STO right? But the only way for their children and race to survive is to take this planet by force, which will result in the deaths of many humans and aliens alike. Now you would probably say they are STS but in their eyes they are still a STO society. They don't want to see us hurt but then again thinking of the others of their OWN race they do not want to see them all die off.

My point is that there is no such thing as purely STO or STS. It is all in the eye of the beholder. There is really only a middle ground, or leaning more to one side or the other. Even with the theoretical STO society you are not guarunteed a peacefull existence.

And if you are as hard-up on STO society as you seem to be you should just drop this whole debate now. Trust is based on the experiences we have with others and Earthsister seems to have had quite a few experiences with the aliens. Take up a STO attitude and trust that she is right in her trust, but caution her that she could be wrong, and let this argument drop. Stop feeding your own ego, by proclaiming your stance in these STS posts.



[edit on 12-7-2004 by dusran]

I don't like these green little creatures, and I think we are their zoo or something. If they want to feed, they go and steal some platinum from a Russian metal factory over and over again. And they do just whatever they want to us.

Everything you guys say are based on Creation no truth at all. that must be the only true thing said in this thread?