Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

Wrapping things up now to reflect the current state of research into this topic:

1) The bomb design schematic which Simon posted in this thread does reflect actual German work on nuclear weapons in WWII. The original document was the product of the heereswaffenamt and its clandestine bomb project, which was at least coordinated with the SS if not taken over entirely in 1943 or later by that organization.

2) However, Simon is mistaken about some important details. The uneven lines protruding from the sides of the sphere in the center of the bomb are not cones of lithium-6 deuteride. They are detonator wires. Here I must give a tip of my cap to "bedlam", who expressed his skepticism about this feature of the design some years ago. All available archival information indicates clearly that any fusion fuel intended for use in weapons that were built in this end of the German nuclear program would have been located in the very center of the various spherical implosion bombs.

3) The letter "Z" does not indicate a "plasma pinch" but rather according to Schumann himself is shorthand for "zundung", which is German for "ignition". As I mentioned upthread, there is contentious scientific literature in the public realm regarding whether an actual plasma pinch is a viable means of detonating a nuclear weapon, but whether it is or is not, a plasma pinch was not what Schumann and Trinks were trying to accomplish with this particular bomb.

4) There were in fact a number of Schumann-Trinks devices, not just one. Most were variations on a boosted fission - implosion concept for a strategic nuclear weapon, but biconic and linear implosion designs were also definitely explored. The origin of the latter work seems to be that it was probably intended for use in tactical or battlefield nukes. See for example: www.quora.com...

5) Although it is very likely that WWII Germany did pursue, and probably achieved, the production of varying amounts of all three of the primary bomb fuels---U-233, U-235, and P-239---the bomb described in the original Schumann-Trinks schematic did not specify that it was intended for use with U-233 as the fissile material. Note that this is not as important a detail as some others are, because all three of the standard materials could have been used. A blended core would also almost certainly have been viable if the Germans had chosen to go that route. However, the possibility that known German interest in U-233 had some effect on the Japanese nuclear weapons program---specifically, the end of war crash project in northern Korea---cannot be dismissed out of hand because Japan is also known to have pursued the production of U-233. This utilized thousands of tons of thorium ores which were extracted from sizable mining operations in Korea and possibly elsewhere within their empire.

a reply to: williamjpellas

I have never heard of that book and the fact that it's not being sold but offered up for free makes me suspicious. A simple google search for reviews of the book brings up nothing whatsoever, which makes me even more suspicious.
Let me answer a few of your points: the Germans did not use their massive stash of chemical weapons because they knew perfectly well that if they had then Germany would have been bombed in reprisal with equally terrible weapons.
I found the entire premise behind this thread laughable a decade ago and I continue to find it laughable now. No German nuclear tests took place because there has never been any proof of their existence.
And before you try to explain about how the resulting nuclear radiation would have died away by now, thanks to the rain and half-lives, I would like to point out that the Polish authorities and other Governments in Eastern Europe did not discover any irradiated sites or locations that had seen nuclear weapons tested on them in the 1940's, 1950's or 1960's.
When they tested the first bomb at Los Alamos the explosion could be seen and heard for miles all around. There were not thousands of witnesses to any test in 1943 or 1944 or even 1945 and besides in early 1945 most of Poland was in Russian hands, so that's a second lot of people who didn't notice anything.

EDIIT: one final point. Something's been bothering me about the tall tale told by that Italian (why Benny the Moose wasn't invited to the test is another poser). He said it was on Rugen I believe. By March 1945 the Soviets were in Pomerania, with their forces on the coast there. Soviet planes were in the air and Soviet ships were in the Baltic. All saw nothing about any such test. I wonder why?

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: williamjpellas

I have never heard of that book and the fact that it's not being sold but offered up for free makes me suspicious. A simple google search for reviews of the book brings up nothing whatsoever, which makes me even more suspicious.
Let me answer a few of your points: the Germans did not use their massive stash of chemical weapons because they knew perfectly well that if they had then Germany would have been bombed in reprisal with equally terrible weapons.
I found the entire premise behind this thread laughable a decade ago and I continue to find it laughable now. No German nuclear tests took place because there has never been any proof of their existence.
And before you try to explain about how the resulting nuclear radiation would have died away by now, thanks to the rain and half-lives, I would like to point out that the Polish authorities and other Governments in Eastern Europe did not discover any irradiated sites or locations that had seen nuclear weapons tested on them in the 1940's, 1950's or 1960's.
When they tested the first bomb at Los Alamos the explosion could be seen and heard for miles all around. There were not thousands of witnesses to any test in 1943 or 1944 or even 1945 and besides in early 1945 most of Poland was in Russian hands, so that's a second lot of people who didn't notice anything.

