What about Scientology?!!

here is a bit of truth regarding the horrors of scientology

check out
www.xenutv.com...

Here are some quotes by L. Ron Hubbard

It should never be considered by anyone or under any circumstances that anything which can affect him could be beyond his ability to know the full nature of what he is experiencing. If any lesson is contained in Scientology, it is the lesson that the gates to all knowingness are open

Personal integrity is knowing what you know--What you know is what you know--And to have the courage to know and say what you have observed. And that is integrity and there is no other integrity.

Perception is knowing across a distance.

Fear is a state of imperception, fear is an unwillingness to confront.

All unknown is, is out of communication. All known is, is in communication.

To obtain certainty one must be able to observe.

All things are complex when they are poorly understood.

The evolution of knowledge is towards simplicity, not complexity.

When a man tries to erect the plans of a lifetime or a profession on data which he, himself, has never evaluated, he cannot possibly succeed.

Beginning to know that one doesn't now is not a lesson in humbleness but one in wisdom.

Data is your data only so long as you have evaluated it.

It is difficult to be responsible for something or control something unless you have knowledge of it.

As a society declines, it more and more resorts to authoritarian teaching and attempts increasingly to impress upon the individual that he must adjust to his environment and that he cannot adjust his environment to him.

People are always attempting to do more complicated things and consider this good. This isn't. What people are doing actually, is losing their ability to do simple things.

An individual is as alive as he has ideas. He's as aware as he has ideas.

A man is as well off as his goals and dreams are intact.

People seek happiness in various ways, hectically, seriously, desperately; but the odd part of it is that they find only what they themselves put there.

Inaction and indecision in the present is because of fear of consequences of the future.

Imagination is all right so long as you know it is imagination. It is only when one confuses it with reality that one gets into trouble.

What you've got to teach a man to learn, if you are going to teach him to learn anything, is you've got to teach him to face his own illusions.

If a man can dream, if a man can have goals, he can be happy and he can be alive. If he has no goals he doesn't even have a future.

Prejudice: A fixed, unqualified opinion, usually based on unhappy experience, substituting itself for reason.

The lowest level of reasoning is complete inability to differentiate, which is to say, identification.

The highest level of reasoning is complete differentiation.

Your enthusiasm and zest for existence comes mainly from your ability to differentiate.

Thinking is not particularly hard to learn. It consists merely of comparing a particular datum with the physical universe as it is known and observed.

Logic is the gradient scale of relating facts one to another.

When society at large is having a very rough time it contains a preponderance of individuals who cannot help and who cannot be helped.

A government wishing to deprave its people to the point where they will accept the most perfidious and rotten acts, abolishes first the concept of God, and in the wake of that destroys the family, with "free love", the intellectual with police-enforced idiocies, and so reduces a whole population to an estate somewhat below that of dogs.

A culture is as rich and as capable of surviving as it has imaginative artists, skilled men of science, a high ethic level, workable government, land and natural resources, in about that order of importance.

Never desert a group to which you owe your support.

A group is as capable as it contains capable individual members.

Reason which is afraid of force and reason which exists to keep force from hurting one is not reason.

Man's ability to handle destructive physical universe forces is far, far greater than his ability to handle himself.

Man cannot be controlled by force. Man is controlled only by his own willingness.

Man has a madness and that madness is called war.

When cruelty in the name of discipline dominates a race, that race has been taught to hate. And that race is doomed. The real lesson is to learn to love.

Any state which uses force is doomed to failure.

It requires real strength to love man. And to love him despite all invitations to do otherwise, all provocations and all reasons why one should not.

Some people cannot help. They can only injure and destroy. And if in the name of help they only injure and destroy, then know them carefully, for they are criminals.

The lowest confront there is is the confront of evil.

The road to ruin is paved with false information.

The human mind is capable of resolving the problem of the human mind.

In seeking to survive, a person still possessed of some vigor will seek to be and always asserts that he is right.

Beings on the way down don't believe they are wrong because they don't dare believe it. And so they do not change.

The common denominator of all life impulses is self-determinism.

A man without future goals is a worried and sick man.

The deterioration of the individual is the deterioration of his own determinism.

Interest is mainly kindled by the unpredictable.

You have to invent boredom to get bored.

If you want to last just move fast.

The more serious you take the game the less chance there is of winning.

Almost anyone, no mater his position, can remedy a situation no matter what's wrong if he or she really wants to.

Arrogance and force may win dominion and control but will never win acceptance and respect.

The man who has no impulse to set things right is insane.

The power of the individual is his ability to initiate the resolution of problems and execute the solutions.

Knowing about life would also have to include knowing about death.

Life is not much worth living if it cannot be enjoyed.

Never let it be said of you that you lived an amateur life.

An individual is evidently designed to be cause.

Life is a series of attained goals.

What is a great feat? It's something that can't be duplicated.

Never need praise, approval or sympathy.

People who get things done are at cause.

Full responsibility is not fault; it is recognition of being cause.

All real difficulty stems from no responsibility.

Dignity and purpose are native to the child; badness and uncontrol are not.

