American Doom!

reply to post by civilchallenger

The second option is to voluntarily help out those who are having health care problems without being forced to. You ASSUME people never would give money to charity without being forced to, but the assumption is both offensive and wrong.

People give some money voluntarily to charity, of course, I never said they NEVER give. But would it be enough to pay for modern public healthcare for all? Of course not. Therefore you cannot rely only on the charity, and my point still stands - choose between the evil of moderate property theft used to pay for national healthcare, or the evil of letting majority of poor peoples health deteriorate because of easily curable conditions (some minority would probably be taken care of by voluntary charity, I never said it would not).

reply to post by DABIGRAGU


What you say is a black and white scenario. Life is not that simple.
Under democrats ordinary people do better, that’s an established fact.
Under republicans ONLY rich people prosper, that’s also an established fact.

Now that doesn’t say democrats are all good and republicans are all bad, but it does demonstrate who ordinary people should support on the most part, because the policies they support [ democrats] are better for average people.

Originally posted by km1550
reply to post by gncnew

 

"he hard-core right does not care about "giving money to non-whites"... they care about adhering to the constitution. Right or wrong - they believe that this nation is great because it follows an inspired set of documents that clearly define the best attempt at government the world's ever seen."

I have never read such a misinformed, nationalistic, empty rhetoric.

I suggest you go back to school and learn your history -- specifically the facts about American imperialism on behalf of the right's favorite son -- corporations.

OMG - I said the hard core right, not the republicans, the wigs, or any other specific political "party". American imperialism was essentially a descendant of European imperialism. Manifest Destiny came from the idea that the colonies had a "right" to expand.

Progress was a natural evolution of the imperial mindset, and industrial progress was the tool used for that evolution.

Corporations (I love how you use the term like its some kind of evil entity) are nothing more than conglomerates of people with invested capital trying to make a profit - that is after all the actual purpose of working.

Please don't pretend to be well educated and look down your nose at me because I didn't bother to go into a four page diatribe about political theory. Over simplified - maybe, but also easy to read and understand unlike the blathering this OP has all over.

Oh - and for the record - "history" and "opinion" are two very different monsters... you seem to confuse them though.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Can you get a chart that includes Obama's numbers?

And, interesting factoid here - Congress spends the money.... who was in charge of Congress at the time... that is actually the more pertinent fact....

Hint: the parties will be reversed.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by lucid eyes

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
For the GOP, it was never about the deficit, or spending, because traditionally Republicans have always outspent Democrats.

You mean invested more than the Democrats.

Lets go back to grade-school and learn how it works: Mrs. Muffin could spend a 1000 Dollars on a Chocolate-Making Machine or 100 Dollars on Chocolate. What do you suppose she`ll do? If she's a Democrat she`ll "save money" and buy the chocolate.

You do realize that is the exact opposite of how the current right/left mentality is

the right is flipping everyone out because the dems spent 1000 bucks on a chocolate making machine when all we needed was 100 bucks worth of chocolates for now...dismissing how this can possibly be a good thing down the line.

-sighs-

at least stick to the proper talking points.

Cough Cough... you mean the $1000 chocolate machine called "Health Care Reform"???

ROFL... wow.

And I already replied to the post with the "charts" showing Dem v/s Rep spending by presidnet... but if you'll remember your civics 101 class - Congress does the spending, so we really need to look at money spent v/s party in congress.

The irony is that many people on unemployment voted the GOP back in congress. This is the same party that plans to end their unemployment benefit extensions.

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by Victor03

 

And you are a right loon who has NO MORALITY, SENSE, AND YOU ARE ANTI-AMERICAN, AND PRO RICH BOY

And you know this how? It's amazing how quickly you seem to want to jump out there and judge everyone. I'm glad the morality police left you in charge...

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by Victor03

 

Your Beloved George Bush murdered those american troops in the Iraq war that was based on a lie. And people like you have enabled the murder of young americans by people like Bush and Cheney.

It is becasue of your macho man america is always right- nazi-like mentality that our american boys are dead. I hope you and your ilk can sleep at night with all your fake macho man death wishes.

Ok - time out.

Are you sure you're from America? You're posts sound like that dude with the heavy accent that calls me when I'm late on my credit card bill.

And in case you've not noticed - Obama is also "murdering american boys"...