EDIIT: one final point. Something's been bothering me about the tall tale told by that Italian (why Benny the Moose wasn't invited to the test is another poser). He said it was on Rugen I believe. By March 1945 the Soviets were in Pomerania, with their forces on the coast there. Soviet planes were in the air and Soviet ships were in the Baltic. All saw nothing about any such test. I wonder why?

Dr. Rider's book was completed in 2020 and was first offered online for free less than 6 months ago. That might be part of the reason why knowledge of it, and reviews about it, have not yet percolated out to the four corners of the internet. However, formal reviews do exist. They are included in Forgotten Creators. Here are some of them. You will readily see that these are reputable and otherwise mainstream people (not that "the mainstream" is always right, obviously).

"Todd H. Rider's Forgotten Creators is a monumental treatise about and an exciting intellectual journey through the contributions of scientists and technologists in Germany and other Central European countries and German-speaking areas to universal progress. It is thoroughly researched, meticulously documented, and presented in an easy-to-perceive way. The pre-war and pre-Nazi German system of science support has lessons that would be difficult to emulate but worthy to ponder about even today. The long-range tragic consequences in science caused by National Socialism are well demonstrated as are the benefits in the West and in the East from the exodus of Jewish scientists before and the importation of others from Germany following World War II. The book is a virtually bottomless well for mining reliable information in the history of science and technology. The 'forgotten creators' are no longer forgotten. Todd is to be congratulated for his accomplishment and thanked for sharing it so generously with the international community."

István Hargittai, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, Budapest University of Technology and Economics, author of Buried Glory, Candid Science, Drive and Curiosity, Great Minds, Judging Edward Teller, Martians of Science, and The Road to Stockholm




"Todd H. Rider's Forgotten Creators is an encyclopedic consideration of Germany's central place in the advancement of science and technology between 1800 and 1945. Drawing upon a wide range of sources, Rider has summarized that effort in a survey that will impress the reader just as much for the breadth of German intellectual achievement as for the influence that achievement has had upon the modern world."

George W. Cully, retired Director, Office of History at Air University, Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama




"The scope and ambition of Forgotten Creators is really incredible. It is a work of great scholarship, an effective narrative with many historical quotes by scientists and their contemporaries that make it a very engaging read. It is richly illustrated with so many photos of researchers, where they worked, maps, patents, etc. I think this book will be of great value to historians of science and public policy institutions. I also think that as the center of economic and scientific innovation seems to be shifting from West to East, many forward-thinking people in Asia will be reading this book closely as they consider their own path ahead."

Brian Dempsey, President, Massachusetts Association of Biology Teachers




"The current fragmentation of scientific disciplines up to the point of marginalization raises the question whether examples from history do exist to overcome this situation. Todd Rider attempts an answer, posing the counter question: 'Which lessons can be learned from the most productive German-speaking inventors of the nineteenth and early twentieth century?' His intention is not only to start a discussion on the chances to successfully transfer former educational conditions to the present scientific system but also to remember the inventors. Forgotten Creators, published online, is an impressive compilation of German achievements, covering the natural sciences, mathematics, and engineering until WWII."

Gernot Eilers, German Federal Ministry for the Environment, Nature Conservation, and Nuclear Safety




"Todd H. Rider reminds us with Forgotten Creators that many key technologies like jet flight, helicopters, rocket propelled gliders, guided missiles, night vision, special alloys and welding methods, or simply synthetic rubber or polymer products that are common today were actually developed in the first half of the twentieth century in Central Europe under the control of Germany. These technologies belonged among the most valuable treasures the Allies won in the Second World War and triggered a strategic arms race among the newly emerging superpowers in the subsequent decades of the Cold War (which some say had started already in 1945 in St. Georgen/Gusen, Austria). An indispensable new reference book for all who are interested in the history of technology and the twentieth century."

Rudolf A. Haunschmied, Gusen Memorial Committee, author of St. Georgen---Gusen---Mauthausen



"Todd Rider's Forgotten Creators is a really amazing overview of German technical history. Even contemporary historians will discover a lot of new references."

