Would a Nazi mission to Mars have really been possible in 1945?

That is very interesting, if thats the case then i guess the Nazi mission to Mars was a lie. (well with the use of tachyon drives anyway)!

Its interesting to hear about what people think on this subject. I still like to think that the Nazi's did begin to develop disc technology towards the end of the war, particularly with all the documentation about the Haunebu projects.

I read somewhere that this is believed to be the reason for an increased number of UFO sightings in the late 40's early 50's, what people believed to be alien saucers were in fact the recovered Nazi tech being tested.

Will see if i can find the info again.

The question i have is:

If the nazi's did indeed develop disc like craft does anyone think it would have been possible for them to send them into space (i understand that Mars or the moon is doubtful but even if it was just into the upper atmosphere or in orbit around earth)?

wait a minute, I knew we got VW from those nationalistic, Aryan pukes...but we got mars-capable spacecraft too? Seems like a pretty giant leap. While I'm all for singing the praises of German engineering and machining, this is just way too far fetched with far too little evidence to support it.

We ran with the German's work on rocketry, flight and mechanics; but they were initial designs that required decades of perfection to get to where we are now. Were the Germans interested in space flight, I would bet every penny I have, yes. Did they actually reach orbital, or even sub-orbital space, I would bet my left nut, no.

The V series rockets, the prototype jet-powered aircraft; all revolutionary for their time, with Germany pioneering the research, but they got the crap kicked out of them. We snatched up their most brilliant minds and put them to work continuing advanced research.

if the nazis has flew to the mars, hitler will probably make this as a propaganda...

i always had a very hard time with the idea of Nazi mars missions ...

I think they had some working saucer type proto's but I mars... I just don't think so.

The whole viktalen thing stacks up nicely with some things I know already... Some of their other ideas and the descriptions i think might even be pretty close to right on in schematic but wrong as to what they say the parts are... Call it a common thread with schapeller and Keely and even to an extent otis carr and some others...

There are techniques and technologies that we are locked out of due to the mathematical models being used in some Very basic parts of our ENGINEERING lexicon... I know this because physics uses a separate lexicon for a reason.

PS: well if you do have advanced knowledge of physics etcetera then wouldn't your response to tachyon's being brought into a conversation be more along the lines of ... I always knew it was theoretically postulated to exist but I thought the only claims of implementation were in sci fi movies LIKE the Watchmen...

People that reference everything to TV and movies is a personal pet peeve of mine, I apologize if I was wrong. But far too many times I've had people try to argue me into believing something THEY saw on TV!!!

reply to post by roguetechie


Yes i know they are a theorized particle, but that being said in theory i should be able to win the lottery every week
for some reason it just doesn't work work like that
They may well be real but until any evidence that proves this and we rewrite some of our knowledge of physics they will all ways be as real as a movie is
Sorry about before i should have contributed something more substantial than a lame joke this is why i think what i do

A tachyon (pronounced /ˈtæki.ɒn/; Greek: ταχύς, takhus, "swift" + English: -on "elementary particle") is a hypothetical subatomic particle that moves faster than light. In the language of special relativity, a tachyon is a particle with space-like four-momentum and imaginary proper time. A tachyon is constrained to the space-like portion of the energy-momentum graph. Therefore, it cannot slow down to subluminal speeds. The first description of tachyons is attributed to German physicist Arnold Sommerfeld. However, it was George Sudarshan,[1] Olexa-Myron Bilaniuk,[2] Vijay Deshpande,[2] and Gerald Feinberg[3] (who originally coined the term in the 1960s) who advanced a theoretical framework for their study. If tachyons were conventional, localizable particles that could be used to send signals faster than light, this would lead to violations of causality in special relativity. But in the framework of quantum field theory, tachyons are understood as signifying an instability of the system and treated using tachyon condensation, rather than as real faster-than-light particles, and such instabilities are described by tachyonic fields. Tachyonic fields have appeared theoretically in a variety of contexts, such as the bosonic string theory. According to the contemporary and widely accepted understanding of the concept of a particle, tachyon particles are too unstable to be treated as existent.[4] By that theory, faster than light information transmission and causality violation with tachyons are impossible. Conventional massive particles which travel slower than the speed of light are sometimes termed "bradyons" or "tardyons" in contrast, although these terms are only used in the context of discussions about tachyons. Despite the theoretical arguments against the existence of tachyon particles, experimental searches have been conducted to test the assumption against their existence; however, no experimental evidence for the existence of tachyon particles has been found.[

First post, so go easy on me =D

Firstly, i must say these type of topics ragarding Nazi technology and the plethora of stories that go along are always fascinating reads as well as discussions.

