Did Jesjuah stage his own death in order to escape from it all?

reply to post by IAMIAM




Christ didnt build iit, he destroyed it over time inside out through mere ideas, or a religion. The Romans did excellent up until they crucified Christ, after that they slowly declined and were eventually beaten and sacked by Barbarian tribes. I think the spread of Christianity through the roman territories caused division among the people, social unrest, and made their armies a fair bit weaker because alot of the conscripts were Christian.

The Roman Empire couldnt stand without its foundation. Christ shook that foundation to its' core, in death! Roman socierty was based on their Pantheon of Polytheisric Idols, Caesar being a God, brutal warfare against anyone in their way, bloodsports like arena shows, and just about every sin possible. Lets see.. theyd eat so much that theyd force themselves to vomit, then theyd keep eating. They were notorious drunkards, one of the most popular sexual relationships of the day was between a grown man and a young man or teenage boy. They murdered each other for political clout, they had orgies, etc. When these people converted to Christianity, they knew that all these things were not only wrong, but serious sins. The biggest reason is because many of the Christian converts refused to fight in the wars or in the armies. They tried to kill him, and instead they made his story and teachings live forever through all the former provinces of Rome, except for some Islamic countries.I mean think about it...the whole of Europe went Christian because of Rome, so did Russia and eastern Europe, as well as North Africa for a time.

It's like trying to silence someone because their doctrine is dangerous to your establishment, but making a martyr out of him in the process, causing an even larger problem for yourself than when he was alive.

reply to post by Rustami


What is a pitcher or a crane worth if the blood that moves it is the enemy of God? What would it mean if the Mesjiach would still be just a stolen memory, and not something heartfelt? Where would the jaguar run, where would the lion feed? Our lions just want to sleep with lambs.....

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!

it's all in there

reply to post by adjensen

dodged no question, as none was asked.

"In the unlikely event that he was a real character he didn't suffer very much did he ? (that was the question.

At what point do you think torture is unacceptable? How many days would Christ have had to hang on the cross before the sadist in you would say he'd "suffered enough"?

I don't think torture is acceptable under any circumstances but clearly the yahweh jesus god does find torture very acceptable otherwise he wouldn't (according to the tall tale) have employed it to begin with would he ?

That you are proud of this cruelty and insensitivity is disturbing. That you think you hold some sort of moral high ground because of it is appalling.

Yes I certainly do hold the moral high ground by the looks of it my friend, I wouldn't even entertain the thought of torturing someone let alone my own child !

That aside, lets not digress from the point which is, If the story were actually true then the godman jesus got off pretty lightly didn't he ? He was tortured for a very short period of time compared to any other victim who would have been left hanging till his bones were picked clean.

The real icing on the cake is that jesus was parading around the place showing off his wounds three days later while the other guys were probably still screaming on their crosses.

So, in summary - Jesus didn't suffer as much as mortal men and jesus didn't die .

No sacrifice here my friend, nothing to aspire to nothing to feel guilty about, it was his own idea which clearly backfired on him .

Oh the lies that Christians tell little children to keep them compliant and afraid and ripe for rape !

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by adjensen

 

dodged no question, as none was asked.

"In the unlikely event that he was a real character he didn't suffer very much did he ? (that was the question.

Not much of a question, and yes, I did answer it by saying that beating, scourging and being nailed to a cross was suffering.

At what point do you think torture is unacceptable? How many days would Christ have had to hang on the cross before the sadist in you would say he'd "suffered enough"?

I don't think torture is acceptable under any circumstances

You clearly do, since you are able to quantify it, and determine that it is unjust for one man to be tortured for an hour and another to be tortured for two hours. The non-sadist would say that it is unjust for anyone to be tortured for any amount of time.

Typical angry and irrational atheist -- it's terrible to hate anyone, unless they are a Christian, and, apparently, torture is terrible, unless it's done to Christ, in which case, what he got apparently wasn't enough to satisfy you.