Rainer Karlsch, Institute for Contemporary History, Berlin, author of Leuna: 100 Jahre Chemie, Sowjetische Demontagen in Deutschland 1944--1949, Playing the Game: The History of Adidas, Uranbergbau im Kalten Krieg, Uran für Moskau, Hitlers Bombe, and Für und Wider "Hitlers Bombe"

More reviews of Forgotten Creators:

"The book Forgotten Creators is a really impressive book, as Todd H. Rider tries to mention all relevant German-speaking scientists and engineers and their scientific fields up to 1945 in this mammoth project. In this form, nobody has dared to do this before. The author deserves my full respect for this. I am pleased that we were able to support him in his research."

Thomas Köhler, Peenemünde Historical-Technical Museum historian and head of the archive, author of Vernichtender Fortschritt: Serienfertigung und Kriegseinsatz der Peenemünder "Vergeltungswaffen"




"Forgotten Creators is an examination of mid-twentieth-century German science and technology, studying the question of how this era came to be so productive. Using extensive reproduction of original materials and source accounts, the author is not only able to provide an overview of what is known about wartime activities, but is also able to indicate avenues for future historical research. The careful and comprehensive referencing permits the materials presented to be used in academic studies. A notable feature of this work is the fluid format provided by online publication, allowing revisions and new materials to be added. An especially important emphasis of the book is what can be learned from both the German-speaking scientists and the World War II era in general that could improve scientific productivity and creativity now."

Thomas Kunkle, Los Alamos National Laboratory, retired




"Forgotten Creators shows us some aspects of the German culture in form and content: it reflects the spirit of the German soul in the best of the senses, focused on the recent history of science mainly in Germany and the U.S. The style reminds me of some of the biggest creations of German culture: ambitious, brave, sublime, erudite, extensive, rigorous in the analyses and exhorting in the discourses. Great! It grasps the sociological problems of science nowadays, and it offers lucid pessimistic views and wise observations of the facts. There are two different leitmotivs: 1) the modern decline of our scientific and technical advances; 2) the highest importance of German science in the most important contributions of the twentieth century scientific and technological advances. Hence, the author posits interesting hypotheses that relate the decline of science and the recent history of Germany and its influence in the world. Risk-taking interpretations that are worth reading and thinking about."

Martín L'[o]pez-Corredoira, Instituto de Astrofísica de Canarias, author of The Twilight of the Scientific Age




"In the book Forgotten Creators, Todd H. Rider presents interesting perspectives that contribute to rethinking the story of the German nuclear project, as well as the role that heavy water had in it. The book also confirms the importance of the military actions carried out against heavy water production at Vemork."

Gunhild Lurås, Heavy Water Exhibition Curator, Norwegian Industrial Workers Museum, Vemork




"Encyclopedia. This was the very first word coming to my mind when reading Todd H. Rider's book. In one publication the reader is given the opportunity to review official documents as well as getting familiar with stories told by people who were involved in the development of modern technology. The book serves as a compendium of knowledge for all who are passionate about any kind of research and inventions, not only about the ones which saw the light during the Second World War and the German national socialism era. There is no doubt that many of German speaking scientists presented in the book have strongly contributed to the colossal technological progress and the development of new disciplines of science. However, when you read the book, I would encourage you not to focus on these magnificent discoveries only. Names like Wernher von Braun, Hubertus Strughold, and Otto Ambros trigger a negative connotation to many as their activities during the period of Nazi Germany are still not completely transparent. Read, think about it, and draw your own conclusions."

Marek Michalski, author of Labor Camp Treblinka I, researcher for the Treblinka Museum and Gross-Rosen Museum




"With his work, based on very comprehensive, thoroughly researched sources, Todd Rider has presented an astonishing study of the history of German science, especially in the first half of the twentieth century, which also reveals many connections that have been unjustly forgotten or little noticed. This also applies to numerous persons whose achievements are hardly known."

