Would a Nazi mission to Mars have really been possible in 1945?

Originally posted by roguetechie
There are technologies that have reared up their heads in places around the world from time to time since BEFORE world war 2 even techniques and technologies come out of the wood work ... Then someone from MIT or Stanford or GE or Westinghouse tells us No that just won't work... then the SEC leaks word the person is being investigated and if they don't get smart and get the hell out of town they wind up in prison or the NUT HUT...

Are you able to come up with some historic technologies which have been invented and subsequently been quashed as you described?

The fact is the Nazi's were only advanced in rocket technology and it is documented fact that the scientists from the programme directly influenced and ran the following space programme in the West and the Soviet Union after WW2. The Nazi's may have had other novel technologies in other areas, but nothing that was significant in the great scheme of things.

They may have had some unusual aircraft on paper or as prototype mock ups, but they did not have the technology or the time to develop the jet engines or their aircraft design philosophy. Their level of development in 1945 (as their world fell apart) was hampered by a lack of strategic leadership in development, design incoherence, a lack of manufacturing resources and material. The German jet engines of the day were unreliable and eclipsed by the developments of the allies - notably the British. Even rocket development was hobbled and the Nazi’s were building V2s with slave labour and under threat of bombing – hardly a nation with such a technological edge and manufacturing capability that they could afford to put men on Mars.

Regards

well in response to your comments about them "only" being ahead in rocket technology...

Ever heard of Air independent propulsion?

How about Lasers? Railguns? Particle beams? Vortex phsyics? Ball lightning type plasma? Inertial guidance systems? Supersonic flight? APFSDS ammunition? Ramjets? Television and specifically related to guided weapons...? Infra red based Night vision? The first practical combat helicopters? Synthetic fuels? fuel air explosives?

All of these are verifiable... Is that enough proof of stuff they were ahead on? If not read Sir Ian Fleming's original Bond Novels... and realize that he was on a British Technology recovery unit that raced the US and the Russians to capture as much of the nazi research as possible for his country.... Now that in itself should maybe be a hint. WHOLE Divisions were routed this way or that to facilitate the capture of research assets before others got to it or they managed to destroy it.

Beyond that answer ... Now to the answer about things that show up then get mocked back underground...

things like faraday and his belief in artificial neutral points... Schappeller and his prime mover, schauberger, tesla, and Keely all of which said the same things...

There's other things but you won't believe me anyway. But they are out there, and unless you experiment on your own you never really know whether those being called frauds are really that or whether it is someone's agenda to make it look that way.

if the nazis had that kind of technology they wouldn't have lost the war. so, no.

The assertion of Nazi technological prowess is often devoid of the important reality check and solid evidence. There is often no allowance or recognition that the allied technology countered all Nazi advances and credit is rarely given to the technology advances achieved and used as “war winning” systems from radar through to the atomic bomb. No number of pencil drawings of flashy aircraft designs can hide the fact that the Germans lost air superiority over the battlefield, jets or no jets.

To take the first of your examples…

Originally posted by roguetechie
Ever heard of Air independent propulsion?

How about Lasers? Railguns? Particle beams? Vortex phsyics? Ball lightning type plasma? Inertial guidance systems? Supersonic flight? APFSDS ammunition? Ramjets? Television and specifically related to guided weapons...? Infra red based Night vision? The first practical combat helicopters? Synthetic fuels? fuel air explosives?

Air independent propulsion - may have been developed by the Kriegsmarine but the technology and doctrine which drove the allied anti-submarine effort more than nullified German technical advances, which is why the Germans lost the Battle of the Atlantic at huge cost to men and material.

Lasers – please remind us all what the Nazi’s did with lasers? Please don’t say Death Rays!

Rail-guns – Nazi’s built on earlier French research if memory serves and never left the “proposition” stage, just like so many other so called technologies

Particle beam, vortex physics and ball lightning type plasma - are rolling down the road of fantasy because there is no evidence.

Inertial guidance systems - were pretty basic and used to point the V1 and V2 weapons in the right direction. What these weapons were NOT, was accurate.

Supersonic flight – although the sound barrier was probably broken by many pilots during the war (if momentarily) it was well after the war that the understanding of the sound barrier enabled aircraft designers to develop aircraft able to transit between subsonic and supersonic without falling to pieces. Note the words “well after the war”.

