Aliens and skeptics

Originally posted by 6dark6energy6
ok so ive been thinking how some skeptics could not believe that there was life on other planets the idea that there is no life on other planets seems ludicrous to me space is infinite there was probably millions upon millions of other planets before earths first inhabitants to me everything is possible.

so can anyone tell me how someone can not believe there is no life on other planets...

could you tell me which skeptics think this way please?. because every skeptic i know(including myself) is absolutely positive that there is life on other planets, they are skeptical about visitation (but still dont rule it as impossible) and want real proof.

thanks

rich

reply to post by Blue Shift


OK set aside "Aliens on other worlds" for a second. Let's look here on Earth....

We are finding life where a few decades ago it was thought impossible to find life. We are finding it at the bottom of the ocean near sea floor volcanic vents with extreme temperature differences under crushing water pressure, We are finding it in of all places Nuclear power plants where it should be sterile from the extreme radiation and finally we find life in pools of acidic hot springs where the temperature would boil eggs in a matter of seconds.

So these are the extremes that we find life on Earth, potentially many of those Alien planets may have those very same environmental qualities. So the argument becomes....

A. Is there life on other planets? [Plants, fungus, single cell and or more advanced forms of life]

B. Is there any intelligent life on those planets? [Does not have to be bipedal upright species]

AND

C. Is there any intelligent life roaming the cosmos? [Have they been here in our past or here now]

The numbers game seems to be the only real proof we have. All the videos and pictures of UFO's and Aliens honestly mean nothing to me and [I'm a believer] but until we get our hands on some of their hardware and or they land a craft in-front of the UN and state We come in peace or How to serve man we have no real proof as of yet.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
A. Is there life on other planets? [Plants, fungus, single cell and or more advanced forms of life]

No proof of any.

B. Is there any intelligent life on those planets? [Does not have to be bipedal upright species]

No proof of that, either.

C. Is there any intelligent life roaming the cosmos? [Have they been here in our past or here now]

No proof of that, either. Maybe there is, but we have no clear indication that it exists. We don't even have enough data to guess as to what the probability might be, because we don't know how life happened on Earth. Maybe you do. If so, you're the only one. Even if we find a billion Earth-like planets, there's no saying any of them will have life on them. Just because a planet is like Earth doesn't mean life must magically form there.

Maybe the galaxy and the universe is chock full of life. At some point, though, it will be obvious. So you can believe in it all you want. That's what belief is. Accepting something as fact when you don't have the proof to back it up. I'm willing to wait and see what the data turns up.

reply to post by Blue Shift


So your stance is that there is ZERO life out there [Single celled or advanced]?


Or are you saying you want proof first?

You touched on it in your reply. Are you open to the possibility of life on other planets single celled or advanced?

But thats assuming life as we know it. I think there may be different life forms that could have formed in conditions far different to what we have on earth. Even here on earth we have found many lifeforms where no man could live. At the bottom of the oceans, in solid ice and in the mouths of volcanos. Life adapts and thus expands the probability.

Quite true. The thing is this...let's say that just 0.0001 % of stars in the galaxy have lifeworlds. Initially, that sounds almost like none are there. However, when you look at the sheer number of stars in this galaxy alone, you're still left with a ton of lifeworlds. For example, if there were just a billion stars, at this percentage, it would mean 100,000 lifeworlds. Suddenly, that small percentage isn't so small anymore, is it? (especially when folks estimate there are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy). So, as I said, even without expanding the parameters of life, it is most likely that the Universe is TEEMING with it, though not necessarily close in proximity.

I believe the answer to the question "Are we alone?" vary from time to time depending on where we stand scientifically and cultural. As long as we do not have any conclusive and factual evidence presented for us the only way of handling this is to let one's personal belief guide us. And don't forget to respect both the sceptic's and the believer's "truth" for what it is. (Sorry for any bad grammar, I'm not from the English speaking world.)

Originally posted by SLAYER69
So your stance is that there is ZERO life out there [Single celled or advanced]?
Or are you saying you want proof first?
You touched on it in your reply. Are you open to the possibility of life on other planets single celled or advanced?