Günter Nagel, author of Wissenschaft für den Krieg, Himmlers Waffenforscher, Atomversuche in Deutschland, and Das geheime deutsche Uranprojekt 1939--1945




"A very valuable part of the book is devoted to the development of nuclear weapons in Germany during WWII, 1939--1945. While the histories of both the US/British Manhattan Project and the Soviet atomic project have been to a large extent declassified, little is actually known about the German work. Rider has done historians a favor by marshalling all of the evidence he could find in US, German, and Russian archives regarding the German atomic project. The inescapable conclusion is that the Germans were much farther advanced in nuclear weapons development than is generally thought."

Lee Pondrom, Professor Emeritus of Physics, University of Wisconsin-Madison, author of The Soviet Atomic Project: How the Soviet Union Obtained the Atomic Bomb




"Todd Rider's book Forgotten Creators, the creation of which I was able to observe and support for more than two years, is extraordinary in every respect. The sheer size of the book shows how important the role of German-speaking scientists was in the development of new technological advances. But it also shows the author's will to present as complete an account of this history as possible. He has succeeded in doing so. The work therefore serves both as an introductory book and as a reference book. It is highly recommended."

Georg Ribienski, Documentation Center Manager, Jonastalverein historical society, Thuringia




"Forgotten Creators by Todd Rider is an extraordinary work of detailed research and new insights into the technological advances contributed by German-speaking scientists. His lengthy and in-depth study of history often overlooked or not even seen in more cursory reviews is a refreshing read. His attempt to create the fullest account possible has resulted in a fine reference book that also serves to introduce new research for the reader. Rider's contention, right up front in the Executive Summary---that inventions and discoveries had their highest concentration of revolutionary innovations from scientists and engineers from the German-speaking central European research world in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries---demands the reader's attention. He then fills an enormous amount of over 4,000 pages with supporting details. Amazing subject matter and new revolutionary insights dug up through meticulous research make Forgotten Creators a 'must read' for serious historians and curious researchers alike."

D. Ray Smith, Oak Ridge Historian, retired Y-12 Historian, author, and newspaper columnist




"Todd Rider's extensively researched and amazingly detailed book opens a new world for everybody interested in the history of science. Never before has anyone dug as deeply into the sources as Todd has, such that

In terms of Romersa, you have the chronology of events wrong. The Rugen Island test was in October, 1944. The pair of detonations in Thuringia occurred in March, 1945. In between there was the nearest thing to a combat drop of an operational (if apparently still prototype) German atomic bomb somewhere in Poland, likely not far from the Auschwitz death camp. This probably took place in late November, 1944 per Werner Grothmann, Himmler's top wartime adjutant.

Re: massive Allied retaliation in the event of German use of nerve gas, yes, you are entirely correct. There would have been enormous air raids dropping a combination of high explosives and mustard gas, and probably also anthrax. The same strategic WMD calculation obviously occurred to the Nazi high command other than Hitler, who knew he was a dead man no matter what happened unless some kind of last second superweapon could repel the Allies from his doorstep. That said, the OKW war diary does contain an entry indicating that Hitler ordered the kriegsmarine to shell New York City with nerve gas artillery rounds fired from u-boat deck guns. This would have been in retaliation for the Allied firebombing of Dresden.

www.youtube.com...

There is also some evidence that the Nazi dictator ordered a nuclear strike on the western front, against British and American forces in the field. This would have been a German-style kamikaze mission, with a handful of tactical nuclear weapons (perhaps as few as 3) delivered by Me-109s. A known Luftwaffe mutiny followed by a mass execution of around 200 German Air Force personnel by the SS looks like the explanation for why this purported mission was never carried out. Goering also made reference to this upon his capture by US forces when he claimed to have "saved civilization" from some horrible German secret weapon. Sabotage by Goering may also be the explanation, or part of it, for why one of Hitler's last known orders was for Goering to be arrested (yes I know this was also a fight over who would succeed the Fuhrer).

Regarding Rider's book being offered for free, alright.

Do you ever watch YouTube? Ever visit a public library? Do you have a laptop, and if so, do you hop on the free WiFi at McDonald's or your local coffee shop? Are all those things worthless to you? Further, don't you offer your own writing for free, right here in this format? Do you believe your own work in this thread has no value because you are not charging admission?