Without a doubt the Germans (and i say Germans because not all thought & acted like the Nazi did) were truly ahead of the rest of the world when it came to military might and aeronautical engineering. There is no arguing against this. The b4stards were just geniuses.

To get more on topic, did the Nazi reach Mars? In my honest opinion. I'd like to believe so and it would make a hell of a true story, but i really doubt it.

From what i've come across over the net and what not. I don't recall ever hearing Mars & Nazi being in the same sentence let alone book. I may be wrong though and most probably am... So correct me on this if possible. On another note i don't even recall seeing/hearing much about the Nazi being interested in Space. I would have thought that was the Vril's department.

Now while i'm saying all this, i still believe the Germans (Nazi, Vril, SS) were a very mysterious bunch and there's no questioning they had a lot of projects and ideas which were and still are being supressed to this day. Most of which surpass the "sci-fi factor" of this topic by 10fold.

So yeah, that's my two cents. Awesome thread again. Keep the posts coming!

The Nazis didn't even have a platform for weapons delivery to the United States, yet some people think they were capable of reaching Mars? Really?

One of the chief logistical challenges the Nazis had was their inability to bomb the US. If they had ships capable of going to Mars, they damn sure would have bombed the hell out of us in the US first (and we'd all probably be speaking German right now)....

No, the Nazis never went to Mars.

I 100% agree about the tachyon thing it makes good tv to bring up tachyon cannons and drives but .... not so good science...

and yeah gazrok I think most people (including me a kooky nazi saucer type) have issues with the idea of one going to mars ... I'm not even a hundred percent convinced they got suborbital...

Now as far as them not having anything that could hit the US... as I've said in previous posts there were several projects (including the first Sea Launch Ballistic Missile platform to be towed by a u boat then filled with water to orient it vertically and launch a v2 and there were from what I've been able to glean ready units that for some reason did not get used... now from what I gathered it was one or two ready units but still) that were pretty close to being able to hit the continental US even fairly early in the war.... BUT the projects just somehow seemed to hit bureaucratic setbacks radical design changes and fall victim to the whims of various high command political battles COINCIDENTALLY quite FREQUENTLY.


In my mind, and from all the research I've seen, for some reason Germany never struck the US not because it couldn't but because for some reason there was a faction within their regime that didn't want it to happen and sabotaged any and all attempts to make it happen.

Interestingly after the war the US just so happened to pick up more, AND BETTER, scientists than any of the rest of the allies by a pretty wide margin. Now I'm not going to speculate to the how's or whys beyond the point of saying that there were too many programs that were within inches of giving them a strike ability on us and all of them snatched defeat from the jaws of victory usually due to politics for it to be a coincidence.

I don't know it's just interesting when you put it in context with some of the other anomalous and odd stuff that was going on behind the scenes throughout the war... (the british war department had a group of Pendulum dowsers "locating" German U boat concentrations... Then you have the whole eugenics movement and it's DEEP roots in the US as well as what you could call the substantial Ideological SYMPATHY at the very least the american ELITE of the time had with Naziism.) Oh and then just to add more strangeness you have the recently found CARGO U boat loaded almost entirely with MERCURY the Germans sent to Japan in the final days of the war in Europe. And if you follow the lore in the black aircraft field and even the vimanaka shastra mentions mercury. and then there is operation Highjump which seemed to have driven Byrd crazy and IMO got Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal pushed out of a Bethesda naval hospital window after a breakdown of his own.

There is just a lot of high strangeness that is indicative of a very LARGE part of the story we HAVE NOT been told yet (and may NEVER be told judging by how many documents are still classified to the HILT almost two thirds of a century later! Some of these documents haven't even came up for their FIRST review yet to see if they can be unclassified)

Originally posted by roguetechie
In my mind, and from all the research I've seen, for some reason Germany never struck the US not because it couldn't but because for some reason there was a faction within their regime that didn't want it to happen and sabotaged any and all attempts to make it happen.