L. Ron Hubbard...loopy? Maybe. Crazy? Possibly. Insane madman? Perhaps. Suffered from a Messiah Complex? If you say so. Human? Most assuredly. Ambitious? Without a doubt. Creative? Love him or hate him, his output is pretty damned prolific. Insightful? Some of the above statements, probably many, if not all, would seem to be. Wise? Wisdom is in the eye of the beholder.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Here are some quotes by L. Ron Hubbard

Life is not much worth living if it cannot be enjoyed.

Never let it be said of you that you lived an amateur life.

An individual is evidently designed to be cause.

Life is a series of attained goals.

What is a great feat? It's something that can't be duplicated.

Never need praise, approval or sympathy.

People who get things done are at cause.

Full responsibility is not fault; it is recognition of being cause.

All real difficulty stems from no responsibility.

Dignity and purpose are native to the child; badness and uncontrol are not.

L. Ron Hubbard...loopy? Maybe. Crazy? Possibly. Insane madman? Perhaps. Suffered from a Messiah Complex? If you say so. Human? Most assuredly. Ambitious? Without a doubt. Creative? Love him or hate him, his output is pretty damned prolific. Insightful? Some of the above statements, probably many, if not all, would seem to be. Wise? Wisdom is in the eye of the beholder.

And don't forget criminal !
You see L. Ron was also a criminal just like his wife.

Operation Snow White was the Church of Scientology's name for a conspiracy during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members, in more than 30 countries;[1] the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history[2] with up to 5,000 covert agents.[3] This was also the operation that exposed 'Operation Freakout', because this was the case that initiated the US government investigation of the Church.[3]

Under this program, Scientology operatives committed infiltration, wiretapping, and theft of documents in government offices, most notably those of the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Eleven highly-placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organization), pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property. The case was United States vs. Mary Sue Hubbard et al., 493 F. Supp. 209 (D.D.C. 1979).[4][5][6][7]

As early as 1960, L. Ron Hubbard had proposed that Scientologists should infiltrate government departments by taking secretarial, bodyguard or other jobs.[8] In the early 1970s, the Church of Scientology was increasingly scrutinized by US federal agencies, having already been raided by the Food and Drug Administration in 1963. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) claimed it owed millions of dollars in taxes and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) sent agents into the organization.[8] The Church's response involved a publicity campaign, extensive litigation against the IRS and a program of infiltration of agency offices.[8]

The specific branch of Scientology responsible for Operation Snow White was the Guardian's Office. Created in 1966 by L. Ron Hubbard himself, the Guardian's Office's purpose was to protect the interests of Scientology.[9]

en.wikipedia.org...

Oh and here are a few quotes to consider as well:

“Look down at me and you see a fool;
look up at me and you see a god;
look straight at me and you see yourself”

“You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy.”

“I can't judge any of you. I have no malice against you and no ribbons for you. But I think that it is high time that you all start looking at yourselves, and judging the lie that you live in.”

“I can't dislike you, but I will say this to you: you haven't got long before you are all going to kill yourselves, because you are all crazy. And you can project it back at me ... but I am only what lives inside each and every one of you.”

And who do these quotes belong to?
CHARLES MANSON....
My point? fancy quotes do not a good man make.

what bugs me out is i have been seeing scientology advertisements on this very website. deny ignorance!!!

reply to post by jfj123

Oh and here are a few quotes to consider as well:

...

And who do these quotes belong to? CHARLES MANSON.... My point? fancy quotes do not a good man make.

Are you suggesting that this quote by Charles Manson:

Look down at me and you see a fool; look up at me and you see a god; look straight at me and you see yourself

Are words of wisdom? Do you find these words to be insightful? They are words of ambiguity, spoken by a man pretending to wear a gray hat, when we all know he wears a black hat. The difference between Manson and Hubbard is like the difference between night and day.

You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy.

More words of wisdom? More insight from Manson? It is becoming more ironic, with each Manson quote, given that I quoted Hubbard's remark on the ability to differentiate and what he said about that.

I can't judge any of you. I have no malice against you and no ribbons for you. But I think that it is high time that you all start looking at yourselves, and judging the lie that you live in.

Are you incapable of seeing the contradiction in this remark?

I can't dislike you, but I will say this to you: you haven't got long before you are all going to kill yourselves, because you are all crazy. And you can project it back at me ... but I am only what lives inside each and every one of you.

I posted Hubbard's own words to offer a balance to the silly Xenu nonsense people like to engage in, and because, just as you have been guilty of, people who wish to attack this group have no intentions of actually evaluating any data directly observed from that group, and instead just simply join in the rumor game.

What is disturbing is that where I offered up words of what I thought were insightful, wise, and worth considering, written by Hubbard, you have offered up words by Manson that are clearly designed to denigrate, and destroy. If you find Manson's words, words worth living by, then my friend, there is not much else to say.

Post Sript;

Full disclosure, I am born and raised Catholic and have in no way abandoned the Catholic Church. I am, however, an educated man who embraces all forms of knowledge, and willingly reads the works of others, including Charles Manson's quotes. (You didn't need to point out they were Manson quotes, I recognized the first two immediately) I am not a Scientologist defending them, I am an educated man offering up a bit of balance to the silly rumor mongering this thread clearly wants to be.