Again, Angry Welshman, either you're willing to consider the hundreds of primary source documents and other evidence produced by Dr. Rider's massive multinational archival investigation, or you're not. It's kinda hard to speak knowledgeably, much less authoritatively, about any subject unless you first do your homework.

a reply to: williamjpellas

*Pinches bridge of nose in exasperation.*
I admit to getting the date of the mad Italian tale with no verification wrong, so fair enough. Rugen is barely off the coast of Germany and it's not an isolated island, it was planned to be a major holiday resort under the Nazis, something that came to pass under the Communists. No sign of any radiation or radioactive areas have ever been reported there.
I am aware of those reviews. I am also aware of the cherry-picking of words that go onto published works that pass as 'reviews'. The ones you have cited do not impress me. I remain deeply unimpressed by that book, which is not available anywhere other than that website.
There's no proof. You can't bring up a work of speculation and technical innuendo that seems to say that they might have developed atomic devices that were then not used due to middle-managers getting cold feet. That goes against everything we know about how the Third Reich, as morally corrupt a regime as it is possible to get, works.
It falls firmly under the label 'Napkinwaffe'. There's no proof of a single working atomic pile. No uranium enrichment facilities. No proof. Don't cite speculation, cite cold hard proof.
One last thing. Please don't use as cites your own Quora answers. It just looks and feels wrong.

originally posted by: williamjpellas
Again, Angry Welshman, either you're willing to consider the hundreds of primary source documents and other evidence produced by Dr. Rider's massive multinational archival investigation, or you're not. It's kinda hard to speak knowledgeably, much less authoritatively, about any subject unless you first do your homework.

Dr Rider seems to be only really known for his DRACO anti-viral work, which he failed to get crowdfunded to the point where it could get off the ground. He seems to have had some unspecified engineering training. He is not a historian and this book of his seems to have largely sunk without trace.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Thanks for the advice, but I don't answer to you. I linked the Quora posts because they incorporate considerable information drawn from Forgotten Creators and as I explained upthread, it was far more economical to simply link them than it was to rewrite them here on ATS.

Otherwise, you apparently visited Dr. Rider's website for all of---what---2 minutes? Alright, maybe it was 5. Which in your world was clearly enough time to read through the hundreds of pages concerning the archival finds in the US, UK, Germany, Austria, Russia, the Czech Republic, Australia, the Netherlands, and elsewhere.

Got it.

Have a nice day, sir. We're done here, obviously.

originally posted by: williamjpellas
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Thanks for the advice, but I don't answer to you. I linked the Quora posts because they incorporate considerable information drawn from Forgotten Creators and as I explained upthread, it was far more economical to simply link them than it was to rewrite them here on ATS.

Otherwise, you apparently visited Dr. Rider's website for all of---what---2 minutes? Alright, maybe it was 5. Which in your world was clearly enough time to read through the hundreds of pages concerning the archival finds in the US, UK, Germany, Austria, Russia, the Czech Republic, Australia, the Netherlands, and elsewhere.

Got it.

Have a nice day, sir. We're done here, obviously.

We are indeed done, no-one else has commented on this Napkinwaffe thread, we shall file this under the label of general silliness and move on to actual historical things.

So, who is paying you, "Angry Welshman" who posts from London? MI-5, maybe? Perhaps you're not that far up on the food chain. Foreign and Commonwealth Office, then? Yes, indeed, they still take the Official Secrets Act seriously in the UK.

By "done here" I meant---in case I have to spell it out for you, which I doubt---that I am done with YOU. For the time being I am giving you a backhanded compliment in assuming that you're halfway intelligent, given your apparent ability to put words together in a sentence. But given your abject refusal to give any consideration whatsoever to the many hundreds of original, primary source, contemporary-to-WWII documents and other evidence produced by a longtime senior staff scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Dr. Rider), there are only two possibilities:

1) You are irrationally wedded to the conventional history which dates back to 1947, and you maintain this loyalty despite the fact that the most cursory study of the documentation will demonstrate that said history is either badly incomplete or deliberately misleading (most likely both).

Or....

2) You're being paid by your masters to try and redirect any interested parties from viewing the evidence for themselves and making up their own minds.

