Aliens and skeptics

reply to post by FireMoon


If you care to look at the history of extrasolar planet detection, a subsection of the extrasolar planets article. You'll see that as far back as 16th century the Italian philosopher Bruno thought that stars could be 'other suns;.

There is much more to the history - a nice read indeed. This indicated that the possibility of detecting other planets beyond our own solar system has been research research material for a long while. A few retracted claims- but science wouldn't be science without transformational practise in its processes.

Are you able to bring me proof of intelligent life on other planets yet?

-m0r

Well given Bruno is a hero to the Erisians yup, I've heard of him. The Venerable Bede apparently worked out how far the Moon was from the Earth to within a couple of thousand miles in the 8th CE

One other thing that comes to mind. Astronomers assumed there were millions of *dead* stars floating around in the galaxy that were undiscovered . These dead stars couldn't be seen but their gravitational pull would disrupt the formation of planetary systems. Radio astronomy was what changed it all in a relatively short time period.

As for other life..I tend towards the Pan Spermia explanation and given that, the chances of other life not being around are considered tiny to the point, you'd have a hard time arguing it doesn't exist elsewhere.

Yes friend i will give it a go. Its Beacause david ike is in my opinion, Helping the powers that be make a Mockery of us, that are trying to prize Diclosure from those that deny Me the TRUTH..... We do not all Think Little green REPTILES / ALIENS .... Hopping around BUCKINGHAM PALACE in the bodys of our Queen and her Family. This is why my friend We are being tarred and Featherd with the same Brush. Thats why they dont Believe, he is taking the facts and STUFFING them in the Field of ABSURDITY ( Why David ? ) Ive spent years trying to dig out the truth. and you are hindering me ......Sure David you are entitled to your opinion, but you do not speak for me and you are not an Ambassador for Ufology. ( OH David plaese distance your self from Ufology ) you are Doing me no favours in the Eyes of the none belivers You have Dozens more conspiracies in your mind to be going on with

Originally posted by m0r1arty
reply to post by FireMoon

 

If you care to look at the history of extrasolar planet detection, a subsection of the extrasolar planets article. You'll see that as far back as 16th century the Italian philosopher Bruno thought that stars could be 'other suns;.

There is much more to the history - a nice read indeed. This indicated that the possibility of detecting other planets beyond our own solar system has been research research material for a long while. A few retracted claims- but science wouldn't be science without transformational practise in its processes.

There's a recurring theme in ancient creation myths that says the world began with the "great sound" . . .
Big bang?

reply to post by FireMoon


The praxis of the argument was proof of intelligent life not whether the chance of it was high or otherwise.

That's the difference between a sceptic, a debunker and a believer.

Sceptic is open to everything but can only work with proof.

Debunker is against the idea of visiting alien life.

Believer thinks everything is proof of visiting ET and possibly working with governments etc. at covering up their existence.

This may be a very general set of labelling - but I want my position as a sceptic to be understood.

Proof of intelligent life elsewhere is completely different from chance of intelligent life elsewhere - and that's before we add the visiting here part.

If evidence was provided I would adopt it and change my position upon the matter.

The fact that it cannot be presented means I must keep some cynicism towards baseless claims as being truthful.

I hope you understand.

The reason I try to correct people or show them other options isn't to shatter their belief system - but to educate them towards another.

My children have to live in the same world as their children. I'm not having our kids fight over concepts which cannot be proven either way.

A dose of scepticism is healthy for everybody especially when money is involved with books, movies, lectures or advert generated cash on a website.

So to summarise my rambling; Without proof of the claim intelligent life exists elsewhere I need to take it as a notion. It might have a higher value than the invisible pink unicorn notion, but visiting specific ETs working directly with named governments in clandestine operations which are published and sold in books has less value than the unicorn to my mind.

Of course being a sceptic - I accept that I could be wrong on this.

-m0r

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by Gazrok
As has already been stated, it's not that the skeptics doubt ET life, or even intelligent ET life...they doubt that we are being visited by them.

And, there is a solid reason for this doubt. Traveling at the speed of our fastest rockets, it would take us hundreds of years to reach even the next closest star! That's a long trip....(especially if we get there and it's one of the more common systems, and no life world is there...indeed, we've detected them elsewhere, but not in our closest neighbor).

The thing is, the sheer statistics suggest the our galaxy is teeming with life, but even still, it's only a small percentage of star systems in the galaxy that are likely to harbor it. If it takes us that long to reach just the nearest one, it could take us (or theoretically, any aliens) numerous lifetimes before stumbling upon another.

However, what the skeptics doubt, is that these aliens have developed some means of travel that defies physics as we understand it. So, if these beings have developed an interstellar drive that can somehow bridge these distances, THEN we have a much higher probability of visitation.