The Nazi’s never “struck” the US because they could not. The Nazi’s had enough problems striking the UK with any significant effect after 1943. The effect of the Vengeance weapons were negligible and the Nazi’s expended too much effort with very little gain. Although large numbers of civilians in Britain and mainland Europe were killed by V1 and V2 weapons most were shot down, missed or were destroyed in their stocks by allied aircraft – or even sabotaged by the slave labourers who were being forced to assemble them.

Germany had neither the technology nor the method to strike at the USA. Striking the US was hardly a priority when they were being systematically bombed into the Stone Age, had lost strategic air superiority and had armies coming at them from the West, East and South. The German navy had been sunk by the British and the submarine force was constantly on the back foot by allied advances in anti submarine warfare.

Originally posted by roguetechie
Interestingly after the war the US just so happened to pick up more, AND BETTER, scientists than any of the rest of the allies by a pretty wide margin. Now I'm not going to speculate to the how's or whys beyond the point of saying that there were too many programs that were within inches of giving them a strike ability on us and all of them snatched defeat from the jaws of victory usually due to politics for it to be a coincidence.

The number of German scientists collected after the War by the victorious allies was small compared to the numbers of scientists in place within the allied industry and research institutes. The only German scientists who made any difference were those with unique knowledge of rocketry. I agree Germany had interesting programmes but none were capable of reaching fruition given the state of affairs they were in. I am sure that given optimum conditions and a couple of extra years, free access to the raw materials and a coherent industry, the Nazi’s would have been able to develop an intercontinental rocket with a conventional warhead, but like the V2 it would have had llittle real effect.

It is a fantasy to suggest that the Nazi’s had technology so far advanced that it remains secret or elusive today. There is too much of an industry in the over-egging of Nazi technology, doubtlessly helped by “documentaries” from Discovery and the History Channel which are full of speculative research and the need to “wow” the audience.

Originally posted by roguetechie
…the british war department had a group of Pendulum dowsers "locating" German U boat concentrations...

That may be true, but the British also developed the doctrine and the technology which (along with our Canadian and US allies) led to the defeat of the submarines in the Battle of the Atlantic. The German submarine losses were truely saddening.

Originally posted by roguetechie
Oh and then just to add more strangeness you have the recently found CARGO U boat loaded almost entirely with MERCURY the Germans sent to Japan in the final days of the war in Europe.

That would be U864 which was sunk by the British submarine HMS Venturer. The mercury was for the Japanese to use in detonators, just like previous shipments of Mercury to Japan from their allies, by the amout of nearly 70 t was really not that much - they got 1,500 t from Italy in 1943. Nothing particularly sinister or noteworthy and nothing to suggest some “oh, crickey” technology en route. In fact the only noteworthy thing about U864 was the manner of her sinking and the skill of the crew of the Royal Navy submarine who did the dirty deed.

Originally posted by roguetechie
There is just a lot of high strangeness that is indicative of a very LARGE part of the story we HAVE NOT been told yet (and may NEVER be told judging by how many documents are still classified to the HILT almost two thirds of a century later! Some of these documents haven't even came up for their FIRST review yet to see if they can be unclassified)

Just because there is a lack of evidence to support the assertion that the Nazi’s were on the brink of fielding technologies of a kind we “just would not believe” does not mean that there is such evidence. Have you an official source which states the extent of still classified WW2 documents and what their content would be?

Regards

Originally posted by Use your brain
the prototype jet-powered aircraft; all revolutionary for their time, with Germany pioneering the research

Very wrong actually, the British pioneered the research for jets, and got a jet plane into Squadron service before the Germans!

Originally posted by aRogue
Without a doubt the Germans (and i say Germans because not all thought & acted like the Nazi did) were truly ahead of the rest of the world when it came to military might and aeronautical engineering. There is no arguing against this.

Actually there is a lot or arguing against it - the British and Americans were ahead of the Germans in both piston engines and jet engines during the war. Just look at the Spitfire and Mustang - they had piston engines of
27 litres producing 43.6 kW/Litre and the Germans had a engine of 35.7 litres producing only 35.0 kW/Litre.