You claim "fancy quotes do not a good man make", and I say verily, verily, these words are true, and it matters not whether Jesus was a good Jew or a bad Jew, it is the message that matters. If one can not differentiate the message from the messenger...well...what does this say about the method of reasoning that prohibits such differentiation?

The Church Of Scientology is complete and utter garbage. Check out xenutv.com (Mark Bunker) on youtube

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

I posted Hubbard's own words to offer a balance to the silly Xenu nonsense people like to engage in,

It's not silly. Hubbard created the whole xenu thing for his "religion". It's a fact !

And what is the difference between manson and hubbard really?
Let's compare shall we?
Manson crazy
Hubbard crazy

Manson cultist
Hubbard cultist

Manson conspirator
Hubbard conspirator

Manson criminal
Hubbard criminal

hmmm.. The difference doesn't look too light and day to me ????

and because, just as you have been guilty of, people who wish to attack this group have no intentions of actually evaluating any data directly observed from that group, and instead just simply join in the rumor game.

This is not rumor.
You want factual data, here we go !

Operation snow white

Operation Snow White was the Church of Scientology's name for a conspiracy during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members, in more than 30 countries;[1] the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history[2] with up to 5,000 covert agents.

Under this program, Scientology operatives committed infiltration, wiretapping, and theft of documents in government offices, most notably those of the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Eleven highly-placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organization), pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property.

en.wikipedia.org...
What is your opinion about this?
Does this sound ok to you? Isn't this spying? Aren't people SHOT as spies?

Operation Freakout

Operation Freakout, also known as Operation PC Freakout, was a Church of Scientology covert plan intended to have the US author and journalist Paulette Cooper imprisoned or committed to a mental institution. The plan, undertaken in 1976 following years of Church-initiated lawsuits and covert harassment, was meant to eliminate the perceived threat that Cooper posed to the Church and obtain revenge for her publication in 1971 of a highly critical book, The Scandal of Scientology. The Federal Bureau of Investigation discovered documentary evidence of the plot and the preceding campaign of harassment during an investigation into the Church of Scientology in 1977, eventually leading to the Church compensating Cooper in an out-of-court settlement.

as example of how the church ATTACKED Cooper

In December 1972, a woman ostensibly soliciting funds for United Farm Workers stole a quantity of stationery from Cooper’s apartment. A few days later, the New York Church of Scientology “received” two anonymous bomb threats. The following May, Cooper was indicted for making the bomb threats and arraigned for a Federal grand jury. The threats had been written on her stationery, which was marked with her fingerprints.

The charges were eventually dropped in 1975 with the filing of a Nolle prosequi order by the local US Attorney’s office, but it was not until the fall of 1977 that the FBI discovered that the bomb threats had been staged by the Guardian’s Office.[5] A contemporary memorandum sent between two Guardian’s Office staff noted on a list of jobs successfully accomplished: “Conspired to entrap Mrs. Lovely into being arrested for a felony which she did not commit. She was arraigned for the crime.”

en.wikipedia.org...
More factual data against the church. Not rumor but FACT.
Do you think this was ok to do too?

The organization's actions reflect a formal policy for dealing with criticism instituted by L. Ron Hubbard, called "attack the attacker." This policy was codified by Hubbard in the latter half of the 1960s, in response to government investigations into the organization. In 1966, Hubbard wrote a criticism of the organization's behavior and noted the "correct procedure" for attacking enemies of Scientology:

(1) Spot who is attacking us.
(2) Start investigating them promptly for felonies or worse using own professionals, not outside agencies.
(3) Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them.
(4) Start feeding lurid, blood, sex, crime actual evidence on the attackers to the press.

Don't ever tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way. You can get "reasonable about it" and lose. Sure we break no laws. Sure we have nothing to hide. BUT attackers are simply an anti-Scientology propaganda agency so far as we are concerned. They have proven they want no facts and will only lie no matter what they discover. So BANISH all ideas that any fair hearing is intended and start our attack with their first breath. Never wait. Never talk about us - only them. Use their blood, sex, crime to get headlines. Don't use us. I speak from 15 years of experience in this. There has never yet been an attacker who was not reeking with crime. All we had to do was look for it and murder would come out.

This is part of the whole "What are YOUR crimes" mantra that the brainwashed church members are taught.
As example,


You'll notice in this video that:
Intimidation is used.
Threats are used.
Harassment is used.

Is this just rumor? Oh wait you can watch it yourself in the video so this is fact as well

Now this is where it gets SCAREY.
Fair Game Policy

Hubbard detailed his rules for attacking critics in a number of policy letters, including one often quoted by critics as "the Fair Game policy." This allowed that those who had been declared enemies of the Church, called "suppressive persons" or simply "SP," "May be deprived of property or injured by any means... May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." (taken from HCOPL Oct. 18, 1967 Issue IV, Penalties for Lower Conditions )

en.wikipedia.org...

Let's re-read a few parts, shall we?

May be deprived of property or injured by any means...

So L Ron is saying that it's ok to commit CRIMES against SP's and
Injured by ANY means...ANY MEANS??? Assault is a crime too !
This is coming from L Ron's mouth !