Sorry, I'm a skeptic and I doubt that there is any other life than us in creation. Now, since this is an Alien & UFOs forum, and we are dealing every day with the reality of UFOs it could be argued that said UFOs contain a life form that is not human and that they come from somewhere else in the universe. There is no evidence for that assumption and until a proven alien life form makes a major public appearance and somehow provides the kind of irrefutable evidence that proves he's/she's from somewhere else in the universe the only consideration we can give said UFO occupants is that they are from the future. Major leap in theorizing but it sounds better than a space traveler.

Well, you are one of a very small minority of people who believe this. Why do you doubt that we are the only life form in the universe? What do you base that assumption on? Also, i have to ask this, are you religous?

Sorry, I'm a skeptic and I doubt that there is any other life than us in creation. Now, since this is an Alien & UFOs forum, and we are dealing every day with the reality of UFOs it could be argued that said UFOs contain a life form that is not human and that they come from somewhere else in the universe. There is no evidence for that assumption...

Yes, there is such evidence.

1) Liquid water has been detected and all but verified on other celestial bodies, even in our own solar system. From our own planet, we know that where liquid water can be found, the possibility of life isn't far out there.

2) We've detected other worlds around other stars, that are in the "life-zone" just as Earth is.

3) Sheer statistics put the probability of ET life as almost a certainty, whether you use the Drake equation or expansions of it.

4) Other evidence includes witness testimony of descriptions of creatures that do not fit any known creature on Earth. (and it's highly improbably an intelligent species would have escaped our attention, if Earthbound, therefore, the conclusion they are ET in origin is quite logical).

...and until a proven alien life form makes a major public appearance and somehow provides the kind of irrefutable evidence that proves he's/she's from somewhere else in the universe the only consideration we can give said UFO occupants is that they are from the future. Major leap in theorizing but it sounds better than a space traveler.

I would think Time Travel would violate more physics than interstellar travel. We at least KNOW interstellar travel is possible, it simply takes a while at current ability for us. You find time travel MORE plausible?

reply to post by Blue Shift

So I don't believe it, because the size of the universe is not good enough proof.

Sounds like an emotional choice if you ask me. The evidence is overwhelming for life by the fact you see one example of it thriving right before your eyes. We have scientific evidence that "bad stuff" has happened on earth in the past, perhaps even devastating the lifeforms here.... yet here we are still flourishing 4.5 billion years after formation of the planet. How can this be if life is so delicate like you espouse?

There is a high degree of probability that not only life exists, but that it flourishes and there is already a galactic civilization. Any objective analysis explains why we don't have proof positive. The life is millions of years ahead of us (as predicted by cosmological and evolutionary timescales) or milllions of years behind us. The UFO/aliens are the ones millions of years ahead of us. All the hallmarks are there.

You have a choice to remain skeptical today. Someday people will not have that choice. These beings have been here for eons. They aren't going to let us keeping advancing and stumble into their galactic system like a drunken college student wandering into a random party house. There is a plan. You can bet on it.

Originally posted by Scramjet76
Sounds like an emotional choice if you ask me. The evidence is overwhelming for life by the fact you see one example of it thriving right before your eyes.

But neither you nor I have any idea how unique our life on Earth is, because we don't know how it came to be. You seem to be assuming that if we take some water and chemicals and lightning (or whatever) and shake it at the right temperature long enough life is somehow automatically, magically going to happen. Experiments so far have determined that if you do that, you get some amino acids, but amino acids are a long, long way from even the simplest form of life, with DNA that crawls around and eats and has a consciousness.

So the chances of just the right chemicals all falling together, like shaking a computer in a box until all the parts fall into place to make a working computer, might be so incredibly, astronomically high that we could be the only example of it ever happening. As I've said, there are unique things in the universe. There are moons, but there is no moon like ours. There is me. And you. Unique things in all the universe. So it's very possible we could be the only example of life anywhere.

At this point in time, we have some possibilities, some debatable evidence, and some conjecture that life might exist elsewhere, but it's still not nearly good enough to say for sure that it does. I personally don't "believe" one way or another about it. But that's the way the facts as we know them stand right now.

Originally posted by Gazrok
1) Liquid water has been detected and all but verified on other celestial bodies, even in our own solar system. From our own planet, we know that where liquid water can be found, the possibility of life isn't far out there.

Liquid water is a good start. But there is sterile water, you know.

2) We've detected other worlds around other stars, that are in the "life-zone" just as Earth is.

Having a nice temperature is good, too, but let molten iron cool off to room temperature, and there's not going to be life inside it.

3) Sheer statistics put the probability of ET life as almost a certainty, whether you use the Drake equation or expansions of it.