Surely you can't expect me or any other thinking person, whether on this site or anywhere else, to swallow whole the notion that a scientist who is good enough to have been on staff for some years at MIT would go out into the public to knowingly perpetrate a scientific and historical fraud...can you? And as for him not being a historian as such, neither was Derek de Solla Price, the Yale University professor whose personal investigation tipped off Robert Wilcox and led to Wilcox's book, Japan's Secret War. So we should ignore de Solla Price, then, too, is that right? As was noted several times in this thread, Wilcox's expose of the WWII Japanese nuclear weapons program is mainstream history now, even though people like you, for whatever reasons, did their worst for decades in an attempt to smear, distort, or marginalize WIlcox's work. And now here you are, doing exactly the same thing with Dr. Rider and his book, all the while screeching irrationally and as loudly as you can that there's no evidence---and all this, in turn, while refusing to examine said evidence nor provide your own "scholarship" as to why the evidence is either fraudulent or otherwise insufficient to advance the thesis I am advancing in this thread. And no, merely trying to handwave it all away as "napkinwaffe" (mere concepts sketched on the back of a napkin) is not a remotely sufficient response to the mountains of archival documentation produced by Dr. Rider's years of investigation.

So, which is it? Are you merely irrational, or are you being paid? I'm betting on the latter.

In any case, this post is for the benefit of anyone who comes to this thread in later years. I already know you're a dead end. The question is why.

a reply to: williamjpellas

*Hysterical laughter*
You think that MI-5 is paying me? Seriously? Seriously???
My god, do you really think that the security services would pay me to point out the many holes in this exercise in silliness that is this abruptly resurrected thread? Who paid you to restart what was dead? Are you being paid by Dr Rider? Are you in the pocket of Big DRACO?
I DEMAND ANSWERS!
*Collapses with laughter again*
Come off it, it's commendable that you are defending your source, but I have severe reservations about said source. There also continues to be the total lack of resources for uranium enrichment as well as no working atomic pile anywhere in Nazi Germany. Your source is all speculation and no proof. All mouth and no trousers in other words.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: williamjpellas

*Hysterical laughter*
You think that MI-5 is paying me? Seriously? Seriously???
My god, do you really think that the security services would pay me to point out the many holes in this exercise in silliness that is this abruptly resurrected thread? Who paid you to restart what was dead? Are you being paid by Dr Rider? Are you in the pocket of Big DRACO?
I DEMAND ANSWERS!
*Collapses with laughter again*
Come off it, it's commendable that you are defending your source, but I have severe reservations about said source. There also continues to be the total lack of resources for uranium enrichment as well as no working atomic pile anywhere in Nazi Germany. Your source is all speculation and no proof. All mouth and no trousers in other words.

Uh huh.

Well then, why don't you READ THE BOOK and cite specific examples which buttress and corroborate your assertions that "there...continues to be the total lack of resources for uranium enrichment as well as no working atomic pile anywhere in Nazi Germany"? Here's a hint: there are around a dozen sites in the territory of the old Third Reich for which evidence exists that reactors were actually built, or at minimum, that an attempt to do was made during the war years. Primary source documents are cited in support of this assertion. But even if all WWII German reactor work was a dead end, they were still heavily invested in electronuclear breeding, which is a perfectly legitimate method for producing fissile material and a probable source of concern for present day governments regarding nuclear weapons proliferation.

For example:

history.stackexchange.com...

I also have a number of NARA (US National Archives and Records Administration, the American version of Kew Gardens) papers courtesy of Forgotten Creators and other sources in which advanced wartime German work on nuclear weapons is discussed quite openly and in considerable detail. Many of these are included in those pesky Quora posts which you seem for some odd reason to want everyone to ignore without so much as a glance at them. Again, most illogical. How can you reasonably dismiss a given thesis without examining it on its own merits or lack thereof? And before you try (again) to dismiss me, Rider, and others as random internet cranks, guess what? I have read the conventional history. I know what Goudsmit, Groves, Pash, and their descendants in academia such as Richard Rhodes, Thomas Powers, and the insufferable John Dower and Gar Alperovitz have to say, and why. I then compared their work with what Rider, Wilcox, Richard Frank, Norman Allen and Thomas Polmar, Rainer Karlsch, Heiko Petermann, Gunther Nagel, Dwight Rider (no relation to Todd) and Thomas Mehner and Edgar Meyer have to say. Have you gone through any similar process?

Again the answer is either a resounding "NO"---in which case why should I or any thinking person give credence to your uninformed assertions---or you DO know and you have an agenda.

So, I'm waiting for specifics from you. Where are they?

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
It falls firmly under the label 'Napkinwaffe'. There's no proof of a single working atomic pile. No uranium enrichment facilities. No proof. Don't cite speculation, cite cold hard proof.