May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.

destroyed...how ominous. Obviously this is meant that you can do ANYTHING to an SP including MURDER !

In separate cases in 1979 and 1984, attorneys for Scientology argued that the Fair Game policy was in fact a core belief of Scientology and as such deserved protection as religious expression.

en.wikipedia.org...

Here are a few other issues with the church

On January 4, 1963, more than one hundred E-meters were seized by US marshals at the "Founding Church of Scientology" building, now known as the L. Ron Hubbard House, located in Washington, D.C. The church was accused of making false claims that the devices effectively treated some 70 percent of all physical and mental illness. The FDA also charged that the devices did not bear adequate directions for treating the conditions for which they were recommended.

In 1978, L. Ron Hubbard was convicted in absentia by French authorities of engaging in fraud, fined 35,000 French Francs and sentenced to four years in prison.[23] The head of the French Church of Scientology was convicted at the same trial and given a suspended one-year prison sentence.[24]

The FBI raid on the Church's headquarters revealed documentation that detailed Scientology actions against various critics of the organization. Among these documents was a plan to frame Gabe Cazares, the mayor of the city of Clearwater, Florida, with a staged hit-and-run accident; plans to discredit the skeptical organization CSICOP by spreading rumors that it was a front for the CIA; and a project called "Operation Freakout", aimed at ruining the life of author Paulette Cooper, author of an early book critical of the movement, The Scandal of Scientology.[25]

In 1988 the government of Spain arrested Scientology president Heber Jentzsch and ten other members of the organization on various charges, including "illicit association," coercion, fraud, and labor law violations.

The Church of Scientology is the only religious organization in Canada to be convicted on the charge of breaching the public trust

In France, several officials of the Church of Scientology were convicted of embezzlement in 2001

In May 2009 a trial commenced in France against Scientology, accusing it of organised fraud. The case focussed on a complaint by a woman who says that after being offered a free personality test, she was pressured into paying large sums of money.

In Belgium, after a judicial investigation since 1997, a trial against the organization is due to begin in 2008. Charges include formation of a criminal organization, the unlawful exercise of medicine, and fraud.

In the United Kingdom the church has been accused of "grooming" City of London Police officers with gifts worth thousands of pounds.

In 2009, a Paris court found the French Church of Scientology guilty of organized fraud and imposed a fine of nearly $900,000.

WOW ! Those are a lot of facts huh?????
Sounds like a great group of fun loving people huh?
You know who else thought so?
Lisa McPherson

The most widely publicized death of one of the organization's members involved the 1995 death of 36-year-old Lisa McPherson, while in the care of scientologists at the Scientology-owned Fort Harrison Hotel, in Clearwater, Florida. Despite McPherson's having experienced symptoms usually associated with mental illness (such as removing all of her clothes at the scene of a minor traffic accident), the Church intervened to prevent McPherson from receiving psychiatric treatment, and to return her to the custody of the Church of Scientology. Records show that she was then placed in isolation as part of a Scientology program known as the Introspection Rundown.[41] Weeks later, she was pronounced dead on arrival at a hospital. The autopsy identified multiple hematomas (bruises), an abrasion on the nose and lesions consistent with "insect/animal bites" in the right lower arm just above the wrist.[42] A later autopsy showed that she had died of a pulmonary embolism.

en.wikipedia.org...

and here's a copy of a letter written by L Ron himself stating that he wants to turn scientology into a religion FOR MONETARY REASONS.

(1953)

DEAR HELEN

10 APRIL
RE CLINIC, HAS

The arrangements that have been made seem a good temporary measure. On a longer look, however, something more equitable will have to be organized. I am not quite sure what we would call the place - probably not a clinic - but I am sure that it ought to be a company, independent of the HAS [the Hubbard Association of Scientologists] but fed by the HAS. We don't want a clinic. We want one in operation but not in name. Perhaps we could call it a Spiritual Guidance Center. Think up its name, will you. And we could put in nice desks and our boys in neat blue with diplomas on the walls and 1. knock psychotherapy into history and 2. make enough money to shine up my operating scope and 3. keep the HAS solvent. It is a problem of practical business. I await your reaction on the religion angle. In my opinion, we couldn't get worse public opinion than we have had or have less customers with what we've got to sell. A religious charter would be necessary in Pennsylvania or NJ to make it stick. But I sure could make it stick. We're treating the present time beingness, psychotherapy treats the past and the brain. And brother, that's religion, not mental science.

Best Regards,

Ron

OK I could go on all day from many different sources but thank god for wiki

What is disturbing is that where I offered up words of what I thought were insightful, wise, and worth considering, written by Hubbard,

NO, what is disturbing is that after everything L. Ron has done and everyone else who has committed crimes in his name, YOU would consider anything he has to say as insightful, wise or worth considering. And if you are, you might as well consider statements from hitler, manson and others as well.

I am not a Scientologist defending them, I am an educated man offering up a bit of balance to the silly rumor mongering this thread clearly wants to be.

If you were an educated man, you would know that the whole xenu thing is not a rumor. I even posted an audio clip of L. Ron describing the whole xenu thing. That can't be rumor if it comes from L.Ron's own mouth right????