APFSDS ammunition – well the genesis of armour piercing discarding sabot was in France and then by Britain who fielded the shell in 1944.

Ramjets – was an evolution of design involving several nations and although it ended up in the V1 that particular weapon was countered by radar controlled AAA, fast interception and being bombed before launch.

… and on, and on.

Look, the Nazi’s were not running at the pinnacle of technology and did not have a space programme. It is fantasy to think so. They did have some novel and interesting technical achievements, but nothing which had any remote effect on the outcome of the war.

Regards

reply to post by snusfanatic


Technology does not equal a guarantee win in war, if this was the case we would have won in vietnam or even won our current wars.... Strategy equals victory not technology, the germans made strategic mistakes and that's what cost them the war...

reply to post by jheated5


i agree that technology doesn't guarantee victory. but the level of technology needed to travel to mars would be so advanced and so, almost, alien that i believe it could be used to conquer the world in the pre-atomic 1940s. even if you disagree with that, the technology would have at least been more visibly used in the hopes of turning the tide of the war and it'd be recorded in history.

reply to post by snusfanatic


Yeah I think a manned mission would require a much higher level of technology... I still don't understand how they survived on the moon with the cosmic radiation and the micro meteors zipping around....

So after you ask me to name technologies they pioneered you change what you're looking for?

The reality is I'm happy the nazi's lost (not one of those ubermensch types with shiny boots)

BUT the TRUTH is that much of the technology we see coming to the forefront now had the GROUND WORK laid by a desperate but highly schizophrenic german engineering and science apparatus that spent more time recovering from bombing raids than working at times...

As far as vortex physics, ball lightning and plasma weapons/ propulsion... YOU really ought to tell general atomics NORTHRUP GRUMMAN LOCKHEED Martin Boeing DARPA ARPA NASA JAXA and etcetera this...

Or did you miss the ATS thread going RIGHT NOW about plasma rockets? Or have you missed the russian and american experiments with pulsed power generation for the purpose of EMP and other arcane uses...

Hey what about MHD weapons aux power units and "miscellaneous" uses that are getting truly EPIC levels of funding?



I get SO SICK of holier than thou types coming in and telling me what is and isn't feasible and what is and isn't being worked on with NO REAL BACKING OF THEIR OPINION other than their say so!

It gets tiresome being accused of being uninformed when research that has been ongoing for THIRTY years or more across VAST portions of industry and government projects are SOMEHOW missed by people that want to come into threads and "debunk" what they consider Sci Fi fantasies.

I showed you exactly what you asked me to show you to prove my point... WHICH WAS ADVANCED technologies the nazi's were actively working at weaponizing. You arbitrarily blew off my list of more than a DOZEN EXAMPLES with snide remarks about someone else doing it first or it not reaching deployment. But obviously since there is a still a FRANCE and a BELGIUM etc they didn't manage to deploy much of this stuff.

I hate when people pretend to be reasonable and ACTUALLY interested in THE EXCHANGE of IDEAS AND INFORMATION when in reality they just want to FORCE THEIR VIEWS on me and expect me to thank them for their rude, uninformed, and CONDESCENDING comments.

reply to post by roguetechie


Roguetechie, the fact is that some of the “technologies” you cited as being Nazi were conceivedby others before the war and just because the Nazi's explored them does not make it a Nazi "achievement". Others you cited remain fantasy technology and still more were not Nazi at all. All the warring parties developed new technologies, but there is often little credit to the allies who made substantial advances. Nazi technology is usually overblown and exaggerated and relies a few areas of leadership and fantasy, such as what the OP is about – space flight and a trip to Mars!

Taking a hurt posture and accusing others of rudeness when they have the audacity and wherewithal to challenge what you say does not add to debate. If you are so sure of what you say then please say so, such as (er) perhaps tell us all what vortex physics is and point to the evidence that this was a live Nazi programme.

Regards

or maybe you could type things like kugelblitz plasma weapon into google and see the history darpa nd the air force has with it...

as for vortex physics take a look at rodin's site sometime ... then physorg etc...

as far as coal based synthetic fuel and etc... (oh and water injection into motors to increase fuel economy and power another one they pioneered) Not to mention wire guided missiles, tv guided missiles and bombs, and IR seeker heads, as well as IR based night vision and targeting systems...)

