Alcohol 'more harmful than heroin' says Prof David Nutt

Originally posted by Extralien

So what should we do? Does there need to be more control on alcohol? more education? The banning of it? Tighter restrictions on where it can be consumed like the smoking ban?

People turn to alcohol...for a wide variety of reasons. Thing is, if we outright ban alcohol here in the UK...well, you know how much we love spending our Sunday in the pub. There will be riots. Maybe tighter restrictions but it'll still affect the public a lot. Not only that, but think about the LARGE number of businesses that would fail.

Yet I think it’d be a wise decision to somehow reduce the number of people turning to that option. There are just too many disadvantages to it, not to mention negative externalities to other people e.g. behaviour and such. I’ve found that education doesn’t really work...nor adverts on the tv...they eventually turn out to be too annoying and people just switch off the tv.

But it being more harmful than heroin? May be so...yet heroin seems to kill you quicker and nicer whereas alcohol could be seen to be slower and painful.

Too many eggs can do alot of harm to you
too many cheeseburgers will clog arteries
too much water can be harmful
too much Vitamin E can cause thinning of the blood

and the list goes on.....

Too much of anything is bad, but nobody is touching my whiskey bottles!!!

Furthermore I think this article sucks, the poison it speaks of seems to be referring to social poison as to how it affects people around hardcore drinkers... what kind of scientific article is that?
It's also incredibly vague, it says things without saying it

BS Article!

The professors little graph seems to be just measuring the substances impact on society without taking any account whatsoever of how many people actually use it.

Of course a fully legal drug enjoyed by most of the worlds adult population is going to effect more people then a highly illegal substance only used by very small groups of people.

Is he a professor of stating the blindingly obvious.

If you put the damage caused by falling off of ladders on the same list it would probably work out to be more damaging then crack according to the stupid formula they are using

It's like saying, if a million people drink and one dies from it and one person injects poison into their eyes and dies from it drinking and injecting poison into your eyes are equally harmful

Originally posted by SKUNK2

IF this study proves that criminalization of hard drugs lowers harm to society, explain why countrys like Holland where all drugs have been de-criminalised have much much lower cases of drug use through out the entire spectrum(soft to hard drugs)?

Soft drugs like cannabis are not decriminalized in Holland, they are illegal by law. The Dutch tolerate the use of cannabis in coffee shops, but if you walk down the street with a joint you will be stopped by the police (in theory).
Portugal has legalized all drugs for personal use which has lead to a steep decline in drug related offences and the amount of drug users has gone down dramatically.

Originally posted by TKDRL
I don't buy that at all. All 12 heroin users I knew are dead, I know plenty of people that are hardcore alcoholics that are over 50. Also, not every person that drinks alcohol is an alcoholic, or even an idiot. Name a single regular herion user that is not an addict. If people want to put harmful substances in their body, that is their right IMO. When they go out and do something stupid that hurts other, then yes they should be punished.

Heroin is a painkiller according to professor Nutt. I myself have to take a legalized version of an opiate in the form of codeine prescribed by my GP. Both come from the same source of opium poppies. Heroin is derived from morphine, again a well established painkiller.

What professor Nutt is saying is that from a sociological point of view alcohol does the most damage. I refer you to every town centre in every town in the UK on a friday or saturday night. The majority of problems are caused by drunks who feel the need to fight, vandalize stuff, or clogg up most A.E. departments.
He is not saying that all alcohol consumers are problem drinkers, neither is he saying that all heroin addicts are criminals. There is however a percentage on both sides that have a serious problem.
Heroin in itself does not kill, it's what it's cut with that is the main cause of death. If you inject heroin cut with rat poison chances are you will become seriously ill or die.
If all drugs were legalized there would be quality control, and the black market would almost immediately disappear taking all drug related crime with it.