Are you for real? Seriously - this kind of feels like an episode of MTV's "Punked".

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by Mykahel

 

What you and others refuse to understand is that they are outsourcing the good jobs overseas becasue the politicians are being bribed, democrats and republicans to let them do it so a select few can become filthy rich at the expense of the middle class and the American economy.

Thats the issue you guys dont want to see

Yep - it has nothing to do with insane legislation that make hiring American workers so expensive that producing goods that can be competitively priced in American markets is impossible with the cost of labor so high.

It's not what they have to pay the workers... it's the taxes and benefits that they have to absorb that drive the cost up.

Ask Steve Jobs - huge Left Wing supporter... and guess where his iPods are produced.

. ... I'm still laughing at your "American Boys" post...

Originally posted by signal2noise

Originally posted by inforeal
I AM A HUMANITARIAN who believes in helping people.

OK, I have a question for you.

If you believe in helping people, and you think the Dems believe in helping people, then how come Clinton didn't go into Rwanda to help the people there when an actual genocide was taking place???

The real question would be why this cat isn't in Darfur helping people.. or in the local soup kitchen for that matter.

Seems there are way too many people ready to yell and scream about evil rich people ... but never get up off their own arse to do anything...

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by signal2noise

 

Becasue Clinton is not a good human being.

I am not a democrat, but when they support issues that I think will help human beings I support them, when they do things like NAFTA, Support Isreal [ things democrats do as well as republicans] I dont support that.

What if they support Israel feeding hungry people in Africa?

Is that bad?

What if they send millions of pounds of rice and grain to Africa?

What if they dump ree-donk-you-luss ammounts of cash into AIDS research in Africa?

What if they spend millions on rebuilding Haiti?

Oh ... wait, they already do that...

By the way - what have you done?

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by sdcigarpig

 

Other countries haven’t gutted their manufacturing and let greedy selfish capitalists ruin their economy like those in the US, such as Germany, and China, nor Japan.

Nor do they pay their executives the obscene way that they do in America.

You just wont or don’t understand that we are loosing good jobs to outsourcing.

I have lived it.

I was in the auto industry and the IT industry and each of those industries use to have millions of good middle class jobs. Not anymore.

Any country has the right to protect its citizens from predatory capitalist practices, so the national economy can serve the good of all not just a few capitalists’ ventures.

Auto and IT... that's some cross training there...

I think you're just flat making stuff up now... seriously... Are you ok with Hollywood Actors making millions but not people who actually employ thousands of people?

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by civilchallenger

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by sdcigarpig

 

All civilized countries in the world have national health care. It isn’t perfect BUT PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTRIES DON’T DIE IN THE STREET!

This is wrong. Taking without permission is uncivilized. National Health Care requires property theft. Therefore, all civilized countries do *not* have any nationalized health care. Any country that has nationalized health care is uncivilized.

A blog post from a Canadian reader of the New York Times:

I'll tell you one thing.
I had been offered a CEO position in an American small corporation, living in Canada (where i head a Canadian corporation) I asked myself:
Where do i want to raise my kids?
In a country that has universal healthcare, almost free education, a higher life expectancy than America, much less poverty and childbirth death, where my kids go to public schools and there is almost no racism, with the same liberties as America and roughly 2% of taxes more.
....or in America.
The choice is clear, I'm renouncing higher pay and a lot of perks to stay in Canada, where democracy is really a democracy, even if imperfect, and not a plutocracy, because this is what America has become, a very sad day for all of us former admirers of a lofty ideal of society that unfortunately doesn't exist anymore.

Seems like you have NO IDEA what being civilized means.

Seems like you guys are all being dippy. The original post quoted "PEOPLE DIE IN THE STREET!" ... whaaa?

Where are people dying in the street in the U.S.? You can walk into any ER in the nation and have to be treated for any life threatening condition regardless of ability to pay...

Why are you guys actually debating anything based on this loon's statements?

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by civilchallenger
Your whole philosophy is based on the idea that human beings are uncivilized brutes who can not be trusted to be generous and help each other out. My philosophy is based on the idea that humans learn to support each other without being forced to do so by the government.

Yeah right. Your "philosophy" means no interstate highways, no money for research and education and let's just go back to stone age. And, by the way, emergency room is not really healthcare, it's mitigating an emergency.

