UK's Islam Channel Censured for Guests Advocating Marital Rape

reply to post by Kailassa


The discussion is between me and you, if I wanted to discuss this issue with the source you provided, then I could have, therefore wouldn't need you would I?

Me holding the weak position from an augmentative point of view and you still failed miserably, forcing you to go ask help from external websites.

Once again, if I wanted to debate with the website you provided, then I could have, I wouldn't need you

Next time if you wanna copy and paste, don't, instead write it down in your own words, that way you will be at least using your head a little.

reply to post by oozyism


In other words, Oozy loses, because he cannot counter any of the evidence I've presented.

I'll put it in my own words for you.
Islam not only supports women-hating wife-bashers, it states that many women need bashing.
Islam also murders women for the wrongs committed by men against them.

Islam was invented by a bloodthirsty warmonger to give himself authority and power.
He even used the status he'd given himself to take his choice of women, and to treat them cruelly.
He even thought it funny when another man hit "his" women.

In Islam, women are property.

And, Oozy, it you are anything to go by, Islamic men are liars, as I have proven several times in this thread already..

Islam is simply another religious cult which borrows heavily from other religions because the authors were too lazy to be inventive.

It encourages its followers not to think for themselves which is why we have ridiculous posts like the ones from oozy all backed up by paragraphs from a decrepit book with no morality inside whatsoever; we should not expect people like oozy to be reasonable or rational because they gain all of their morality from sheep banging middle easterners who forced their views on others by way of the sword.

reply to post by Kailassa


But I have already laid in front of you the fact that assault is forbidden in Islam, and assault to anyone (including your wife) is punishable using the same amount of pain inflicted.

Islam is represented by Quran, anything you want to say has to come from Quran, not from scholars of Islam because scholars of Islam can say what ever they like, just like you.

So if you want to debate this issue, use Quran as your source, if you don't have the ability, then that's your problem.

I will repost.

Noble Verses 4:34-36 "(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

(35). If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

(36). Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;"

As clearly seen, it is expression of dissatisfaction, hence you first just walk away, if it gets worse, you refuse to share bed with them, which is also an expression of that dissatisfaction, third, you tap them, I tap my Mrs all the time, and I will encourage others to do it also

"...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran 30:21)"

reply to post by oozyism

www.answering-islam.org...

This page certainly seems to suggest that western translators for the Quran have twisted elements of the wording to reduce the true meaning - it's a long read but the conclusion seems to be that Islam through the Quran does indeed permit violence against a wife?

In relation to your last post - I feel you have since had the principal of law explained to you. Another poster had amazingly summed up what I meant quite accurately!!

What do you say to that link - as it seems to back up the point others are making regarding the violence present in Islam?

reply to post by facchino


I already said assault is forbidden, and I have already talked about the detailed definition of assault, for example if you touch someone without their permission, it is assault. I have already argued that husband and wife touch each other freely. I have already argued that taping your wife doesn't equate to assault. I have already argued that a wife can sort such issues with the husband before marriage, or within marriage, and the wife always has the option of divorcing.

Regarding Answering-Islam website, an ATS colleague put it very well:

I'd like to acknowledge that, while I may disgree with some of what you say, your posts are generally well written and you present your ideas in a way that make them readily accessible. This is a subject that readily and regularly degenerates into copypasta from both sides. If I want to read www.answering[islam/christianity*].com, I'll cut out the middleman and go there myself. Your posts tend to bring something original and relevant to the debate. That really is appreciated.

(EvillerBob), Page 8

Originally posted by stumason
British nationals, maybe, but certainly not indigenous! You know what that word means, don't you?

My use of the word ''indigenous'' was deliberate.

You see how preposterous it sounds when it's applied in this case ?

Yet my use of the word to describe people who are descended from South Asia, is equally as invalid as describing any other inhabitant of the UK as ''indigenous'' - which is frequently done.

There seems to be this ridiculous notion that British Muslims aren't ''really British'', because they are not ''indigenous'', even so nobody else is indigenous to the UK !

Originally posted by stumason
See, I used to think this, but having seen a variety of undercover reports on how Islam is penetrating UK society, how they control certain councils, the voting and who their backers are, I am not so sure anymore. You see, the largest funding for new mosques and the Imam's within them comes from Saudi, the home of Wahabbism...

The problem with undercover reports, is they're only going to show things that are contentious or controversial.

They're not going to do an undercover report on some mosque in Bradford, where all the worshippers do is pray and have a chinwag. That's not going to make interesting telly !

Of course it's a worry if any kind of extremism flourishes, and we should make particular attempts to crack down on it in schools, councils and any other influential places where it may creep in to.

Originally posted by stumason
But the Wahhabi Immams and the bile they spout is and it is that form of Islam spreading fastest and converting the most...