Except that if only one of the Drake Equation's variable equals zero, then the whole thing is zero. And that's always a possibility when you don't know exact figures.

4) Other evidence includes witness testimony of descriptions of creatures that do not fit any known creature on Earth. (and it's highly improbably an intelligent species would have escaped our attention, if Earthbound, therefore, the conclusion they are ET in origin is quite logical).

The descriptions of strange creatures are intriguing, but you know how people make up stories, and don't see things exactly right sometimes. Half the people on this board see every other odd rock on Mars as a creature or remnant of one. From the beginning of time, human beings have been bugged by odd creatures -- ghosts, demons, leprechauns, dragons, hairy Bigfoots, sea monsters, mermaids, thunderbirds, and so on. Are all these things possible evidence of extraterrestrials, or are they maybe from a little closer to home?

Again, we have a lot of evidence, possibilities and conjecture, but nothing that pins it down to anything coming from another planet. Another reality, maybe?

reply to post by Blue Shift

But neither you nor I have any idea how unique our life on Earth is, because we don't know how it came to be. You seem to be assuming that if we take some water and chemicals and lightning (or whatever) and shake it at the right temperature long enough life is somehow automatically, magically going to happen. Experiments so far have determined that if you do that, you get some amino acids, but amino acids are a long, long way from even the simplest form of life, with DNA that crawls around and eats and has a consciousness.

Yes but you can't adequately simulate our universe by simply shaking up some chemicals with water and watching it for a few years. It proves nothing.

At this point in time, we have some possibilities, some debatable evidence, and some conjecture that life might exist elsewhere, but it's still not nearly good enough to say for sure that it does. I personally don't "believe" one way or another about it. But that's the way the facts as we know them stand right now.

I disagree. Although I don't disput the value of scientific method, it has weaknesses when used by "intelligence X" to describe the behavior and abilities of "intelligence Y," in the context of intelligence Y being eons older than intelligence X.

There is good data indicating that we are being visited by Type II aliens right now. The fact that it is barely recognizable to us is predicted by the age of our reality.

If we are just a "random accident" then accidents should be happening all the time. Which again leads back to the question of why we are here at all after 14+ billion years? Why hasn't our universe collapsed by some other random bizarre event in nature?

reply to post by Blue Shift

Another reality, maybe?

Sure maybe another reality. But you don't need to bring another reality into question to explain aliens/UFOs. Our reality that we see can explain it. Not only does it explain it, but gives them a reason for being here and interacting with us.

From the beginning of time, human beings have been bugged by odd creatures -- ghosts, demons, leprechauns, dragons, hairy Bigfoots, sea monsters, mermaids, thunderbirds, and so on. Are all these things possible evidence of extraterrestrials, or are they maybe from a little closer to home?

Have ghosts and leprechauns appeared on radar? Have they left physical traces? I don't know about that.

Also, while many people make stuff up or simply misinterpret what they experienced, you have to wonder with the number and quality of witnesses on the UFO/alien thing. Last time I checked, we have multiple ex-military officials saying a UFO disabled our ICBM's. It is very well documented. They did not claim they saw the devil, mermaids, bigfoot, or lepraechauns.

reply to post by Blue Shift


I bet we will find life in our own solar system. Ok, it will most prob be micro-organisms, but this will prove that if life can live in our own solar system, then the universe should be full of life. I think its a depressing thought if we are the only intelligent beings in the universe. Not because of the Loneliness, but because we are a hateful race and don't deserve to be the only intelligent race in the universe.

Living organisms have been found alive and well in environments on Earth that are supposed to be hostile. So the presence of life in our own solar system is very possible. Mars and Europa are the places where we think we might find life. Both show evidence of water, past or present.

Also, something you have to take on board is the fact that we our Aliens ourselves. Brought here by collisions with comets, or interstellar dust. Even though we need evidence that proves life exists in the universe, i believe this evidence is getting closer and closer. I believe in my life time, we will find life in the universe.

reply to post by Blue Shift


You said there wasn't "evidence"...there is. I'm not saying there's "proof", but there is evidence, and it seems we can at least now agree on that...

Experiments so far have determined that if you do that, you get some amino acids, but amino acids are a long, long way from even the simplest form of life, with DNA that crawls around and eats and has a consciousness.

Yes, but there is a factor we have not been able to add to these experiments....i.e. hundreds, thousands, or millions of years of chance interactions. However, I'm kind of with you in thinking that there has to be some kind of force that is also involved....despite the name for it (God, Allah, Yahweh, Krishna, Buddha, whatever...even just the collective "thought" of the Universe...who knows) in bringing forth life. However, I have to think that whatever this force is....it would seem an awful waste of space if we were the only life out there....

reply to post by Gazrok


Very true Gazrok... our univere seems to good to be true. All the more reason for you to believe in consciousness that is greater than our own.