You claim "fancy quotes do not a good man make", and I say verily, verily, these words are true, and it matters not whether Jesus was a good Jew or a bad Jew, it is the message that matters. If one can not differentiate the message from the messenger...well...what does this say about the method of reasoning that prohibits such differentiation?

edit on 23-10-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux because: (no reason given)

So we should consider hitlers words ? The message is that he wanted a pure people. That's not so bad huh???

Before suggesting that was has been posted is "rumor", please educate yourself about what scientology is really about.

The Xenu aspect is supposedly only revealed to people in the higher ranks. In the recent Dispatches (or Panarama?) documentary many famous people are asked about it and deny that it is taught as part of the religion.

I don't know how true this is.

Originally posted by derfred33
Hi people!

It seams that this subject is a kind of a tabu, an alien named Xenu or Xemu who once was the dictator of some galactic confederation came to earth 75 million years ago in a DC8 like spacecraft and left his people around volcanos and killed them with hydrogen bombs.

This is what is written here about this scientology character...

Well, this is of course a simplification of the story written by the bad science fiction author and high priest and leader of the scientology "church"

Personally I find amazing that supposedly well informed people buy this bad sci-fi story and even pay fortunes to have access to this story and accept it as an hidden truth. You can read about it in the link above.

Is there any cult like this but based on Dune or Star wars? ...Lord of the rings...

If one believes in the soul and if you understand the mentality of a madman (or an enemy) then it is not a far reach to believe that some powerful beings wish to destroy/enslave the soul of man. Xemu is another name for ENKI and the story is a play on enki and his soul harvester. Enki and the soul harvest infact exist. Some are taken for war, others for prison (of sorts)

Originally posted by blamethegreys
There must be a part of them that suspends disbelief because when they finally get to hear the complete Xenu story they feel like such a shill. They paid sooo much money to get to that Nth level of knowledge!

As for other Sci-Fi cults religions: Here ya go!
www.jedichurch.org...

The Jedi thing is one of the funniest stores of recent years. It actually all started as a student prank. See over here in Blighty we this census every ten years and the government set a number whereby, if a certain number of folk profess , on the census form, to be of that belief system, it becomes recognized under law. The prank worked and enough said they were Jedi Knights to have the religion officially recognised. The rest is just fall out from that ...

neither do I, this is all new to me, and thats the reason of my post... I find absolutely incredible how educated people give so much money to be lectured or thought on this kind of crap!!

Simple, they focus on the Dianetics type classes, self-improvement, and of course (especially here, near their home base), business opportunities with other Scientologists. I don't think you'll see any stories about Xenu in their handed out literature, etc.

It can be considered a cult, by it's practices...for example, suggesting cutting ties with family and friends that aren't of the "faith", or their "cleansing" rituals, which are really nothing more than the same kind of brainwashing methods used by other cults (sleep deprivation, malnutrition, dehydration, etc.).

They advertise as a self-help methodology. You won't see anything about Xenu in their tv commercials, etc. But, it's a part of it, and I imagine as some members find out, they probably leave the "church" if they haven't drunk too much of the Kool-Aid....

*gestures with his hand* Now....May the Force, be with You!

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


You forgot one…

“ You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.” — L. Ron Hubbard's response to a question from the audience during a meeting of the Eastern Science Fiction Association on (7 November 1948), as quoted in a 1994 affidavit by Sam Moskowitz.


Source (among others)

Originally posted by JoshNorton
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

You forgot one…

“Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion.” — L. Ron Hubbard circa 1940, reprinted in Reader’s Digest, May 1980, p1.

Look, let's be clear here, I am did not enter this thread to defend any religion, let alone Scientology, but merely offer a balance to the ridiculous cherry picking that is being used to attack this religion. Your quote is a perfect example of this. Does this quote attributed to Hubbard make Scientology less a religion? Are you not aware of the vasts amount of wealth the Catholic Church holds? The Church of Latter Day Saints? Islam sure seems to have some beautiful temples that ooze opulence. The Jewish religion as well. Yet, in this thread, it is all about attacking one particular religion, declaring it not a religion, and cherry picking quotes and even stooping to quote sites not at all related to that religion in order to undermine it.

The attack on religious organizations in general is fairly disturbing, the profound lack of tolerance shown in this thread is even more disturbing.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Look, let's be clear here, I am did not enter this thread to defend any religion, let alone Scientology, but merely offer a balance to the ridiculous cherry picking that is being used to attack this religion.

Are you kidding me? Cherry picking? Was I cherry picking when I posted all that FACTUAL info about all the damage scientology did/does? It's not a religion, it's a dangerous cult. And OBVIOUSLY, you are indeed trying to defend this cult.

Are you not aware of the vasts amount of wealth the Catholic Church holds? The Church of Latter Day Saints?

This thread is specifically about scientology, not any other organization. If you want to discuss those, start a thread and invite us.

Yet, in this thread, it is all about attacking one particular religion,

Because that is the topic of discussion. Did you read my massive post about all the harm scientology has done/ is doing? Don't you think it deserves to be attacked for those reasons?

declaring it not a religion, and cherry picking quotes and even stooping to quote sites not at all related to that religion in order to undermine it.