That you are proud of this cruelty and insensitivity is disturbing. That you think you hold some sort of moral high ground because of it is appalling.

That aside, lets not digress from the point which is, If the story were actually true then the godman jesus got off pretty lightly didn't he ? He was tortured for a very short period of time compared to any other victim who would have been left hanging till his bones were picked clean.

You and I are like the thieves hanging on either side of him. I recognize my shortcomings and my role in things, and that Christ did nothing to deserve his fate, while you and I did.

You, on the other hand, snivel about the injustice of someone dying too quickly from their torture because it offends you personally. As with said thief, when the time comes, you will be welcome to explain how you justify your sadistic belief that an innocent man should have been tortured longer than he was.

That time is not now -- you've demonstrated your cruelty and inhumanity sufficiently here. If you want to get out of your hole, I'd suggest stopping the dig.

reply to post by adjensen

You, on the other hand, snivel about the injustice of someone dying too quickly from their torture

Get a grip please this has nothing to do with injustice .

Jesus' suffering would have been very short in comparison to most victims of crucifixion, agree or disagree ?

Jesus (according to christians) is an omniscient being and therefore cannot die and was obviously aware of this before he had himself martyred.

Jesus is alleged to be alive 3 days after he was alleged to be dead .

CONCLUSION

Jesus suffered no more but plenty less than other victims of crucifixion.

No sacrifice occurred.
Sacrifice by definition requires a loss by he who sacrifices, as both he that is alleged to have sacrificed and he that was the sacrificed were one and the same "omnipresent" being and he that was sacrificed was reported to be alive quite soon after the event there simply could not have been any loss.

No one died for anyone, and what suffering he was alleged to have endured was of his own volition it was simply his big idea to begin with .

A big trick to enslave the minds of the young,ignorant and gullible.

Again, depending on which jesus your talking about.

reply to post by adjensen

You and I are like the thieves hanging on either side of him.

You and I are nothing alike my friend, I require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, especially when the claims are mere hearsay.

I find the entire notion of human and blood sacrifice completely repugnant and I certainly would not even entertain the thought of killing my own child either as a punishment for he poor behavior, let alone for someone else to avoid taking responsibility for their own.

I recognize my shortcomings and my role in things, and that Christ did nothing to deserve his fate, while you and I did.

Dude, even if the story was true it would have had nothing to do with me I wasn't even there. More importantly if I was I would have made every effort to prevent it happening .

Only a sick and disgusting mind could dream up such an appalling way to make someone comply, and as your god is alleged to be the author of "everything" both good and evil who clearly could not think of a better way for his offspring to learn other than human sacrifice and torture, then this is the mind of a sicko.

Originally posted by The Djin
I find the entire notion of human and blood sacrifice completely repugnant and I certainly would not even entertain the thought of killing my own child either as a punishment for he poor behavior, let alone for someone else to avoid taking responsibility for their own.

Where on earth do you get the notion that God killed Jesus? You're clearly deficient in theology, so I'll ignore the fact that you don't understand the Trinity, but only ignorance could excuse the statement "God killed Jesus."

Like I said, your best bet is to stop digging. Every post you make shows your indifference to suffering and ignorance as to the beliefs you claim to hate.

reply to post by adjensen

Where on earth do you get the notion that God killed Jesus? You're clearly deficient in theology, so I'll ignore the fact that you don't understand the Trinity, but only ignorance could excuse the statement "God killed Jesus."

Theology is no more relevant than the study of fairies or smurfs my friend get a grip .


If yahwhe and jesus are seperate entities then Yahwhe killed jesus (or had someone kill him)

If yahweh and jesus are the same entity then yahweh killed himself (or had himself killed)

As the author of all that there is was or will ever be this is inescapable.

Jesus got off very lightly with his sentence compared to most victims of cruicifiction

Again jesus or yahwhe or both could not and did not die therefore there was no sacrifice period.