It is simultaneously possible for the German scientific enterprise to have high quality designs for a nuclear weapon without the large and very expensive facilities needed to produce the special nuclear materials in sufficient quantity to manufacture it. The first takes brains and lab experiments which the Germans did have. The second takes enormous amounts of money and resources, plus not getting bombed.

UK scientists knew how the nuclear weapon worked as well as the USA ones in 1945+, but they didn't have the enormous reactors at Hanford, and the large uranium separation plants in Oak Ridge that the USA did.

originally posted by: williamjpellas
a reply to: mbkennel

It's doubtful Churchill even knew of the concept of a nuclear weapon until 1945.

This is completely false. Churchill was well aware of developments in atomic energy from its earliest days, and was kept up to speed on much of the cutting edge research by his friend, Frederick Lindemann, a professor of physics at Oxford.

www.ias.edu...

Would the professor at Oxford be privy specifically to nuclear weapon design as opposed to academic research?

originally posted by: williamjpellas

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
I'm sorry, but if you think that the nation that committed mass-murder on an industrial scale was afraid of world opinion you have another think coming.If Germany had had the bomb Hitler would have used it, especially at the end of the war when Hitler no longer gave a damn about anything at all.
Anyway, this is besides the point. There is still no evidence, at all - other than in conspiracy theories and books based on speculation and hearsay - that the Germans built the Bomb.

Hitler would have, yes.

But there is considerable evidence that other top Nazis had decided some time ago (relative to the spring of 1945) that any nuclear strike they might be able to mount using their emergent weapons would be neither numerous nor powerful enough to reverse the course of the war, and would only serve to seal their fate at the wrong end of a hangman's noose once the Allies won, anyway.

In a speculative alternative history, supposing the Third Reich had not attacked Russia through Poland when it did. They had conquered the rest of Europe and their technology was top rate. They consolidate their gains and buttress themselves against the U.K. Without an Eastern Front, the defense of France looked so strong that Eisenhower called off his plans for an amphibious assault. Germany kept air superiority over the continent, protecting their growing industrial base which was enjoying a 'peacetime dividend' as the UK's attacks proved futile.

The Eastern Front was opened and closed in a week as a surprise bombing raid incinerated Leningrad & Moscow with the German A-bombs in late 1945. With Stalin and much of the Communist Party leadership dead, the USSR collapsed.

The U.K. was given the honor of a peaceful surrender after Churchill was voted out by the fearful population, some of whom eagerly informed on their Jews.

The US and Reich were now in a semi Cold War as they both built up their nuclear arsenals, though a hot submarine war was taking place in the Atlantic. But the V-3, launchable from recently conquered Nazi Iceland asymmetrically threatened Boston & NYC with obliteration, with no US aerial threat to Germany possible after the occupation of the UK.

It got worse.
-------

All in all, the planet is indebted to Hitler's maniacal hate and impatience to preclude that history

a reply to: thumper76

Thank god the Germans didnt win! Got lucky as hell!

a reply to: mbkennel

Fair question. I honestly don't know the answer. To this point in time I have been given to understand that it was a fairly close working relationship between Churchill and Lindemann. Churchill was certainly a major advocate of nuclear power and was very much in favor of both Tube Alloys - the Manhattan Project and also the later development of an independent British nuclear arsenal. He seems to have had second thoughts in the wake of the atomic bombings in WWII and especially after the appearance of the hydrogen bomb.

originally posted by: mbkennel

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
It falls firmly under the label 'Napkinwaffe'. There's no proof of a single working atomic pile. No uranium enrichment facilities. No proof. Don't cite speculation, cite cold hard proof.

It is simultaneously possible for the German scientific enterprise to have high quality designs for a nuclear weapon without the large and very expensive facilities needed to produce the special nuclear materials in sufficient quantity to manufacture it. The first takes brains and lab experiments which the Germans did have. The second takes enormous amounts of money and resources, plus not getting bombed.

UK scientists knew how the nuclear weapon worked as well as the USA ones in 1945+, but they didn't have the enormous reactors at Hanford, and the large uranium separation plants in Oak Ridge that the USA did.

Again, fair points.

However, the German bomb concepts that have come to light thus far were actually at least a full generation (in nuclear weapons terms) ahead of the Allied versions. They utilized the much more efficient boosted fission implosion method of detonation, which meant they not only needed less in the way of fissile material, but would also have produced a considerably greater blast yield if loaded with a full "charge".