Prohibition is not the answer, it criminalizes the users. The alcohol prohibition in the 1920's in the USA did not work, all it did was make the criminals very rich very quickly. Today's war on drugs has failed, see how it affects Mexico. The UK cannabis market is estimated to be worth 6 billion pounds a year, all that money goes to the criminals running this market.
If it were legalized the government could tax it, using that to improve the NHS or even to reduce the governments' deficit (I can dream, can't I).
What people tend to forget is that alcohol is a drug, just as caffeine, tobacco, cannabis, aspirin, etc

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
maybe if we had a sensible drugs policy those 12 people may still be alive. Heroin kills its users by overdose or contamination. As its bought on the black market you never know the strength it has been cut to. If heroin is delivered at the right dose, it is not harmful to the user apart from being addictive.

I agree.

I'm not saying everyone should go out and use drugs - quite the opposite. But for alcoholics or not - one can go and purchase legal, govt controlled alcohol and, apart from one's stupidity, rely on it to be what it is. And in moderate, sensible doses, it's fine.

It still surprises me that drugs are given the taboo they have, given what I've seen of alcohol abuse, by both friends and family. I know people who have used hard drugs - not loads but several. And they seem no better or worse that people I know who drink frequently.

Of course you have extremes in both sides - but that shouldn't dictate the rule for everyone. I mean, just because someone uses as knife to commit a crime doesn't mean all knives should illegal to use/own. And likewise with drink/substances.

Originally posted by BlackPoison94

Thing is, if we outright ban alcohol here in the UK...well, you know how much we love spending our Sunday in the pub. There will be riots. Maybe tighter restrictions but it'll still affect the public a lot. Not only that, but think about the LARGE number of businesses that would fail.

The amount of people put out of work by banning alcohol has to be THE biggest reason as to why not much is done about it's social problems.
Money is the problem, alcohol is the reaction, employment is the solution.

All those people out of work and no alcohol for them to consume. There would surely be an uprising as the effects of alcohol would not be there to help subdue the masses.

It can only be a matter of time where massive restrictions will be put onto it. An outright ban is possibly the only way, like putting it in class A.

Alcohols strangle hold on society has got to loosen. It may mean the legalising of one particular plant, but not everyone smokes. Especially after the big run on anti-smoking over the last few years.

Big issue, big problems and very hard to fix

I don't think alcohol as a substance is more harmful, heroine will kill more individual users percentage wise than alcohol will. However the Professor is taking many other factors into account, including the effects alcohol has on other people around the user. A simple walk through your average medium sized town on a Friday or Saturday night will show you that alcohol is the greater problem. I live in a reasonably nice area but i wouldn't bother to walk through the town on certain nights now because gangs of very drunk morons spill out of the pubs and clubs at all hours.

However i think it's clear that alcohol is far more harmful than many of the illegal drugs. Marijuana, Ecstasy, '___', Mushrooms, none of these are anywhere near as harmful as alcohol. This btw is coming from someone who has never taken an illegal drug. I just think some reality and sense needs to be brought into the debate.

Originally posted by Extralien
All those people out of work and no alcohol for them to consume. There would surely be an uprising as the effects of alcohol would not be there to help subdue the masses.

It can only be a matter of time where massive restrictions will be put onto it. An outright ban is possibly the only way, like putting it in class A.

Alcohols strangle hold on society has got to loosen. It may mean the legalising of one particular plant, but not everyone smokes. Especially after the big run on anti-smoking over the last few years.

Big issue, big problems and very hard to fix

Sorry but the idea of banning something is utterly stupid, just check prohibition laws in the USA and how the mafia rebelled and supplied illicit booze. In fact many argue that it was the illegal trade in booze that gave the mafia the funds to set up as a serious and powerful organisation. The moment you ban something is the moment you give criminals the opportunity to make vast sums of money.

Make everything legal, properly regulate it so that it's safer and tax it to make money. Then use that money to help solve the problems involved, and of course by making it legal you take away much of the mystic and rebel nature of certain substances that cause some people to take them in the first place.