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by adjensen

 

Where on earth do you get the notion that God killed Jesus? You're clearly deficient in theology, so I'll ignore the fact that you don't understand the Trinity, but only ignorance could excuse the statement "God killed Jesus."

Theology is no more relevant than the study of fairies or smurfs my friend get a grip .

You know how the motto of ATS is "Deny ignorance"? You are making a theological argument, while admitting complete ignorance of theology, even denouncing its relevance. You don't deny ignorance, you embrace it. You make it a part of your argument. You've demonstrated your cruelty and hatred, but are you truly this vapid as well?

God did not kill Jesus. Did not do it himself, did not "get others to do it for him." This is both a factual statement and a theologic one.

Whether atheist or theist, attempting to make theological arguments based on ignorance will generally result in these sorts of biased and unfounded conclusions.

Keep digging, Djin, I think you're almost out of that hole!

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Hemisphere

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Hemisphere
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us." Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

You do realize, I hope, that this is not a quote from a Pope, but a line from the satiric play "The Pageant of the Popes" by the Protestant playwright John Bale.

Well, I suppose that you didn't know that. Kinda makes your credibility suffer, though.

Neither I nor my credibility suffers. Rubes suffer. Yes, yes it has been attributed to numerous historical persons. Read any of the heavily edited histories of the papacy and you will likely come away knowing what perhaps Bale knew and that is the Church and the hierarchy never beleived what they were selling.

Or perhaps he was writing a satire. You do understand what a satire is, right?

For the rest of it, as I said, your credibility suffered, so your opinion is of little consequence. You claimed a quote came from Pope Leo X and when shown that it did not, you prevaricate and claim that Bale put a legitimate quote in an otherwise satirical play, despite the far-fetched chance of any Pope publicly saying anything remotely like that.

When one displays a radical bias, is proven to be wrong, and then continues on with their diatribe, it's not particularly interesting, sorry.

I'm not an apologist for the Catholic Church, which has its fair share of faults, but I can base my criticism on truth, not lies.

You are an apologist, despite your front. You were not accused and yet you needed to affirm that? Thou dost protest too much. You did, sir or madame, call me a liar. Mistaken, if at all, does not make me a liar.

Radical bias? Pedophilia is not an acceptable practice in most locations in my reality. If thinking that the Church is wrong for hiding pedophilia for decades if not centuries and... that pedophilia is but the tip of the iceberg in the Church's ongoing and voluminous immoral practices dating back to the first centuries CE and... if that thinking is considered radical by you or anyone then yes, I am a radical. I am radical in that I distrust Rome and her ages old political tool the Church and all subsequent versions of Christianity stemming from it.

Enough pontificating for you? I would think so and me too. If you can get by my mistake (and there's no way of knowing for certain unless we dig up Bale) and you want a bit of information on the Church and the corruption from it's outset, I suggest the works of Joseph McCabe. I would start with "A History Of The Popes" from 1939, this can be read or downloaded free on-line. Here's just one source: A History Of The Popes Reading this I think will give you another perspective of what or what not a Pope might have said. Popes throughout the ages have taken great liberties as they are and were only human, puppets of the Roman elite and not divine authorities on earth, just my opinion. There's also a massive, interesting and informative thread here on ATS regarding the ongoing and widespread Roman influence on the world. It can be found here: All Roads Lead To Rome

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” - Seneca

And this from a Roman prior to their authoring modern Christianity.

reply to post by adjensen

God did not kill Jesus. Did not do it himself, did not "get others to do it for him." This is both a factual statement and a theologic one.

So be it my friend if that what you insist upon so be it.

Nevertheless -

If yahweh is the omnipotent author of all that there is,was or will ever be then -

If jesus and yahwe are one and the same being, he killed himself /had himself killed

If yahwhe is a separate entity to jesus then yahwhe killed jesus / had jesus killed

jesus/yahweh was spared a great deal of suffering compared to most men that were crucified.



No sacrifice was made as there was no loss (an omnipotent being cannot die) incurred and any suffering endured was far less than normal.