Admitting the possibility of something is not the same as believing in it. And since there is life on Earth, we agree that life can exist. Then there might be life elsewhere. After all, monkeys might fly out my butt.

There also might be no other life out there, and we're just an odd cosmic fluke. As big as the universe is, there are singular and unique things in it. So until we have evidence to the contrary, it's every bit as likely that we're the only game in town.

Originally posted by Gazrok
The thing is this...let's say that just 0.0001 % of stars in the galaxy have lifeworlds. Initially, that sounds almost like none are there. However, when you look at the sheer number of stars in this galaxy alone, you're still left with a ton of lifeworlds. For example, if there were just a billion stars, at this percentage, it would mean 100,000 lifeworlds. Suddenly, that small percentage isn't so small anymore, is it? (especially when folks estimate there are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy). So, as I said, even without expanding the parameters of life, it is most likely that the Universe is TEEMING with it, though not necessarily close in proximity.

So what you're talking about is a 0.0001 % alien? How does that work, exactly? Either they exist, or they don't. Just like Dennis Hopper says in Apocalypse Now. You can't land of 1/2 or 3/4 of a planet. And you can't locate and verify 0.0001 percent of an alien. When it comes to conjecture like this, mathematics is lousy proof. Because 0.0001 equals 0.0000. Both have an equal chance of being true.

reply to post by 6dark6energy6


I believe that there is life on other planets. I simply do not belive that they make a habit of visiting us. Yep I am very skeptical about UFOs. If I see another youtube clip of a CGI hoax or moving dot against a dark background I shall barf over my PC.

At this time, we only have our immediate solar system to examine for extraterrestrial life (and a very, very small part of the solar system too) - be it single cell organisms or complex lifeforms. At this time, we have not identified any other life.

There are estimates of 10^22 stars in the universe. To put that into perspective, there are also approximately 6,700,000,000 people alive on the planet earth. Doing a bit of simple division, that would mean there are 1,492,537,313,430 stars accountable for each and every person on this planet. Yes, for every single person on this planet - you, me, the guy down the block, your grandmother, your arch-nemesis, etc... each person accounts for nearly 1.5 trillion stars (by certain scientific estimations).

Each one of those stars has the possibility of planets. Each one of those planets has the possibility of maintaining a habitable environment. Each of those inhabitable environments has the possibility of harboring life. All we need to do is find a single cell somewhere beyond our planet and then we will know life exists beyond our tiny floating rock.

We don't have immediate proof of other life in the universe, but our existing sample is so very, very tiny. If Earth is the ONLY planet that actually has life, then this is a very sad and unfortunate universe. I find much more comfort accepting a universe filled with every type of lifeform imaginable (and unimaginable) than to accept that we are alone in a sea of nothingness.

reply to post by RICH-ENGLAND


i dont know any skeptics that think this im presuming that there are because the probability exists that there are skeptics that think there is no life on other planets

Originally posted by mcmartinson
If Earth is the ONLY planet that actually has life, then this is a very sad and unfortunate universe. I find much more comfort accepting a universe filled with every type of lifeform imaginable (and unimaginable) than to accept that we are alone in a sea of nothingness.

Or look at it this way. If we're the only life around, then that makes it all the more unique, precious and wonderful, and each life and each living moment on the planet should be cherished. If we're just another planet crawling with life out of billions throughout the galaxy and universe, then we're just like another little bit of scum on a small rock in the middle of nowhere, and whether we exist or not doesn't matter at all.

Or how about this scenario? We find a radio signal from an intelligent civilization, and they're 500 million light years away. There's no way to communicate with them. They're probably already long dead. They'll never know about us, and we'll never know what happened to them. Is that good, or bad? Is that happy news, or sad?

I think it all depends on the kind of person you are to begin with.

So what you're talking about is a 0.0001 % alien? How does that work, exactly? Either they exist, or they don't.