OMG!! Now we have scientific proof of the evils of alcohol compared to other substances.

With that proof in hand, it's time to organize a movement, march on Washington D.C and DEMAND that our elected representatives outlaw this dangerous and evil liquor. Why, we can even establish a brand new bureaucracy to oversee the "war on alcohol" under the command of it's very own, newly minted Czar!! Thousands of Agents marching across America steadfastly confounding every base urge of low-life drunkards and those who pander to their craven desires! Job creation at it's governmental best. What a wonderful idea.....

Oh! Wait! We already tried that AND IT DIDN'T WORK!!

'Nuff said? LMAO

reply to post by davespanners


its not the purpose of the study to take into account how many poeple use it. Look at tobacco on the list according to their findings it does less harm than heroin , crack, meth & cocain but is used by alot more people.

the purpose is to quantify the damage done by these drugs in society at the current usage levels.

www.bbc.co.uk...

commons.wikimedia.org...:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence)_nl.svg

This graph shows that alcohol and cigarettes are more dangerous then marijuana, ecstasy, and LCD... SHOCKING!!

last name says it all.

its only more harmful because it kills you a little slower, and is less addictive. but besides killing you quicker and being so addictive you'll turn gay, yeah heroin aint so bad.

reply to post by Extralien


No doubt.

I figured it all out yesterday...coincidentally.
A little buzzed and got to feeling spiritual peaceful and calm...
Yesterday was a very illuminating day for me.

I have drank alcohol before (spent time in rehab before it was fashionable) and I smoked many cigarettes so I can compare the drugged effects of some of the most common mood altering substances to each other.

On a clean system even caffeine and sugar have a huge drug effect, life changing and uncomfortable really (almost rushed self to hospital /caffeine overdose - heart pounding out of chest)

but eventually we get used to the effect, we get hooked and it's usage becomes ingrained, necessary and we can't give them up when we try...(though we always think we could)

like any other addictive drug.

Anyway noticing the calming effect of the narcotic - I began to ask myself ...This seems to bring me closer to nature, my creator and is inspiring creative thoughts. I also want to go and lie in the sun.

Alcohol and cigarettes do not make you feel anything like that.

We all know the mark on society...what heartbreak, death, destruction and dependency, the ruined lives and families that 2 of the most powerful legal drugs, alcohol and cigarettes are responsible for leaving us with

So I was asking myself...

Why is it a governing body that saw fit and continues to legalize the deadly and disastrous chemicals of tobacco and alcohol....why is it this same governing body has always dragged it's heels on weed?

Like all of a sudden they have a conscience?

As if to say "...with alcohol and cigarettes - all the associative, resultant, domestic violence brutality death and destruction is fine, but
we absolutely draw the line on sleeping eating and giggling yourself to death!"

Spare me. That is quite impossible so it must be something else.
And then it hit me like a ton of bricks...

It is all part of a control and kill agenda.

We are not supposed to get healthy, happy or "find God" and any "God given" herb or plant that might bring us closer to the "natural" happiness, relaxation, peace and love we are supposed to enjoy is forbidden.

Yet.. cigarettes and alcohol - those insidious, planned and deliberate tools to keep us sick, unhealthy and manageable.... are fine.

We die early without anyone having to pay retirement funds. We do not linger living past working age so we do not become a burden on the system.

The rich want to keep their tax cuts and raise our retirement age.

Hello???

Why should the elite 1% care if we die.
The wealthy at the wheel here, do not pay for our health care.
The less poor pay the hospitalization costs for the most poor.

Insane, I know.
I am having an insane week.

nutt, hahahahah.

seriously though this study shows nothing, and is very misleading. its important to remember that it shows economic impact etc. on society as a whole, which has nothing to do with what you should choose to put in your body. if we chose based on that criterea then we would all be eating mcdonalds 3 meals a day and drinking flouridated rum prozac milkshakes for breakfast, instead of only 90% of the northern hemisphere doing that.

it also shows that methamphetamine has less of a negative effect on society as a whole than Cannabis does, which i personally find to be offensive.