With Jet aircraft the British Meteor had Rolls Royce Derwents of 3.500 pounds thrust each, the Me 262 had 2 Jumo 004's of only 1,980 pounds thrust each....

there's no questioning they had a lot of projects and ideas which were and still are being supressed to this day. Most of which surpass the "sci-fi factor" of this topic by 10fold.

Any proof at all of that silly claim?

reply to post by dereks


The Horten Ho 229. Yes it didn't impact the war because of it's late debut. However it's still one of the finest examples of aeronautical engineering that made a short appearance during the war. While the Spitfire & Mustang were equally great machines that greatly influenced the war, they are minute compared to the technology and design of the Horten.

... and to your second question.

Off-course there is otherwise i wouldn't have made that claim, silly. However now is not the time and place to do so.

The Great German Patent Heist... interesting paper on the mining of nazi science by corporations post war

October 1946 issue of Harpers gets into german technology and it's mining by us in DETAIL

here is a pair of articles that goes into DETAIL about the mining of 1500 tons of german patent documentation by US military and business interests... and if this is what is ADMITTED It's pretty safe to assume that there was much much more we didn't hear about.

And then in 1951 the Invention secrecy act was passed... Gee interesting timing eh? You want to know something even more fun? FOIA requests for the list of categories of inventions that DOD wants evaluated are not even accepted... the last list of categories that FOIA'ed successfully was 1971
ATS thread about invention secrecy act lots of info for those interested

Under the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, patent applications on new inventions can be subject to secrecy orders restricting their publication if government agencies believe that disclosure would be “detrimental to the national security.”


Are you just choosing to ignore the parts of history you don't like?

I'm getting tired of proving the things you ask me to prove over and over only to have you cherry pick things you feel you can score points off of in my posts...

So it was just german rocket guys that we used after the war and german tech and engineers have nothing to do with anything?

Henri Coanda will be sad to hear that... since not only did he build and fly the first jet airplane in the 20's (didn't end well for him admittedly) but coanda effect aircraft are just now coming into their own... (interestingly enough a texas university engineering group also found a way to use air compressors and puffers along with some add on body kit modifications that could if retrofitted into a vehicle jump the fuel economy by up to 15 % using Coanda effect.)

Or what about Lippisch who was instrumental in the American Delta Dart aircraft of the 50's including the b58 hustler.

There are COUNTLESS other examples I could list for you AGAIN but instead maybe I'll stop arguing with someone who has an opinion that can only be kept by not acknowledging evidence that contradicts said opinion. You know like the evidence I've been posting over and over for my last several posts.

As far as my "official source" for this idea that nazi tech is very advanced and still secret today...

Sir Ian Fleming : Wrote the bond novels based off of his experience in tech retrieval teams for the british during world war 2... we're just barely seeing some of the technologies he obviously ran into in it's infancy during the course of the war show up on the scene EVEN NOW.

That to me is a pretty good indicator of things, beyond that I have been passed on anecdotal information saying certain things by people I've known over the years too but you wanted an OFFICIAL SOURCE.

Now if you try and refute my use of Ian fleming in this capacity because it's not OFFICIAL enough for you I will point out that you are quite literally Asking for AN OFFICIAL REPORT FROM THE GOVERNMENT TELLING US THEY ARE LYING ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE CLASSIFIED....

That is kind of a stupid thing to ask for and or an extremely dishonest debate tactic. I'll choose to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just didn't quite realize you were in essence asking for some mythical official acknowledgement that they are lying about the TRAINLOADS of still classified documents from world war 2.


Oh and here's a couple more things besides rockets the germans pioneered and we got help from their engineers with after the war

Guided missiles, bombs, cruise missile type weapons.. They had acoustic sensors, tv guidance and other methods... and I THINK they pioneered the whole wire guided missile and rocket tech. (might be wrong there not sure but their wire guided stuff is the first I have found)

IR night vision: They had tanks with IR spotlights and a tv screen inside showing the enhanced image. plus they had some STG 44 rifles with an IR site.. (batteries alone weighed 30 something pounds and were very limitted but they had it... and in Korea we used a system very similar to their Vampir IR designator on the m3 night carbine!!

for those of you that are interested here is a link to the german trooper night sight and the American counterpart used in Korea .
VAMPIR german IR rifle night sight notice it's similarity to my next link
m3 carbine ... first iteration 1943 post ww2 it took on a distinctive similar look to the vampir

I couldn't find the pictures I wanted but there you go anyway...