Interstates were developed for the military btw... and education used to be run by the church... jus sayin'

Originally posted by Greensboro1978
The irony is that many people on unemployment voted the GOP back in congress. This is the same party that plans to end their unemployment benefit extensions.

edit on 4-11-2010 by Greensboro1978 because: changes

ROFL... maybe they didn't want more unemployment... maybe they wanted a job?

reply to post by inforeal


It is stilllllllllll amazing to me

that folks . . . any literate folks . . . particularly on ATS,

are soooooooooooooooo terminally unaware . . . to be extremely unwarrantedly polite . . .

about

SATANIC GLOBALISM.

. . . and it's control of all sides against the middle.

. . . and of the current Traitor-In-Chief's efforts toward destroying the economy, food production, freedoms . . . the list goes on and on and on.

Ahhhh wellllll, the globalists have done a great job of dumbing down the populace and propagandizing all the sheeple into mindless robots.

Such posts are ample proof of that.

Ah shoot. They disabled the vid. Here are the lyrics:

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Just sayin'.

reply to post by buddhasystem


You say I'm a penny-pincher. Wrong. As it turns out, I'm a generous person just as studies tracking the generosity of fiscal conservatives would predict. The penny-pinching fiscal conservatives are the ones usually behind charity because we believe in charity over extortion. Its the liberals in love with Uncle Sam who are the penny-pinchers when it comes to charity. Get your facts straight. I have no objection to people such as yourself being forced to pay taxes because you actually support the extortion your self and therefore its almost justice (though does not go far enough) that you should have to pay them your self. I have no problem with tax-lovers being forced into the slavery they force upon others. Just don't expect me and other people with a higher view of them self and humanity in general to go along with your scheme.

Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

•Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

•Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George W. Bush.

See Citation: www.startribune.com...

Then you say that government is the core driver of technology. As always, the facts will deny your grossly wrong pro-extortion claims at every step. Lets do some joint research now where as always the libertarians will win (as with every study out there since they always do). Here is what we can check. We can look at two different points of data. The first is government spending as % of GDP. The second is number of patents filed. If you are correct, then governments with a lot of spending as % of GDP will also have a lot of patent applications. If I am correct, the countries with the lowest spending as % of GDP will have the highest number of patent applications. The question is will you change your mind the study proves you wrong? I'm willing to change my mind if the study shows I am wrong. After your reply the game will be on and I'll do what I can to look up the data. I think the facts will put statists to complete embarrassment. I'm not going to say the study can be perfect as patent applications may not be the best measure of innovations but none the less it is a decent measure and I will accept the results.

The question should be asked of all of us, and one that we must think of very carefully is the question: Why? As many of us have debated and looked at the original post of the op, considered the different problems that are affecting the nation, and argued if it was the Republicans or the Democrats or both that caused this problem, the question still must be asked Why is this such an issue and with all of the resources that the United States have, why has this continued to plague the country for this long for so many years? These problems that are affecting us, did not start with Obama, nor did they start with Bush, they go back for years, and years, to prior administrations and congresses. The signs are present, yet here again the question must be asked, Why is no one paying attention? As we sit and argue and debate, there are no solutions that any one is discussing or trying to help find a way out of the mess that we are in. All of us are doing exactly what we have always done, crying about the problem yet very few are trying to come up with solutions, there in lies the problem and issue, and the question once again: Why? Why does it matter if the republicans or the democrats are in office? We all know and have seen in years past, that neither party is the solution, yet we choose to keep electing them to office. No one wants to admit that just maybe, the problem is not with the party, but with us. Why are we so ingrained to one party or the other, that no one is willing to consider a candidate of the other party who just might be the correct person for the job, but cause they have a D or an R next to their name, we choose not to vote for them? Perhaps if the bias ideology of what is viewed associated with D or R is let go, and more to the point we ask the candidate themselves Why do you want the job to be elected, not what your think your opponent will do, but Why you personally want the job and why you think you can do a better job, then just maybe, we may get someone who is going to do the job. The idea of the government for the people has been around for a long time, so the final question is: Why are we not treating these people like employees and looking at them as employers?

When you start out as a child you are liberal/democrat. As you reach maturity you become conservative/republican.