Any attempt to spread Wahhabism in Britain, is going to be ultimately in vain for these imams.

It may work in theocratic countries like Saudi Arabia, where the citizens don't have as many choices, but if you give any young Muslim in Britain the option of living in a Western lifestyle or a strict Islamic one, then they're going to opt for the former on most occasions.

reply to post by oozyism

Ohh, Oozy, you are still trying to sell us porkies, aren't you.

And you are too funny a trickster, Oozy, saying now,

So if you want to debate this issue, use Quran as your source, if you don't have the ability, then that's your problem.

yet you complained after my previous post , in which I used quotes from the Koran and from a Muslim cleric to disprove you:

Next time if you wanna copy and paste, don't, instead write it down in your own words, that way you will be at least using your head a little.

So which is it to be, Oozy? Do you want me to keep using the words of Islamic authorities to disprove you, or do you want me to point out your deceits in my own words?



You know perfectly well that Islam authorises the husband to beat or scourge his wife.

Here are six translations of one of the many Koranic versus commanding the husband to do this.

THE QURAN ON WIFE BEATING

Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! (Rodwell)

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. (Dawood)

Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. (Pickthall)

Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great. (Arberry)

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir)

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali)

Out of six translations of the Koran, one has had the word "lightly" added.
The brackets show this is the translator's addition, not part of the original text.
No translation says "tap with a pencil."

"Lightly" in this context means to not beat hard enough to break bones or damage internal organs.
it obviously does not forbid beating hard enough to leave a woman green all over with bruising, because when a woman, bruised green from her husband beating her, asked Muhammad for help, he commanded her to go back to her husband and give him more sex.



Your inclusion of a quote saying it's ok for the husband and wife to discuss divorce is also funny, as it does nothing to prove your earlier lie:

Another thing, a Muslim wife can divorce her husband just by saying "divorce", without even having to go to court etc.

As the quotes from the koran above state, the husband is authorised to beat/scourge his wife even if he just fears she might want to leave him. The husband also has the right in islam to forbid his wife leaving the house, so how does she get away?

The fact is, onlyone branch of Islam, Sunni, even allows a women to petition the court for a divorce without her husband's agreement, and the wife's petition is only listened to in the most extreme circumstances, and only if she has witnesses to maltreatment to speak for her. The "I divorce thee, I divorce thee, I divorce thee," divorce is available to the man, not to his servant/possession/prisoner, his the wife.



Perhaps you need to think twice before trying to sell Westerners your load of crap, Oozy.

reply to post by Kailassa

Out of six translations of the Koran, one has had the word "lightly" added.
The brackets show this is the translator's addition, not part of the original text.
No translation says "tap with a pencil."

I think this discussion is finished

1. Assault is forbidden in Islam (including assault against your wife).

2. The verse talks about expression, and it is demonstrate dissatisfaction.

3. Assault is assault, if the wife is assaulted, she can call the cops and get her husband arrested > divorce, and her husband face the same pain she felt.

4. Hadith makes it clear that this expression should be light, it shouldn't cause injury or cause unendurable pain.

To sum it all up in one video

You can't even argue from an easy argumentative side.

I could have easily used another point of view, which states that this verse doesn't mean beat, rather this verse means to leave your wife completely, the Arabic word also means to leave, to depart etc.

But

I can do it from all sides

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Kailassa

 

1. Assault is forbidden in Islam (including assault against your wife).

Islamic law does not consider forced, unwelcome sex with one's wife to be rape, as her marriage vow is considered to be an unretractable agreement to sex.

Islamic law does not consider beating a wife as assault unless her husband breaks he bones or causes internal injuries.

Islamic law will not hear a case from a woman unless she has male witnesses.

The Koran states the husband has the right to prevent his wife leaving the house, so what freedom does the average Islamic woman have to make a complaint to an outside authority?

Assault is assault, if the wife is assaulted, she can call the cops and get her husband arrested > divorce, and her husband face the same pain she felt.

Don't be funny. I have enough contacts in Muslim countries to know the police will not even attend a "domestic dispute" at the woman's request. if she rings the police and says she's been beaten, they'll laugh and ask what she did to deserve it.

As for divorce . . . how many times do I have to repeat myself that under Islamic law women can only obtain a divorve without the husband's agreement in Sunni Islam, and even then, it is generally reserved for women who have been deserted for long periods.

Hadith makes it clear that this expression should be light, it shouldn't cause injury or cause unendurable pain.

You sound like Bush explaining why what the Americans do isn't torture.
However all you have done is define "light" for us: that which does not break bones, damage organs, or cause unendurable pain.
What you have shown here is that any beating which is not quite that bad is allowable.