No, I'm saying that even if a VERY, VERY, VERY small fraction of the stars in the galaxy contain worlds with life, that still leaves a tremendous number of lifeworlds out there. Most people simply don't do the math. (and I think mine is incorrect above, now that I think on it, but the resulting correct number still makes the same point)

For example, if there's a disease, in which only 0.1 percent survive....most people envision whole cities completely wiped out. When, if you do the math, it means that out of a city of 1,000,000, around 1000 survived. (which is close to being wiped out, but those 1000 people will be glad for the statistic)!

Alien life pretty much has to exist, statistically, as does alien intelligent life. The big question though is, has anyone made a technology that solves the distance problem? THAT is the big area of debate for skeptics, and it's a valid point. Thing is though, there is a lot of pretty good evidence to support that craft have been seen, that aren't from here...so they have to be from somewhere....

Thanks for the thread OP, IMO it's the same reason why the smartest people of one time thought the earth was flat and that we was the only planet in the universe. There is not enough conclusive evidence to support the claims, but keep in mind that a lot of people do believe in other life form, just not visiting earth. I admit that it is a far more tall-tale to believe that we are the only ones living on a planet in an infinite universe, But someone people just need reliable proof of existence of these beings, to not be called cooks, or whatever the media is referring the "believers" to be now. But we each have our own opinions, and we each need to respect one another, In my opinion, we will all see the truth soon enough, but until then.

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Or look at it this way. If we're the only life around, then that makes it all the more unique, precious and wonderful, and each life and each living moment on the planet should be cherished. If we're just another planet crawling with life out of billions throughout the galaxy and universe, then we're just like another little bit of scum on a small rock in the middle of nowhere, and whether we exist or not doesn't matter at all.

If I was standing alone on this planet - with nothing but rock, dust and sand around me, it would be the saddest, most horrible thing I could think of. I find nothing precious in absolute loneliness. I would prefer to be part of something much greater... To know that there is life throughout the universe gives a new meaning to life itself. And I could hope that maybe, just maybe, one of those civilizations got it right, for we certainly haven't.

Or how about this scenario? We find a radio signal from an intelligent civilization, and they're 500 million light years away. There's no way to communicate with them. They're probably already long dead. They'll never know about us, and we'll never know what happened to them. Is that good, or bad? Is that happy news, or sad?

That would be great news. Even though that civilization may be dead and gone, we have the knowledge that life has existed elsewhere. And that means life will continue to exist elsewhere. It will prove that we are, indeed, not alone and we share this universe with other lifeforms. It gives opportunity and hope.

We don't know where our technology will be in 100, 500 or 1000 years. As long as humanity can survive, one day we may just have the knowledge to defy physics and the laws of the universe to visit and explore the hypothetical ancient, deceased civilization you mention. And that... would be something remarkable.

Originally posted by predator0187
reply to post by The Shrike

 

With all due respect if we never made assumptions we would still be in the stone age.

We need to imagine as everything you see around you was someones thought at one point (manmade).

We cannot just stick in the boundaries of what we know or we will not learn, we have to imagine the most crazy things we possibly can because there is stuff out there that we couldn't even imagine.

There are plenty of things we know we don't know, but, there are even more things that we don't know we don't know.

I say keep dreaming, it's the only way to get anywhere...

Pred...

P.S. I hope that made sense, if it didn't you get my drift.

Assuming is a normal stance but assuming is not the same thing as fact. You can assume that there is other life in the universe, of course human-like. But assuming such can not be made into a factual explanation as is being done with "aliens/ETs". We have no evidence for them, regardless of how many UFOs are reported/photograhed/filmed/videographed.

So I know that we can imagine our butts off but the bottom line is that imagination exists only in the mind.

Originally posted by Gazrok
As has already been stated, it's not that the skeptics doubt ET life, or even intelligent ET life...they doubt that we are being visited by them.

And, there is a solid reason for this doubt. Traveling at the speed of our fastest rockets, it would take us hundreds of years to reach even the next closest star! That's a long trip....(especially if we get there and it's one of the more common systems, and no life world is there...indeed, we've detected them elsewhere, but not in our closest neighbor).

The thing is, the sheer statistics suggest the our galaxy is teeming with life, but even still, it's only a small percentage of star systems in the galaxy that are likely to harbor it. If it takes us that long to reach just the nearest one, it could take us (or theoretically, any aliens) numerous lifetimes before stumbling upon another.