Fairy tale warp the minds of little children the uneducated and ignorant

Originally posted by Hemisphere

Originally posted by adjensen
I'm not an apologist for the Catholic Church, which has its fair share of faults, but I can base my criticism on truth, not lies.

You are an apologist, despite your front. You were not accused and yet you needed to affirm that? Thou dost protest too much. You did, sir or madame, call me a liar. Mistaken, if at all, does not make me a liar.

I am an apologist for the Christian faith, not for the Catholic church, just as I stated. The Catholic church has done plenty of terrible things, and continues to do so, which I will not defend, as I deplore it as much as anyone.

However, this does not equate to a slur on the Christian faith, and neither will I not correct misstatements, such as yours, about the Catholic church. They've enough problems without people making stuff up or passing off quotes from fiction as having come from the mouth of the Pope.

Originally posted by The Djin
If yahweh is the omnipotent author of all that there is,was or will ever be then -

If jesus and yahwe are one and the same being, he killed himself /had himself killed

If yahwhe is a separate entity to jesus then yahwhe killed jesus / had jesus killed

Are you simply on a crusade to demonstrate your ignorance? You clearly don't understand what omnipotent means -- it doesn't mean "does everything". And you still continue to attempt to make a theological argument from a total ignorance of theology.

Regardless of the nature of Father and Son, Jesus was killed. Killed, dead and buried, despite your ignorant claim otherwise. He was subsequently resurrected in body, as Christians believe we all will be.

And he was killed by men, not by himself, and not by the Father. Why you can't get that though your head, apart from needing to stay comfortable in your biases, I don't know.

jesus/yahweh was spared a great deal of suffering compared to most men that were crucified.

By what measure do you dare measure others' suffering? You decry God, yet you act like you ARE God.

If you don't think yourself a sadist, you might wish to spend a bit of time in reflection as to why you think Christ should have suffered more, rather than just posting another ignorant reply.

reply to post by adjensen

Regardless of the nature of Father and Son, Jesus was killed. Killed, dead and buried, despite your ignorant claim otherwise. He was subsequently resurrected in body, as Christians believe we all will be.

Ignorant ?really ? For your information the allegation is that jesus son of joseph was "Entombed" not buried coincidentally one jesus son of joseph was residing "entombed" at Talpiot , not your jesus I bet ?

Again my friend no sacrifice was made if you want to get into a debate around omnipotence well hey we can skip it and save you some breath.

Jesus (yaweh ) a god cannot die the alpha and omega and all that, remember the creator of all that there is,was or will ever be ?

So, god, yawhe turns comes to earth again in a different human form calling himself jesus. As part of "his" marvelous plan for you (the deluded) and gets some Romans to kill him.

Lo and behold a god cannot die and as testimony to this he came back alive again in a couple of days wounds and all then disappeared (without being killed) up into the sky to join himself where he was probably hanging out for the 3 days he was supposed to be dead.

And he was killed by men,

Men acting according to the big plan because if they didn't we wouldn't be having this conversation and as yahwhe / jesus is the alleged creator of everything there is ,was or will ever be then no event could take place outside of that plan (design).

Whatever -
apparently jesus (god/yahweh) is still around alive and well according to xtians a "living god" so he did not die and there was no sacrifice the god did not lose a son, how is it possible for an omniscient being to lose anything ?

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Judge not, Love all, be at peace.

With Love,

Your Brother

man do i love your way of thinking

its obvious to me at least, that those who cling to their bible havent read it all, just the choice and cliche parts that pertain to christian, like john 3:16 and crap

but once having really studied and understand we can all get to the point of LOVE which is law

universal law of living

great posts as usual friend, glad to interact with you

Originally posted by The Djin
how is it possible for an omniscient being to lose anything ?

exactly, so no need for a made up devil and hellfire and end of world destruction and breeding hate and killing in the name of god and jesus

cause we all belong and all return

"this is just a ride" "its just a ride"