How does Jesus' death save us?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The Messiah concept is a human and it's not a savior concept. Why do we need Jesus to forgive sin? I thought Jesus was God. Why couldn't he forgive sin before he died? That doesn't make sense.
Atonment
Read these articles and see where I'm coming from.

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

God added humanity to himself when he created us. God was never supposed to become a human. Why didn't he become a bull when the Jews at mount before Moses came down? Don't you see where I'm coming from.

No I don't. This was God's plan all along, to glorify the Son. That's why every single feast and ceremony in the OT was a picture of an event in either the life, death, or resurrection of Jesus. They were ordained by God for the purpose of providing a picture of the sacrifice He'd offer for man on the cross at Calvary. (Mt. Moriah)

One example:

Abraham and Issac

God commanded Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice on Mt. Moriah. God would later offer His own Son Jesus as a sacrifice on Mt. Moriah. Issac was laid on sticks and wood. Jesus was nailed to a wood cross.

I could go on and on for pages. What is especially jaw-dropping is the perfect picture of the crucifixion in the story of the angel of death and the Hebrews in Egypt and the ceremony with the two goats on the Day of Atonement.

EVERYTHING God did in the OT was a picture, shadow, or type of the life, death, or crucifixion of Jesus His only begotten Son.

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The Messiah concept is a human and it's not a savior concept. Why do we need Jesus to forgive sin? I thought Jesus was God. Why couldn't he forgive sin before he died? That doesn't make sense.
Atonment
Read these articles and see where I'm coming from.

There is a monumental difference between forgiving sin, and making atonement for sin. And secondly, Daniel spoke to us first about the Moshiach in Daniel Chapter 9.

And finally, quit linking me to articles, do you have any personal beliefs? Or do you just copy/paste your Theology from the work and study of others? I could post link after link of stuff to, but that doesn't accomplish anything.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Jesus! You still don't understand where I am coming from. God provided the ram after he wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son. Was there a ram before Jesus died no? So you're saying God sent his only son to Earth for the forgiveness of sin? Do you see Jesus as a perfect spirit as well? You argue that Jesus was unblemished of sin. To be frank, this dogma genuinely frightens me. This is the logic that pagan societies used in offering up their children in human sacrifices -- they reasoned that their children were sinless.

Blood Sacrifice
Did Jesus fit any of these qualifies? Nope!

There are a number of requirements for a sacrifice to be valid or it is completely disqualified and will be an abomination to G-d. These requirements are as follows: 1. The sin offering must be brought forth by the person seeking atonement, and slaughtered either by the sinner or by the priest. 2. Death must be caused by a sharp, perfect blade cutting across the neck, resulting in blood loss and swift death. 3. The offering must be physically unblemished. 4. In the case of mammal offerings (bulls, lambs, etc.) the offering must be less than one year old. 5. In the case of mammal offerings, the mammal must have cloven hooves and chew cud. 6. The sacrifice must be brought at the Temple 7. The sacrifice must have its blood taken by a priest and sprinkled on the altar. 8. The sacrifice must be salted. Since Jesus did not fulfill even one of the eight precepts listed above, it's clear that his death could not be the atoning sacrifice Christians claim it is.

Jesus was never a concept of the OT. He never was the Messiah, God or a Prophet. You need to realize this before you worship a man less then God!

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The Messiah concept is a human and it's not a savior concept. Why do we need Jesus to forgive sin? I thought Jesus was God. Why couldn't he forgive sin before he died? That doesn't make sense.
Atonment
Read these articles and see where I'm coming from.

This is false from your link:

Although following 70 C.E., historical conditions made it impossible to continue the sacrificial system no innovation was necessary, only a readjustment of what already existed. During the Babylonian exile the captive Israelites repented and were allowed to return to their homeland. Yet, they had no means of offering a blood sacrifice; they could only offer contrite repentant prayer.

The Hebrews in the wilderness had the Tabernacle of Aaron with an alter and they had alters made of stone. Not to mention, the reason the Jews were allowed to return to their homeland after 70 years of Babylonian captivity is because God previously declared they would be delivered into the hand of the Babylonians for a period of only 70 years. This declaration is in the book of Jeremiah.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I have to link to claim my source! You need to study the true word of God. Not the words interpreted wrongly by your priest. You're a silly believer of Jesus. Who like many others say one thing then the other. You say "Jesus is God!" then "Jesus is the son of God". Boy of boy.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Read the links properly and you'll see where I'm coming from.
Animal sacrifices aren't only necessary. God forgives sin at will!

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I have to link to claim my source! You need to study the true word of God. Not the words interpreted wrongly by your priest. You're a silly believer of Jesus. Who like many others say one thing then the other. You say "Jesus is God!" then "Jesus is the son of God". Boy of boy.

The Father, the Son and the Spirit are GOD. I can say the Father is God, I can say the Son is God, and I can say the Spirit is God.

My "source" is the Bible, especially the Tanakh. Your "source" is some guy's website.

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Read the links properly and you'll see where I'm coming from.
Animal sacrifices aren't only necessary. God forgives sin at will!

Yes, God does forgive sin. But we are talking the ATONEMENT for sin.