This example also adds to what i've been saying all along in this thread. The British Russians and the US all raced to snap up research areas for a reason. And there is no question that post war there was a very noticeable jump in technology across the board militarily which is about right for the time it would take to sift evaluate and get started on a project based off of captured documents while at the same time having allied service men track down any people needed that were originally involved in the project...

Oh and proof of the american harvesting of nazi research can be found in this

President Harry Truman's Executive Order 9604, also known as the "License to Steal,"

There's your proof of the wholesale nature of the looting of the German technical knowledge base and many of it's people as well!

Originally posted by roguetechie
Oh and proof of the american harvesting of nazi research can be found in this

President Harry Truman's Executive Order 9604, also known as the "License to Steal,"

Actually if you had bothered to read that executive order it states
"PROVIDING FOR THE RELEASE OF SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION (EXTENSION AND AMENDMENT OF EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 9568) (1
By virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes, as President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy, and in order to provide for the release and dissemination of certain scientific and industrial information heretofore or hereafter obtained from the enemy by any department or agency of this Government, to the end that such information may be of maximum benefit to the public, it is hereby ordered as follows:

1. It is the policy of this Government, subject to the requirements of national military security, that there shall be prompt, public, free and general dissemination of enemy scientific and industrial information......... "

www.trumanlibrary.org...

So the executive order is not about gaining information, but simply releasing it to the public.

Ok so I'll post it here too
harpers article DETAILING the THEFT OF GERMAN TECHNOLOGY ON A WHOLESALE ORGANIZED SCALE

Funny thing about this article... it's in the October 1946 issue of harpers which is the ONLY issue of harpers that is somehow unavailable in the library of congress... Why is it so hard for people to see the blatant LIES (most people kindly refer to it as revisionism but it's LIES) that are salted liberally throughout the versions of history taught in western academic institutions... I can always tell who didn't pay attention in history classes beyond memorizing dates and most definitelly didn't put any effort in to researching history beyond that level REQUIRED to get through school. Usually because they're the one's that scream the loudest and claim to know the most in these threads while NEVER EVER providing PROOF or links to back up their assertions... because as they put it, It's COMMON KNOWLEDGE. Funny thing about common knowledge ... it's usually a lie a half truth or at best highly agenda driven retellings of events.

then there is the rest of the articles I've cited over and over...
funny thing is I back up my assertions with PROOF where it can be had and if not out and out black and white proof I post the information you need to logically draw the conclusions I drew from a suite of other information tangentially related to the subject that creates a picture conducive to my assertions!!

It's quite interesting really ... I have noticed a few different people that show a dogged DEDICATION to refuting these claims... yet they seem to curiously lack near as much documentary evidence as the side i champion has...
This is kind of sad really considering how much information is still classified and or was deliberately destroyed to prevent replication of certain technological leaps by outside parties governmental or private.

While i understand that what we are talking about seriously jeopardizes and calls into question the entire paradigm of allies good allies smart axis bad axis stupid that westerners are taught from grade school onward...
still it's seriously unfortunate that on a site that is supposed to be dedicated to TRUTH not revisionism and mainstream propaganda people can't just do their own research and draw conclusions that are different than the political Correct mafia without it physically PAINING you.

I produce REAMS of documentary evidence which is then rejected out of hand by those that want to parrot the party line mainstream revisionism as somehow biased and wrong...

reply to post by roguetechie


"Theft" of Nazi technology / patents / prototypes et al = To the Victor the spoils! The allies would have been complacent had they not benefitted from the output of Nazi innovation.

I don’t think anyone is contesting that the victorious allies took what they wished of Nazi innovation and where applicable redeveloped, refined and adopted. Where there is a difference is the assertion that the Nazi’s were developing / developed technologies which were so far advanced or that they have been unattainable even by today’s scientists. The OP considers the technology may have existed for a mission to Mars and some posts have asserted that the Nazi's had all sorts death rays, plasma weapons and all that pap!