However, what the skeptics doubt, is that these aliens have developed some means of travel that defies physics as we understand it. So, if these beings have developed an interstellar drive that can somehow bridge these distances, THEN we have a much higher probability of visitation.

Sorry, I'm a skeptic and I doubt that there is any other life than us in creation. Now, since this is an Alien & UFOs forum, and we are dealing every day with the reality of UFOs it could be argued that said UFOs contain a life form that is not human and that they come from somewhere else in the universe. There is no evidence for that assumption and until a proven alien life form makes a major public appearance and somehow provides the kind of irrefutable evidence that proves he's/she's from somewhere else in the universe the only consideration we can give said UFO occupants is that they are from the future. Major leap in theorizing but it sounds better than a space traveler.

You know dictionaries are a GOOD thing.
I posted this in another thread where I was being slammed for being a "skeptic":

I'm not sure if you now... but true skeptics need proof not blind faith, and even then it is not a "sure fact". Just because something is called "true", a skeptic needs proof of some kind to accept it as true, or closest to "true".

I know that flies in the face of religions, and in the case of religion, I am an agnostic/skeptic,

In the case of UFO being truly alien, I am also agnostic and skeptical, until REAL proof is available, then I will need to re-evaluate.
Even then I will be as unsure of that "knowledge" as I am about the random human.
Also see Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
en.wikipedia.org...

skep·tic [skep-tik] –noun 1. a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual. 2. a person who maintains a doubting attitude, as toward values, plans, statements, or the character of others. 3. a person who doubts the truth of a religion, esp. Christianity, or of important elements of it. 4. ( initial capital letter ) Philosophy . a. a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible. b. any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind. a. a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible. b. any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind.

dictionary.reference.com...

That being said pure probability says life is out there in a multitude of varying forms. I say it is not "proven" to have visited us.

Originally posted by FireMoon
I have to take issue with this one Gaz. I am old enough to remember when one of the very cornerstones of the sceptics argument was. There is absolutely no proof intelligent life exists elsewhere...

Let's leave out the fantasy part about there being no chance of planetary systems because, whilst I don't know your age I know Carl Sagan was my favourite sceptic and his TV show about the cosmos was over 30 years ago. So a fair bit of time has passed since we suspected planets to be all around some other stars in our galaxy.

We are still left with a bold cornerstone of the sceptical argument:

There is absolutely no proof intelligent life exist elsewhere

Can you supply this proof or point me in the direction of it?

I'd love to see it - until such times I'll go with suspecting through statistics that it is elsewhere but without proof I can only call it with what I've got; No proof of it existing.

Feel free to clap my invisible pink unicorn though whilst we wait for it to arrive*.

-m0r

*Invisible pink pony was to show that the theory of something existing because someone claims it does does not make it any more real than the claim itself. It's an atheist argument that is well known and is not intended to cause offence or make anyone feel offended.

reply to post by m0r1arty

Sorry but firstly i didn't say there were no other planetary systems i said the chances where they were nowhere near as common as was hoped and that's exactly what the majority of astronomers postulated and was given as accepted fact. If you need the technical explanation why, sure here goes.In multiple star systems it was thought that the gravity pull of one star on another would totally rule out the formation of planets from any of the matter surrounding a star. As binary stars make up 50% of the known stars that rules half out from the very start and at the time many astronomers truly believed something in the order of 80% of stars might turn out to be binaries.The thinking on this had a logic to it as they assumed the closer to the galactic centre the higher the number of multiple star systems due to the relative closeness of the stars. It was also believed that many stars simply didn't have the needed accretion disc material to form a planet or planets as, at the time, there was no actual evidence of this. The abiding model at the time was that , in all probability, planetary systems were indeed rare, let alone those that might support any kind of life. From memory, many postulated that in our entire galaxy there might be 100 planets capable of supporting life and possibly a little as 10. It might seem strange to contemplate that now however, that was the prevailing model, even in the 1960s that many astronomers adhered to. Those who claimed otherwise were, at that time, the "heretics".