See the thing is I made assertions which are all very very easy to prove, so easy and in fact so common knowledge in this subject that I really shouldn't have to do YOUR work for you and show you what you should already know about if you're going to pop into a thread and try to act like your views carry more weight than other people's even though your lack of knowledge is demonstrated AMPLY by the things you don't seem to know about that are in even junior high level books about world war 2.

reply to post by roguetechie


Ah, I took your advice and did some Google research in the hope I missed something the first time around, but all I got bunch of quack websites, Hitler living in the South Pole, Nazi UFOs, death rays, electrostatic weapons and all the usual pap that surrounds the Nazi technology myth. All unproven and all based on nothing more than supposition, invention and fantasy. I am not asking you to do the work for me, jut clarify what you mean because there are several websites which all claim a different fantasy as being the correct one.

I am not disputing that the Nazi’s came up with novel ideas because they did and I could even add to your list, but a few technical advancements in weaponry are not “new technologies” per se. What I am disputing is that they had technologies which were soooo advanced that they are still secret and if I “pop my head into a thread” to challenge what people are saying then so be it.

If you are unable to cope with a challenge and come up with the evidence then you should not make to assertion.

Regards

Sommerfield was a serious physicist and coined the theoretical particle called the tachyon. As a serious academic he would have have known and disclosed if he had a proof that it actually existed . I guess the tachyon is out of the drive

I do not see why it would not of been possible. Look at the solid rocket fuel that we still use today. That stuff was developed a long time ago. Sure technology has changed and improved but the vast majority of it is based off really old stuff.

While you will constantly be disappointed in finding anything directly about the nazi experiments (what paperwork did exist is still buried extremely deeply in russian, american, and british archives from their tech retrieval teams.

www.aerogel.org... this is a very well put together article on Aerogel research... this ties in because the supposed VIKTALEN hull material nazi's were said to use in the some of their stuff was refered to as FROZEN SMOKE... As background info just for your personal knowledge if you search aerogel on wiki you'll find it was NOT NEW by world war 2 and it's HIGHLY plausible considering paper clip and Aerogel really only being researched until very recently in the space community in the US.


BUT plasma weapon research based off of ball lightning is quite real

en.wikipedia.org... plasma weapon from hunt for zero point
www.wired.com...-149212553
www.kirtland.af.mil... shiva star pdf from AF

So here's your plasma weapons... I've established my other points as well as far as the Nazi's treading many of the paths we are barely starting to EFFECTIVELY exploit in the last couple of decades....

As far as why they didn't win the war (THANK GOD) and why we didn't see this technology on the battlefield. That is simple, and historically verifiable.

First off we have Hitler and the ENTIRE high command which was MERCURIAL at best and had so many projects going that they funded intermittently and just like in the current PENTAGON acquisitions structure today including EGO, Political infighting, Patronage, and other games that create cost overruns and cancellations. Throw in the insanity of their high command and Hitler firing people and cancelling projects or changing their whole drive at will plus the military's KNOWN lack of understanding that PERFECT is the enemy of good enough.

Then factor in Bombing raids that were making even standardized and well established technology hard to produce (imagine trying to run a wafer fab that gets bombed every three days). And German industry never really being geared for mass production but instead for high quality high precision artisan items.

THis gives you the socioeconomic underpinning that lead to ineffective implementation of even well understood technological edges they had in their possession!

Now I do understand the lack of documentation can be vexxing and the woo woo FRUITCAKEY nature of many of the sources available is a pet peeve of mine as well.... This is a classic disarmament technique to prevent explosive information that they cannot deny to be discredited instead.

The reality is if you do your DUE DILIGENCE in researching this field and work backwards through extrapolation and deductive reasoning at points where the information gets thin. This is also where you are required to cross check and follow propagation of ideas and look at the names on engineering teams cross referenced with what we know and can extrapolate from paper clip and other operations...

Throw into this more solid sources that instead of coming out and saying things instead turned their experiences in the war into some very interesting "fictional accounts" that abound post war. The most famous of these thinly disguised fictional accounts when you factor in the background of the writer is the James Bond series of novels by Ian Fleming.... Who during the war was on a technology retrieval team for the british who were in a 3 way race with the americans and the russians to cherry pick the best classified facilities to capture.