The Nazi’s developed some novel solutions to the problems they faced, but those solutions were hardly over and above the types of developments going on with the allies with the exception of rocketry. In many cases the Nazi solutions were the wrong solution and based on a poorly conceived idea or belief. For example, Nazi submarine technology was overtaken by allied anti submarine doctrine and technology and even their jet aircraft were countered by the loss of air superiority over the battlefield and their unreliable jet engines which were less capable than the allied equivalents.

The Nazi’s may have first fielded guilded weapons, but there was parallel development going on with the allies (notably the US) who also fielded guided bombs, albeit slightly later. Besides, weapons like the Fritz guided bomb were eventually defeated by the advancement of electronic countermeasures.

I have no doubt that Nazi research in radar and proximity fuses were of acute interest to the allies who may have adopted ideas and methods, but in both fields the Nazi’s failed to better the allies because they placed higher priority in the requirements and in both areas they made the wrong decisions.

Regards

Ah but see I don't assert that they had or deployed death rays and plasma weapons...

I do assert that they were working on railguns ball lightning based plasma weapons MASERS LASERS particle beams and etcetera... as to anything being deployed.. obviously not

As far as the Theft aspect goes... *shrugs* I wasn't there I can't say what was right or not but it does irk me fairly badly that in school they teach kids that the Marshall plan was basically done out of the goodness of our hearts and I was told point blank by history teachers more than once that the allies DID NOT SEEK REPARATIONS at all post world war 2 because of the problems it caused after ww1.

As far as the reactionless propulsion and energy tech debate... well I have my view (which is that certain things are taught wrong and that maxwell was made symmetrical by heavyside unjustifiably but on purpose to obscure certain areas of investigation) and you have yours... we both have our reasons for believing what we do...

As far as calling the idea of them researching and making headway in these fields PAP .. is just plain trying to marginalize the proof I've posted.

The US military doesn't share your sentiments and spent lots of time and money getting people out of nuremberg and poring over the seized documentation for the better part of a decade just journalizing what they had managed to grab and publishing it.

I find it very interesting that you attempted to marginalize the Harpers article by making a strawman issue out of the whole Stolen assertion the author made... The information is valid yet you chose to focus on that word STOLEN... is that because I once again submitted proof that is inconvenient and impossible to refute the truth of so you have to bring in semantic arguments instead to try to call into question the validity of the information?

Originally posted by roguetechie
I find it very interesting that you attempted to marginalize the Harpers article by making a strawman issue out of the whole Stolen assertion the author made... The information is valid yet you chose to focus on that word STOLEN... is that because I once again submitted proof that is inconvenient and impossible to refute the truth of so you have to bring in semantic arguments instead to try to call into question the validity of the information?

No, I am not marginalising you article quoting Harper, but all Harper is doing is listing some novel Nazi innovations and hypothesising on the “what the German’s had planned” fantasy. It is well documented that the Nazi’s planned evolutions to their rockets, but it is also well documented that they never left the specification stage and faced the harsh realities that their development and manufacture were beyond the industrial or technical capability of the wizzo Nazi’s. I suppose it makes a good History Channel documentary to speculate what would have happened if the Nazi’s fielded an intercontinental rocket to strike at New York, or a supersonic-beam-weapon-armed-flying-saucer but it does not face the reality that it was a pipe dream – a fantasy.

The word “stolen” is just used because it has been implied in recent posts that the allies did just that. Regardless of the use of the word, the allies did systematically “harvest” (to use your word) Nazi innovation and technology and without a doubt invested a great deal of time and energy in so doing – that is well documented and undisputed. I am sure that much Nazi innovation was consequently adopted (rocketry being the most high profile one) in many fields, but there is a point where the evidence fizzles out out and fantasy and imagination takes over – all with the obligatory “artists impression” et al.

I contest that Nazi technology surpassed that of the allies – notably the British and US. In the major war-winning technologies the Nazi’s were behind. I do not disagree that the Nazi’s were innovative and proficient in some areas, but they were unable in turning some of the “on paper” theories and designs into workable solutions, whether they were fancy beam / plasma / tachyon / atomic / death ray / etc. etc. These represent the fantasyland of the Nazi technology myth.

Regards

reply to post by KingDoey


No they could not have.