Forgotten Creators provides considerable documentation for the existence of:

1) some kind of wartime German "Y plant" (electromagnetic separators)

2) multiple cyclotrons, perhaps dozens of them, along with a corresponding general, overall emphasis on electronuclear breeding of fissile materials

3) at least two (2) reactors, one of which was certainly moderated by heavy water and other probably so, and...

4) at least two (2) ultracentrifuge arrays. While these were probably on the smaller side in terms of raw numbers of machines, it is known that their design, like that of the actual bombs, was highly efficient.

For these and other reasons, some kind of nuclear weapons were definitely within reach for Nazi Germany. The question that researchers in the present day are trying to answer is, How close did the Germans actually get to real world, fully operational nuclear capability?

originally posted by: mbkennel

originally posted by: williamjpellas

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
I'm sorry, but if you think that the nation that committed mass-murder on an industrial scale was afraid of world opinion you have another think coming.If Germany had had the bomb Hitler would have used it, especially at the end of the war when Hitler no longer gave a damn about anything at all.
Anyway, this is besides the point. There is still no evidence, at all - other than in conspiracy theories and books based on speculation and hearsay - that the Germans built the Bomb.

Hitler would have, yes.

But there is considerable evidence that other top Nazis had decided some time ago (relative to the spring of 1945) that any nuclear strike they might be able to mount using their emergent weapons would be neither numerous nor powerful enough to reverse the course of the war, and would only serve to seal their fate at the wrong end of a hangman's noose once the Allies won, anyway.

In a speculative alternative history, supposing the Third Reich had not attacked Russia through Poland when it did. They had conquered the rest of Europe and their technology was top rate. They consolidate their gains and buttress themselves against the U.K. Without an Eastern Front, the defense of France looked so strong that Eisenhower called off his plans for an amphibious assault. Germany kept air superiority over the continent, protecting their growing industrial base which was enjoying a 'peacetime dividend' as the UK's attacks proved futile.

The Eastern Front was opened and closed in a week as a surprise bombing raid incinerated Leningrad & Moscow with the German A-bombs in late 1945. With Stalin and much of the Communist Party leadership dead, the USSR collapsed.

The U.K. was given the honor of a peaceful surrender after Churchill was voted out by the fearful population, some of whom eagerly informed on their Jews.

The US and Reich were now in a semi Cold War as they both built up their nuclear arsenals, though a hot submarine war was taking place in the Atlantic. But the V-3, launchable from recently conquered Nazi Iceland asymmetrically threatened Boston & NYC with obliteration, with no US aerial threat to Germany possible after the occupation of the UK.

It got worse.
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All in all, the planet is indebted to Hitler's maniacal hate and impatience to preclude that history

Definitely a scary scenario, one which I think came much closer to seeing the light of day than the conventional postwar history generally has it. One small quibble: the US was working on the gigantic intercontinental B-36 Peacemaker bomber during WWII and ultimately fielded it in 1949. It was built specifically to enable the USAAF to conduct bombing raids against Germany even if England fell.

www.avgeekery.com...

a reply to: hellobruce

You are wrong as usual.

At Farm Hall, Cambridgeshire, Nazi scientists were recorded in August 1945 discussing their wartime efforts. Karl Wirtz lamented loss of Deuterium on the Tinnso Ferry, Kurt Diebner assured him that he was forewarned of the sabotage effort and that the real consignment reached Germany unmolested six weeks later.


Sinking of the Hydro ferry at Lake Tinnso in Norway, did claim 618kg of Heavy Water (Deuterium)The Germans purposely sent low enriched water on the ferry allowing the attack to succeed, so that the remaining HW could be evacuated safely



Dr Harteck revealed in 1974 that Germany repatriated 7,120kg of heavy water from Norway.

6,200kg was evacuated by road from the sister plant at Saheim. A further 920 kg of heavy water was removed from the Rjukan plant.




The Nazis even removed all remaining Pechkranz electrolysers.

Dr Wilhem Suess and Dr Paul Harteck had further Pechkranz electrolyzers installed at two Montecatini electrolytic plants in Italy,

One near Merano and the other at Cotrone, in the Tyrol.

So you see all the attacks on Heavy water production in Norway were futile.