Hadith make it clear that no-one has the right to query a man who beats his wife.
The Koran makes it clear that Muhammed physically hurt his wives, and even thought it funny when another man beat them.

I could have easily used another point of view, which states that this verse doesn't mean beat, rather this verse means to leave your wife completely, the Arabic word also means to leave, to depart etc.

As a Muslim apologist, you obviously feel free to tell any lie at all to defend Islam.
I didn't notice anything in the Koran fordding the telling of lies. Does it?

How about you do us all a little favour, 0ozy, and explain this Islamic "desertion" which causes pain, can done with a stick, can break bones, can kill . . .

Hadith from Bukhari[8], vol. 7, # 715, that details Islamic wife beating:
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!

ABU JAHM, A WELL KNOW WIFE BEATER

Sahih Muslim, Book 009, Number 3512:
…When my period of 'Idda was over, I mentioned to him [Muhammad] that Mu'awiya b. Abu Sufyan and Jahm had sent proposal of marriage to me, whereupon Allah's said: As for Abu Jahm, he does not put down his staff from his shoulder, and as for Mu'awiya, he is a poor man having no property; marry Usama b. Zaid. I objected to him, but he again said: Marry Usama; so I married him. Allah blessed there in and I was envied (by others).

Book 009, Number 3526:
…So I informed him [Muhammad]. (By that time) Mu'awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage. Allah's Messenger said: So far as Mu'awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but Usama b. Zaid... She pointed with her hand (that she did not approve of the idea of marrying) Usama. But Allah's Messenger said: Obedience to Allah and obedience to His Messenger is better for thee. She said: So I married him, and I became an object of envy.

Book 009, Number 3527:
…She said: Mu'awiya and Abu'l-Jahm were among those who had given me the proposal of marriage. Thereupon Allah's Apostle said: Mu'awiya is destitute and in poor condition and Abu'l-Jahm is very harsh with women (or he beats women, or like that), you should take Usama b. Zaid (as your husband).

HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF IBN-I-MAJAH" #1986
Ash’ath b. Qais is reported to have said, "One night Umar arranged a feast. When it was midnight, he got up and went towards his wife to beat her. I separated them both. When he went to bed, he said to me, "O Ash’ath, preserve from me a thing that I heard from Allah’s messenger. (These things are): A man will not be taken to task for beating his wife (for valid reasons) and do not sleep without observing witr prayer." I forgot the third (exhortation).

Sahih Muslim #2127:
(Aisha) said: Yes. (Muhammad) struck me on the chest which caused me pain, . . .

Sahih Muslim #3506:
He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter of Kharija when she asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger laughed and said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. Abu Bakr then got up went to 'Aisha and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her . . .

Bukhari volume 8, #828
Narrated Aisha: Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, "You have detained the people because of your necklace." But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah's Apostle although that hit was very painful.

Al Zahry said: if a man hit his wife or wounded her, he is not to be charged, unless he kills her, then he shall be killed for murdering her.

COMMENTARY OF AL QURTUBI
Allah ordered that men begin by admonishing their wives as a first step, then abandonment, then beating if they refused to repent. This is because men are responsible to straighten their wives up. The beating mentioned in this verse has to do with the kind that is not severe and used for discipline. The kind that does not break the bone. However, it is not a crime if it leads to death.
. . .
It was reported also that Omar beat his wife and said, I heard the messenger of Allah say: (No man should be asked why he beat his wife).

www.answering-islam.org...

I can do it from all sides

No, Oozy, you cannot do it from any side, so perhaps you should just give up.


Muhammad was a wife-beater.
Muhammad instructed men to hit their wives.
The words of Muhammad form the basis of Islamic law.

reply to post by Kailassa


Next time I encourage you to visit Yang, after visiting Ying

www.answering-christianity.com...

..

- Assault is forbidden and punishable through the same pain inflicted.
- Wife can divorce anytime if the husband is mis-treating her.
- The mentioned verse talks about expression, like that slap you saw on the video. Do you think that was assault.
- A saying of Mohammad gives more detail regarding this verse which is why people say softly


Nothing else to add.



Please do visit the yang.

reply to post by oozyism

You dismiss the discussion of Islamic states and whether or not the act is demeaning as not relevant, yet want to now throw in Christianity?!
Yin and yang? A chinese concept
How relevant indeed.

Therefore are you saying that Islam is the opposite of Christianity? It gives it balance? What exactly?

I suppose the discussion is over because as you said to me I was repeating myself without adding anything new , yet hypocritically you are doing just that.
You have been shown that your viewpoint is wrong with text from your beloved Quran yet still argue you are right.

I also think it's safe to say you have the comprehension of an idiot and should think twice before making such an idiot of yourself next time.