Why are you defending scientology so much? You do know that those who criticize scientology are typically harassed and their entire lives are "undermined" ? Why is it ok for them to do but not for us to do ? Double standard ????

The attack on religious organizations in general is fairly disturbing, the profound lack of tolerance shown in this thread is even more disturbing.

One can argue the manson group was a "religious organization". That means you're not happy those individuals are in jail. What have you done to get them out of jail and/or defend them ?

Originally posted by jfj123
One can argue the manson group was a "religious organization". That means you're not happy those individuals are in jail. What have you done to get them out of jail and/or defend them ?

Well, Charlie didn't kill anyone himself... he's just so charismatic that he could talk others into doing it for him. But that said, I'm not going to try to get him out of jail. He's quite happy there, and puts on his crazy act any time he comes up for parole. He was raised by the system, and doesn't operate well outside it.

There's just not much to discuss about scientology. The whole cult is nothing but a money scam, similar to Goldline or some TV-evangelists telling you to buy DVDs

reply to post by Killface


Star for your post

I agree with you 100%, as I believe in the Ancient Alien theory than other theory. Scientology, it seems, is just a way to make a 'religion' out of the Ancient Alien theory, which is hurtful to the Ancient Alien theory believers. It takes credibility out of it.

The Ancient Alien theory has no basis for religion, a supreme Diety, or tithing for any information. It just explains the 'magical' beings and events of the bible more scientifically. To me, if a person says the Ancient Alien theory sounds crazy, then they must say that the Church's version sounds more crazier.

reply to post by jfj123

Are you kidding me? Cherry picking? Was I cherry picking when I posted all that FACTUAL info about all the damage scientology did/does? It's not a religion, it's a dangerous cult. And OBVIOUSLY, you are indeed trying to defend this cult.

You are absolutely cherry picking. It is not as if you have any interest at all in balancing out your vitriol towards this religion with any data that would suggest they do some good. You do not have any interest at all in weighing all the facts, and only care to post those facts that further your cause.

As to defending them, I am no more interested in defending Scientology for any damaged they may have caused than I am in defending the Catholic Church, Church of Latter Day Saints, Christian Scientists, Judaism, and Islam for the damage they've caused. The title of this threat is "What about Scientology?", which is a fairly innocuous question. While the O.P. certainly hoped to make this about the persistent rumor that Scientology is all about a belief in some alien, of all the Scientologist's I have known, several who have given me books on and about Scientology, (for free...that means no charge), not a word was ever spoken about this alien.

This thread is specifically about scientology, not any other organization. If you want to discuss those, start a thread and invite us.

Your hatred for one specific religion blinds you. I responded to a poster who replied directly to me, disingenuously claiming I "forgot" to post a quote by Hubbard claiming that there is money in religion. It was clear by this disingenuous post that this member hoped to vilify the church based upon this quote. It is germane to that topic to point out the wealth that other religions have amassed. You don't get to play judge and prosecutor in this thread. If you want to prosecute this church, that is your choice. If you hope to win an argument by suppressing other arguments that don't further your cause, this only reveals your inability to argue logically.

Because that is the topic of discussion. Did you read my massive post about all the harm scientology has done/ is doing? Don't you think it deserves to be attacked for those reasons?

You didn't start this thread, some other member did, and that member didn't lay into "all the harm Scientology" has done, and seemed more interested in attacking the church for "buying into" a "bad sci-fi" story. What I think is that the church, like all churches, deserve a fair and balanced analysis, not some logical fallacy where the only data supplied is intended to paint the subject as being monstrous.

Why are you defending scientology so much? You do know that those who criticize scientology are typically harassed and their entire lives are "undermined" ? Why is it ok for them to do but not for us to do ? Double standard ????

I have not posted enough in this thread to fairly be painted as someone who is "defending Scientology so much". I offered up some quotes by Hubbard that are clearly quotes that fit with in the parameter of religion, to counter all the claims that Scientology is not a religion. Because I did this you immediately replied to my effort by harassing me. I am not a Scientologist, I did not harass anyone by doing this, but you insist on harassing me. You don't want to just harass Scientologist's, you just want to harass. You certainly don't want to have a discussion where all the facts are discussed, just those facts you believe will further your own agenda.

One can argue the manson group was a "religious organization". That means you're not happy those individuals are in jail. What have you done to get them out of jail and/or defend them ?

What should first be noted is that earlier you insisted that this was not a discussion about other religions and that if I wanted to discuss other religions I should start my own thread, and now here you are discussing another religion. Your Manson analogy, is of course, for all intents and purposes, Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
You are absolutely cherry picking.

Not at all. I could post page after page of bad things scientology has been involved in. These are NOT isolated instances of minor issues.

It is not as if you have any interest at all in balancing out your vitriol towards this religion with any data that would suggest they do some good.

I can't make things up and pretend it does good on the whole as I'd be outright lying ! But hey you go ahead and post info proving that they do good.

You do not have any interest at all in weighing all the facts, and only care to post those facts that further your cause.

I've read quite a bit about scientology and have weighed all the facts. But again, why don't you go ahead and post some facts that contradict all the info I've posted.