Do you even know the purpose of the Day of Atonement from the OT?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Some guys website? You're sad! Really, really sad. God cannot be broken down and become human.
You need to study the OT. Not the Christian NT!
God in Judaism
Nature of God in Judaism
All about God in Judaism

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Do you? I doubt it! Jesus doesn't qualify for a sacrifice. Because he is a human. The sacrifice must be an animal. As well not mutilated which Jesus was.
www.jewsforjudaism.org...:jesus-death--remission-of-sin&catid=43:atonement&Itemid=487

Answer: According to the Hebrew Scriptures, the only animals permitted for sacrificial purposes are those that have split hooves and chew their cud. The carcass of an unclean animal deFILEs (Leviticus 11:26). On these grounds alone, human beings are disqualified for sacrificial purposes. Jesus, as a human being, was unfit for sacrificial purposes. An animal blood atonement offering must be physically unblemished (Leviticus 22:18-25). According to the evangelists, Jesus was physically abused prior to his execution (Matthew 27:26, Mark 15:15, John 19:1; John 20:25; Matthew 27:29, Mark 15:17, John 19:2). According to Paul, Jesus' circumcision constituted "mutilation" (Philippians 3:2) and is likened to "castration" (Galatians 5:12). As a result, Jesus would again be disqualified as a valid sacrifice. he New Testament's claim that Jesus' death was "one sacrifice for sin for all time" (Hebrews 10:12) is not supported by the Hebrew Scriptures. Mere death, no matter what was the extent of the preceding violence or pain, does not satisfy the biblical requirements for those times when a blood atonement sacrifice is offered. In a blood atonement offering the animal (clean species and unblemished) must actually die as a result of blood loss. That is why it is called "a blood atonement sacrifice." Jesus (unclean human species and blemished) did not die within the Temple precinct, at the hands of an Aaronic priest, or through the shedding of blood. Jesus' blood was not sprinkled on the altar by the Aaronic high priest (Leviticus 16:18-19). Animal sacrifice, offered as a blood atonement, must conform to the biblical guidelines set down in Leviticus 17:11: (a) Bloodshed (by means of shechitah--Deuteronomy 12:21), (b) Given solely to the Jewish people, (c) Blood sprinkled upon the Temple altar. Jesus' humanity, the physical state of his body, and the manner of his death (crucifixion) do not satisfy any blood atonement provisions found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

reply to post by oliveoil


Jesus died so that anyone who believes in him can ask for forgiveness for their sinful nature and not have to face eternal death. Its an open invitation to all of humanity to believe and be saved. All human beings are born with original sin except Jesus was not, so his sacrifice opens a path for us who were born with sin to be saved from our sinful nature and not be punished.

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Some guys website? You're sad! Really, really sad. God cannot be broken down and become human.
You need to study the OT. Not the Christian NT!
God in Judaism
Nature of God in Judaism
All about God in Judaism

1. No Christian claims God was "broken down and became man". The Word of God became flesh. Jesus is the "Word" of God. The Father and the Son, both God, are different. Yet bother are one. We are made in God's image. We are 3 persons in one. A soul, a spirit, and a body. Yet we all are "one" man or woman.

2. My Bible sitting right next to me has a complete copy of the Torah and the Tanakh. I have the OT. lol

3. "Testamant" means "COVENANT". We Christians are operating in God's New Covenant with man. The same covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Do you notice the last part of the sentence? God "WILL" forgive our iniquity, and God "WILL" remember our sins no more. This implies that under the old covenant God didn't forgive them and still remembered them.

Not so after the ultimate sin sacrifice for man. Jesus Christ.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Dear God! You still don't understand you never will. You claim Jesus was God in the flesh. Yet God cannot be broken down. Jesus is God, or he is the son of God. He was clean of sin. He had to die in order to forgive sin. You need to study the true word of God. Christianity is wrong.

FACT: No Jew prayed to Jesus prior to two thousand years ago before Jesus was born according to you.

FACT: Jews would have been unfamiliar with the concept of G-d in human form.

FACT: Jesus was, in essence, something that the Jews had not known.

FACT: Deuteronomy 13 specifically warns us that G-d will grant the power of miracles to people who would lead us astray from Judaism.

FACT: Deuteronomy 13 specifically says that Jews must not worship anything they had not previously known, no matter how many miracles the prophet performs, or how many events he predicts correctly.

Read the links I provided and become enlighten. Jesus is false.

reply to post by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet


Jesus is not a sacrifice in the way that an animal would be a sacrifice to God. The animal sacrifice laws were for humans to sacrifice to God. Jesus was a sacrifice by God of his only son for humans. Its a one time, unique thing, so there are no 'rules' about it. I know what you're going to say, You're going to bring up the Orisis-Dyonisus myths as examples of how it's not a 'one time unique thing.' I get that there are similarities to those stories and the story of Jesus Christ, but they are not exactly the same story and they come in different historical and religious contexts with profoundly different meanings. People are going to believe in Christ no matter how many old-time gods were born of virgins or resurrected from the dead.

reply to post by snusfanatic


I see know upon further inspection that this thread is a debate between those who believe and those who don't and neither side is going to change the other's mind. So I just want to state that I respect anyone on this thread who does not believe in Christ but will limit my activity on this thread to answering any questions the OP might have.

reply to post by snusfanatic


That is so ridiculous. They actually teach you this in Church? I feel for sorry for all the Christians who follow this bull.
Orginal Sin

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul's statement, "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430). According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell. Whether man is a sinner by nature or not is immaterial. Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it" (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and subsequent forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God's loving-kindness depends on right conduct and extends to all humanity.

reply to post by snusfanatic


Jesus is the one and only so of God? God created life but God cannot have children. Now you mention Jesus as a demigod. That's sad just sad.
Divine

The fact remains. Nowhere even in the New Testament is it taught that Jesus is part of a triune godhead. Nowhere does he make the claim that he was G-d. Nowhere in the New Testament is there the reason to believe that he is G-d.

reply to post by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet


Why would you feel sorry for anyone of any faith that is happy and lives their life not hurting others? Save pity for people who are bitter or unhappy with their lives.

reply to post by snusfanatic


I believe they need to turn to God. The real God. Which is the Jewish concept of God. But they poses free will and can believe what they want.