UFOs/Aliens (which may be millions of years ahead of us) are difficult enough to understand as it stands. Can you try and imagine a civilization that predates the universe? Good luck with that one.

....it would seem an awful waste of space if we were the only life out there....

Very true. That would be the opposite of intelligent design. Non-intelligent design IMO.

Originally posted by Gazrok
You said there wasn't "evidence"...there is. I'm not saying there's "proof", but there is evidence, and it seems we can at least now agree on that...

Oh, I've always said there was evidence. If I've mistyped that somewhere, I apologize. But we really have no idea what it's evidence of. Something weird, that's for sure. I'm just not convinced that it has anything specifically to do with intelligent alien beings living on another planet.

I'm partial to (although not a strict "believer" in) the notion that it has something to do with the way time is structured and the way we perceive reality. Of course, it could be like the guy in Repo Man, who says, "time travel, space ships, people get too hung up on specifics." Once (or if) humanity ever figures out a way to move non-linearly through space/time, then we essentially become the aliens. And the planet that they come from is Earth, way ahead along the line of where we're traveling to through the universe. You could probably plot on a space chart exactly where the Earth will be 10,000 years from now.

But the way we perceive time and place and reality seems to be the key to the whole mess. Unfortunately, Einstein never put my point of view into an equation. All his mathematics were external, so we already have a wonky theory to work with.

But leave it to Nature to fill the gaps. I tend to think that both space and time are permeable, a bit like a sponge, and if you approach it the right way, you can zip right in and through it however you like. Maybe even without a lot of "power" as we understand it. I also tend to think that every once in a while Nature pops up with a random wormhole of its own, big enough to suck through a bacteria or a fish or even a whole planet, and send it sailing off randomly into space and time. I personally think that's what accounts for the ongoing expansion of the universe (both forward and backward in time). Stuff "falling out" of it.

And once in a while we happen to be in the right spot and the right frame of mind to see and photograph these things. It is "life" from "other planets?" People really do get hung up on specifics, and our vocabulary isn't such that we have a good way of explaining exactly what's going on here. It would be nice if it was as simple as spacemen coming from other planets in silver saucers to say Hi. But I don't think that's the way it works.

Anyway, until someone grabs something that pretty much all the experts agree is proof of life on other worlds, I'm going to have to still think we might be the only ones anywhere, generating reality, causing all this crazy stuff to happen, either now or in the past or in the future (or something else we can't even comprehend).

But leave it to Nature to fill the gaps. I tend to think that both space and time are permeable, a bit like a sponge, and if you approach it the right way, you can zip right in and through it however you like. Maybe even without a lot of "power" as we understand it. I also tend to think that every once in a while Nature pops up with a random wormhole of its own, big enough to suck through a bacteria or a fish or even a whole planet, and send it sailing off randomly into space and time. I personally think that's what accounts for the ongoing expansion of the universe (both forward and backward in time). Stuff "falling out" of it.

Modern ideas in physics actually do more to support rather than refute these ideas....but, if so, this could also open the door to interstellar travel, if moving through vast distances in space are possible.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Modern ideas in physics actually do more to support rather than refute these ideas....but, if so, this could also open the door to interstellar travel, if moving through vast distances in space are possible.

Well, Einstein said that space and time are essentially the same thing. And he was no slouch. But again, his equations failed to have me in them, experiencing time and space, so there's probably a little wiggle room in there to work with.

Originally posted by Jay-morris

Originally posted by The Shrike
(snip)
Sorry, I'm a skeptic and I doubt that there is any other life than us in creation. Now, since this is an Alien & UFOs forum, and we are dealing every day with the reality of UFOs it could be argued that said UFOs contain a life form that is not human and that they come from somewhere else in the universe. There is no evidence for that assumption and until a proven alien life form makes a major public appearance and somehow provides the kind of irrefutable evidence that proves he's/she's from somewhere else in the universe the only consideration we can give said UFO occupants is that they are from the future. Major leap in theorizing but it sounds better than a space traveler.

Well, you are one of a very small minority of people who believe this. Why do you doubt that we are the only life form in the universe? What do you base that assumption on? Also, i have to ask this, are you religous?

You really don't know how many people agree or disagree with me. I doubt it because as with everyone my life depends on what I experience daily and I've never experienced any other life other than my fellow humans. I do not base my life on statistics so when Frank Drake says that x-amount of planets hold life it's meaningless 'cause he made up the formula that gave him the x-amount. It's a mental game which I don't play.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

reply to post by The Shrike


Ok, do you think we should spend all this money on searching for life in the universe?