While the O.P. certainly hoped to make this about the persistent rumor that Scientology is all about a belief in some alien,

It's not a rumor. It's factual. I'm not sure why you refuse to accept FACTS ???? I find this confusing.

of all the Scientologist's I have known, several who have given me books on and about Scientology, (for free...that means no charge),

aha ! Now we're getting closer to the truth

not a word was ever spoken about this alien.

Luckily L. Ron himself, in his own spoken word, has talked about xenu. And of course they're not going to tell you about the crazy alien story in the beginning. They want everything you see at first, to sound reasonable and normal, until you're brainwashed in the later stages. And OF COURSE, in the beginning, you will get free material. They use this to draw you in and that's when they start charging you for all those "courses", "auditing", etc...

Your hatred for one specific religion blinds you.

I also hate the nazi's. It doesn't blind me to their agenda ! I don't like scientology because it hurts people. If it didn't hurt people, I wouldn't give it a second thought. Let me make this clear, I don't like ANY extremist group/cult (ie the KKK, 4th reich, white supremacists, al qaeda, scientology, etc...)

If you hope to win an argument by suppressing other arguments that don't further your cause, this only reveals your inability to argue logically.

huh??? How am I suppressing you in any way ? Isn't that the whole basis of discussing subject matter on ATS? To discuss all viewpoints???? You get to say whatever you want here and I can in no way prevent that thus, there is no way for me to suppress you or anyone else here.
On a side note, I find it interesting you used the word "suppress" OOPS You've been outed ! You might as well just call me an SP and admit you're a church member

What I think is that the church, like all churches, deserve a fair and balanced analysis, not some logical fallacy where the only data supplied is intended to paint the subject as being monstrous.

Well here's your chance. Go ahead and post some opposing data.

Because I did this you immediately replied to my effort by harassing me.

Ah so if someone disagrees with your viewpoint, you consider it harassment ???

I am not a Scientologist,

I'm finding that harder and harder to believe.

I did not harass anyone by doing this, but you insist on harassing me.

How am I harassing you? You posted on a public forum which leaves your ideas open for discussion, interpretation and response. If you didn't want a response, don't post. DUH !

You don't want to just harass Scientologist's, you just want to harass.

I'm not interested in "harassing" anyone. If you think I am, REPORT ME. If they ban me, I guess you were right. If they don't, then maybe you're simply making that up Let me know how it goes

You certainly don't want to have a discussion where all the facts are discussed, just those facts you believe will further your own agenda.

Well then, why not post those facts you think I am ignoring and we can discuss them.

What should first be noted is that earlier you insisted that this was not a discussion about other religions and that if I wanted to discuss other religions I should start my own thread, and now here you are discussing another religion. Your Manson analogy, is of course, for all intents and purposes, Reductio ad Hitlerum.

This is what's known as a comparative analogy ONLY, and brought up as an example of how your logic can easily be applied elsewhere.

reply to post by jfj123

Not at all. I could post page after page of bad things scientology has been involved in. These are NOT isolated instances of minor issues.

It matters not how many pages you can post of the negative effects, if this is all you intend to do and you, as you have shown, refuse to acknowledge the positive effects, then you most certainly are cherry picking data in order to push forth an agenda.

I can't make things up and pretend it does good on the whole as I'd be outright lying ! But hey you go ahead and post info proving that they do good.

You are outright lying with this statement. The fact is you refuse to acknowledge, or do any research that might contradict your bias. As I have all ready stated, I did not enter this thread to defend any religion and simply provided some quotes of Hubbard that indicate religious teachings, since no one else seemed to have any intentions of doing so while cherry picking data to push forth a vitriolic agenda. You're invitation to me to go ahead and post the good they do is quite disingenuous since you seem intent on framing me as one who is defending Scientology.

As long as you insist on only presenting negative data regarding this church, and steadfastly refuse to offer any positive data, then your bias will remain evident, and your agenda clear.

I've read quite a bit about scientology and have weighed all the facts. But again, why don't you go ahead and post some facts that contradict all the info I've posted.

You are more than likely lying. Regardless of what precisely you are lying about, whether it be that you read quite a bit about Scientology, implying you've read their literature as well as opposing literature, or if you are lying about weighing all the facts, you have no intention of doing anything other than use propaganda in order to defame a religion.

It's not a rumor. It's factual. I'm not sure why you refuse to accept FACTS ???? I find this confusing.

The only people I ever hear talk about this supposed belief in an alien is from non Scientologist's. I have asked Scientologists about this, and all the Scientologist's I have asked don't know what I am talking about. I have asked people who are not Scientologist's how they came about this information, and the answers vary, such as your offerings which is to provide non Scientology literature claiming it is a "fact" or some video of Hubbard talking about an alien as if this video is used as religious indoctrination. I have had countless discussions with Scientologist's and never have they tried to convince me that their religion is based upon a belief in some alien. What they do discuss is ethics, what they call an emotional tone scale, and they talk about their "E-meter", as well as other "technologies" they employ as a Scientologist, but none of it has anything to do with some alien.

aha ! Now we're getting closer to the truth

Precisely, unlike you, I have bothered to read Scientology literature, and once again you are being disingenuous by declaring "aha!" You don't honestly think I was able to quote so many of Hubbard's religious aphorisms because they are well known and easily accessed by memory, do you? I have books given to me that I used to post those.