Originally posted by Myendica
last name says it all.

I couldn't help but think the same thing after I wasted a few minutes of my existence reading that steaming pile of bowl sludge.

Originally posted by iNTERPLANETARyR.O.M.E.O.
nutt, hahahahah.
seriously though this study shows nothing, and is very misleading.

It shows a hell of a lot, and to me it makes perfect sense. The Misuse of Drugs Act in the UK is very outdated and needs to be brought up to date. From a scientific point of view alcohol is a very destructive drug when abused. I have met plenty of alcoholics in my time, you know the ones that buy cheap and nasty cider in 2 litre bottles from the local off-licence, and because it's so cheap it's easy for them to afford it. But behind the cheap alcohol are very sad stories of people that can only find solace in being drunk.

I used to smoke tobacco and it was hellish to give up smoking. I also used to smoke cannabis and never ever did I have any problems giving it up. So from a scientific angle tobacco has a higher dependency rate than cannabis. Professor Nutt is right in saying that tobacco is more harmful from a scientific and sociological point of view, just as alcohol is

Why can I get an opiate (codeine) legally on prescription but not a plant (cannabis) when the latter has far less side effects than the first. Why is a hard drug (alcohol) freely available and in some places sold at a lower price per litre than water?
Do you honestly think that if alcohol was a new drug that it would be freely available? I don't think so... it would be banned and probably made a class A drug.

The only way to deal with all drugs is to legalize them all. Regulate the sale and distribution, take it away from the mafia types who make obscene amounts of money out of drugs. Have a look at what they have done in Portugal where this is exactly what they've done. The country hasn't gone to pot (excuse the pun), in fact they have less of a drug problem than anywhere else in world.

Prof Nutt has his own reasons for being so down on alcohol, he is trying to develop a ' safe ' alternative

www.timesonline.co.uk...

I wonder why more people don't brew their own beer/wine/cider, it is very very easy, and a whole lot cheaper than buying it. The worst part about brewing is bottling, it takes forever lmao. On the issue of drug prohibition, I agree, they are messed up. I used to love mary, we saw each other at least once a day, more often than not multiple times a day. I broke up with her without a single problem, I have yet to kick this stupid cigarette "habit" though. Hell it was easier to break up with mary, than it was to stop playing video games :/

I've seen what heroin can do to people. I have family members hooked on it. I aslo have friends that died from it. I had it offerd to me on several occasions when I was in my late teens. I had a friend die in prison from lukemia as a result of the drugs in the area being cut with cancer meds.

What people put in they're body is none of my buisness or anyone elses including the government. I think all substances should be leagal and regulated. Prohibition does not work all it does is create a black market. Billions of $$$$ leave the country and go to the king pens when that money could be spent here on treatment and education.

As for alcohol I don't drink I quit 3 years ago. Everytime I drank I felt like I had been poisened the next day. But others want to drink it's none of my buisness. If people spent half thier time on self improvement instead of wasting it being concerd with what others do the world would be a better place.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Too many eggs can do alot of harm to you
too many cheeseburgers will clog arteries
too much water can be harmful
too much Vitamin E can cause thinning of the blood

and the list goes on.....

Too much of anything is bad, but nobody is touching my whiskey bottles!!!

Furthermore I think this article sucks, the poison it speaks of seems to be referring to social poison as to how it affects people around hardcore drinkers... what kind of scientific article is that?
It's also incredibly vague, it says things without saying it

BS Article!

Also from a social perspective, we don't know how many other people would try heroin if they didn't have access to alcohol... and likewise, how many people would not use alcohol if they don't have access to cannabis...

there are so many different variables that effect these results it's hard to really draw any conclusions.