And if you want to doubt that this part of allied combat operations were real then I challenge you to provide alternate explanations for why patton's army was redirected directly at several research areas rather than racing the russians to berlin.

reply to post by tiger5


tachyons are out of the watchmen yeah?

A tachyon (pronounced /ˈtæki.ɒn/; Greek: ταχύς, takhus, "swift" + English: -on "elementary particle") is a hypothetical subatomic particle that moves faster than light.

no experimental evidence for the existence of tachyon particles has been found.

IF the Nazis could have reached Mars, it would have been all over for the Allies.
Germany's inability to strike at the U.S. is a major factor in how they lost.

The Allies had access to war materiel that the Axis powers couldn't reach (apart from Pearl Harbor and sabotage efforts of course). If Germany could have reached Mars, hitting the US would not have been an issue, (and we'd all be speaking German right now)....

First I have to say LOL @ Tachyons are out of the watchmen yeah?

Ok so why should we believe anything you say after your only exposure to a concept is bad movie remakes of a COMIC BOOK? Now the tachyon drive stuff to me reeks of counter intel insertions to make other leaks seem less plausible.

And I'm crazy and deluded for thinking the nazi's had advanced technology (You will get no dispute whatsoever from me that they had ZERO ability to mass produce or even serial low rate produce most of the tech they did develop and use it to fight, But that is MUCH DIFFERENT than saying they DID NOT HAVE IT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T use it against us...)

Saying they didnt have it because they didn't use it against us is like calling someone a liar for saying they don't have a plasma tv because they didn't bring it with them to applebees with them to PROVE IT. They were being bombed night and day sabotaged by the occupied populace and their slave workforce... they barely managed to build me-262's and a good portion of their munitions for the last year of the war came from switzerland in returning casualty trains which were safed from allied bombardment due to humanitarian concern. This doesn't mean it didn't exist just that they couldn't implement it.

and Gazrok in answer to your if they had that tech they would have used it to bomb the US statement, I have a theory about why that never happened.

When you look at even the conventional weapons projects like the prop based giant messerschmitt bombers and the towed V-2 VLS systems I notice that while HITLER pushed these systems very hard and wanted nothing more than to hit the US at home. His marshals, who already knew the war was turning and were in some cases negotiating clandestinely already with the allies had a very GOOD reason to throw roadblocks up in front of these projects.
How nice were the Russians to their captured nazi engineers? Notice that when it came to the Russians they had to CAPTURE the engineers... the US had engineers ... HELL whole subsections of the war materiel industry were looking to surrender to AMERICANS and when it looked like the Russians would get there first they BLEW THEIR LABS and RAN!!!

Now the difference between the receptions and how these people were dealt with is simple... They didn't BOMB US!! I do not doubt that this is not a coincidence... there seems to have been a concerted effort by some in the command structure that KNEW they would need at least one group that didn't have every reason to use them and put a bullet in them post war. Matter of fact there is some evidence of this forethought in mainstream sources so my theory is not really a stretch.

I've read all comments. I'm far from a nazi lover. I usually place one or two adjectives in front of that term.

I do have to the bastards credit for one invention still used on the battle field today. The wire guided bomb which has been adapted to the wire guided missile such as early versions of the TOW.

It was only because of the success of the early bombs that the Luftwaffe didn't tell Hitler of the success as they wanted money for more planes and not smart bombs. The National Geographic recent had a show on with rebuilt Fritz X bombs and their history.

While this may or may not have been a game changer is open for debate. Germany had the potential to sink allied shipping with airplanes. The fact remains, the Allies owned the sky over areas where German airplanes could operate in the Atlantic.

How does this have anything with Mars. Not one thing....

reply to post by roguetechie


Hmmm, if this is meant for me you should not assume these things about people, as you would be very wrong about my knowledge of high energy particle physics and quantum mechanics. (if not please disregard,)

Originally posted by roguetechie

Ok so why should we believe anything you say after your only exposure to a concept is bad movie remakes of a COMIC BOOK? Now the tachyon drive stuff to me reeks of counter intel insertions to make other leaks seem less plausible.

reply to post by Freedom_is_Slavery


tachyons have been used in many scifi plots, amongst all forms of entertainment. they are, however, a real theorized particle. correct though that they have never been found. i wish i could remember where i read this, but i do recall reading once that one school of thought on the subject thinks that tachyons may have all exited our universe shortly after the big bang.