Luckily L. Ron himself, in his own spoken word, has talked about xenu. And of course they're not going to tell you about the crazy alien story in the beginning. They want everything you see at first, to sound reasonable and normal, until you're brainwashed in the later stages. And OF COURSE, in the beginning, you will get free material. They use this to draw you in and that's when they start charging you for all those "courses", "auditing", etc...

Scientologist's have for years now attempted to draw me in and register for courses and pay for auditing sessions, but honestly I don't think you have a clue as to what auditing is, as I have a few good friends who are Scientologists who offer to audit for free. The auditing process is nothing more than acting as a conduit to a person struggling through some sort of stress or other problem that is keeping them from moving forward. These friends I have are not interested in getting rich off of anyone with their auditing, they just want to help people.

I also hate the nazi's. It doesn't blind me to their agenda ! I don't like scientology because it hurts people. If it didn't hurt people, I wouldn't give it a second thought. Let me make this clear, I don't like ANY extremist group/cult (ie the KKK, 4th reich, white supremacists, al qaeda, scientology, etc...)

You don't have any problems at all with your own extremism.

huh??? How am I suppressing you in any way ?

I respond to another poster's quote of Hubbard claiming the money is in religion by pointing out the reality that many religions hold vast amounts of wealth, and you jump in and demand I can only talk about Scientologists, and if I want to talk about Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, or Jews, I should start a different thread. This demand is a form of suppression.

Isn't that the whole basis of discussing subject matter on ATS?

Where are you having any discussion? You flat out made it clear you have no intentions of discussing the fact that very many religions have amassed great amounts of wealth. You want to proselytize about the evils of Scientology, but refuse to acknowledge that pretty much all religions can be demonstrated to have caused some harm. You aren't interested in a discussion, merely using this thread as an opportunity to post your propaganda.

To discuss all viewpoints????

You're not discussing all viewpoints, and when I attempted to expand the discussion into a wider viewpoint by pointing out that more than Scientology is interested in wealth, you attempted to shut me down.

You get to say whatever you want here and I can in no way prevent that thus, there is no way for me to suppress you or anyone else here.

You cannot suppress me because I won't allow it, that doesn't mean you haven't tried to do so.

On a side note, I find it interesting you used the word "suppress" OOPS You've been outed !

"Outed" have I? Are you now implying that the word suppress belongs to Scientologists? Your ignorance of the lexicon and the etymology of words is woeful. Your ignorance is general is stupendous.

You might as well just call me an SP and admit you're a church member

Uh-huh. Now there's some irony for you. Sort of like gay people "outing" people. Care to explain what an SP is?

Well here's your chance. Go ahead and post some opposing data.

I offered that fair and balanced data by supplying several quotes of Hubbard's that I believed had some wisdom to offer. You can take them or leave them, as I have stated, now to the point of ad nauseum, is that I have no need to work as a publicist for Scientology, nor any other religion, and the Scientologists certainly do not need me as their publicist. They seem to be doing fine on their own.

Ah so if someone disagrees with your viewpoint, you consider it harassment ???

My original post did not offer much of my viewpoint at all! The vast majority of it was used to quote Hubbard on some of his religious beliefs, and my own comments were fairly ambiguous regarding the subject matter. Even so, you jumped right in and decided you had an opponent on your hands because I offered those quotes. You have not offered up any discussion with me, but instead have taken an adversarial position with me, and have attempted to falsely frame me as one who is defending Scientology. All I did was offer up a different viewpoint from what had been offered up until that point.

I'm finding that harder and harder to believe.

Liars usually have a hard time believing anyone.

How am I harassing you? You posted on a public forum which leaves your ideas open for discussion, interpretation and response. If you didn't want a response, don't post. DUH !

Posting on a public forum does mean that I will have to learn to deal with people who rely solely on logical fallacies, such as your ad hominem attacks, and let me be clear here, your response to the quotes I initially posted were ad hominem attacks. You refused to speak to the wisdom, or lack thereof, of the quotes themselves and instead tried to dismiss them by attacking the person who was quoted. This is an ad hominem.

Further, as I keep saying, you are far less interested in discussion, than you are in posting propaganda.

I'm not interested in "harassing" anyone. If you think I am, REPORT ME. If they ban me, I guess you were right. If they don't, then maybe you're simply making that up Let me know how it goes

Your pomposity is telling enough. You are clearly interested in harassing. When I posted those quotes, I did not do so as a reply to you, and as I have stated, I did not take any position on those quotes other than they offered a different viewpoint of Scientology. You were compelled to take those quotes I posted and to rely on logical fallacies in an attempt to dismiss them. The irony of that, of course, is that most people didn't respond to them at all, which can very easily be construed as dismissal, you pretense at dismissal not so easily so.

Well then, why not post those facts you think I am ignoring and we can discuss them.

Sigh. Fine. I will be willing to post evidence of good the church has done, if you are willing to agree that by me doing so it is not in anyway a defense of Scientology, but merely an investigative technique used to actually facilitate discussion. I am not interested in being an advocate of Scientology.