G Edward Griffin Exposes Conspiracy - Monsanto's Aluminum Resistant Seeds and Geoengineering

reply to post by pianopraze

We've discussed the question of pH levels. I don't refute it, I question it. I'm not a soils scientist but I offered my thoughts about how aluminum oxide may or may not affect it. You seemed to agree to a point. I would like to learn more about it. I would like to know what other factors can account for an increase in pH. I would like to know if pH testing has been done in the area and why, if the "spraying" does increase pH, it is not being seen all over the world.

Please show the actual "high levels" of Aluminum in Arizona and Hawaii. I would like to see the test results as it has already been shown that the makers of the video have a questionable version of "high levels".

Oxisols
Oxisols are only found in Hawaii. These are found at intertropical areas and are rich in aluminum oxide and iron oxide.

www.ehow.com...


I don't know what accounts for "high levels" of aluminum in a little girl's hair. Perhaps it's a metabolic issue. I would like to see test results and comparisons. I would like to see an epidemiological study indicating widespread exposure to "high levels" of aluminum.

Please show evidence of "high levels" of aluminum in regions of tree disease.

See. The whole claim of spraying aluminum falls apart because there is no evidence of an increase in aluminum levels. Aluminum is the second most common compound found in the Earth's crust. It is everywhere and always has been.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by pianopraze

 

We've discussed the question of pH levels. I don't refute it, I question it. I'm not a soils scientist but I offered my thoughts about how aluminum oxide may or may not affect it. You seemed to agree to a point. I would like to learn more about it. I would like to know what other factors can account for an increase in pH. I would like to know if pH testing has been done in the area and why, if the "spraying" does increase pH, it is not being seen all over the world.

Please show the actual "high levels" of Aluminum in Arizona and Hawaii. I would like to see the test results as it has already been shown that the makers of the video have a questionable version of "high levels".

Oxisols
Oxisols are only found in Hawaii. These are found at intertropical areas and are rich in aluminum oxide and iron oxide.

www.ehow.com...


I don't know what accounts for "high levels" of aluminum in a little girl's hair. Perhaps it's a metabolic issue. I would like to see test results and comparisons. I would like to see an epidemiological study indicating widespread exposure to "high levels" of aluminum.

Please show evidence of "high levels" of aluminum in regions of tree disease.

See. The whole claim of spraying aluminum falls apart because there is no evidence of an increase in aluminum levels. Aluminum is the second most common compound found in the Earth's crust. It is everywhere and always has been.

edit on 3/1/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Excellent thought on the oxisols. That will have to be addressed by the movie. I pointed you to the section of the movie above. Don't get lazy on me, I'm spending hours on researching most of my posts as we go along. I pointed out the minute and second of the start of the hawaii segment above. I will have to agree if there is already a propensity for high aluminum from oxisols then there is need of further information form the movie people. The doctor, who lives there, seems to think it is extremely high. This child has presumably lived on an organic farm without long term contamination from other sources. Further tests of the land, and water are called for and hair sample tests of the region would be interesting. But this does not rule out airborne contamination either, but until further info, your point is valid.

The arizona section begins at: minute 37
The tree evidence is in several sections of the movie. Have you not watched it? If your going to have a thread on the movie, it helps to at least have watched the movie first!

reply to post by pianopraze

I did watch it. I saw sick trees. Trees get sick for lots of reasons. Tree diseases can cover wide areas.
forestry.about.com...

I saw that a test was done on the bark of a tree and (gasp) aluminum was found. So were any control tests done? Were unaffected trees tested (I saw some right next to the sick trees)? Were soil levels tested? Were those levels abnormally high (keeping in mind the range of aluminum concentrations found naturally)? Was any testing for "normal" tree disease done? Or did I miss that part of the movie?

The movie is presented a science. It is not science. Like I said, it's slick crap.

A look at journalist Michael Murphy’s research into geo-engineering, and the fact that extremely high levels of aluminum and barium are found in water, snow and soil, in areas shown to have heavy air patterns.

Part 1


Part 2


Part 3

Why is aluminum present in off the scale amounts in the Mt. Shasta area?

When a hydro-geologist was shown the tests, he stated, “unless you live near an Alcoa Aluminum plant, there is no way these types of metals (barium has also been detected) should be showing up in your pond or rainwater samples, in any quantity.” The Pit River sample tested at 4,610,000 ug/L, which is 4,610 times the MCL.
Citizens seeking answers to aluminum contamination concerns

www.mtshastanews.com...

Aluminum and PH -

- When the soil pH is below 5.0, soluble Al is almost certainly a problem.

- When the soil pH is between 5.0 and 5.5, soluble Al likely a small problem

- When the soil pH is between 5.5 and 6.0, soluble Al is not likely to be a significant problem

- When the soil pH is above 6.0, soluble Al is almost certainly not a problem.

- Lime is the solution to excess soluble Al in the topsoil

- Gypsum may be needed to correct excess soluble Al in the subsoil

The genetic modification to withstand Aluminum is probably done to keep an acid tolerant plant
from surviving the low pH but stunting from Aluminum poisoning.

www.spectrumanalytic.com...

Bill HR 875 was introduced by Rosa DeLauro whose husband Stanley Greenburg works for Monsanto.

The Department Of Energy Atmospheric Chemistry Program.
www.atmos.anl.gov...

Much of the science that had been planned for the Atmospheric Chemistry Program (ACP) will, in the future, be conducted under the Department of Energy's Atmospheric Science Program www.asp.bnl.gov.... Beginning in Fiscal Year 2005, research will focus on radiative forcing of climate change by atmospheric aerosols.

Field studies are conducted with aircraft and surface measurements on reaction chemistry, advective influences on the chemical composition of chemistry, and air-surface exchange processes. Modeling efforts address both chemistry and dynamics on regional and global scales.

US Patent 5003186 Stratospheric welsbach seeding for reduction of global warming (spraying with aluminum)

www.scribd.com...

reply to post by burntheships

Strange. The tests shown in the movie have much lower levels.

Here's a follow up from the Mt Shasta News.
New tests find trace or no aluminum in area water
Aluminum:

Water samples were collected April 20 and testing was done by Basic Labs in Redding using method EPA60108 with containers provided by the lab to ensure no contamination. The results are as follows:
• Ream Ave. and W.A. Barr Road pond - Not Detected;
• Shasta Ranch Road pond - 0.097 milligrams per liter;
• Sisson Meadows pond - 0.085 milligrams per liter;
• City Park headwaters - Not detected;

The California Regional Water Quality Control Board also conducted tests on May 4 and 7 that were evaluated by Basic Labs. The results are as follows:
• Ash Creek near McCloud - 0.010 milligrams per liter;
• Mount Shasta area - 0.019 milligrams per liter;
• Castle Lake - 0.022 milligrams per liter.

www.mtshastanews.com...

Yes, aluminum is bad for plants in acid soils. Why is it then, that in the movie, they are complaining about rising pH levels? Why is Monsanto producing aluminum tolerant plants if it is part of a plan which protects existing plants from aluminum poisoning?

Seems the makers of the movie sort of missed that point. Just like they missed the point that the soil samples do not show unusually high levels of aluminum in the soil in the Shasta area.

Phage invited me to join the discussion - i am the chemist from the movie. The Mt. Shasta data that was used was good analytical data with proper quality control. The question of the source of the metals, aluminum, barium and strontium can not be addressed from those samples. There is a significant difference in water vapors from contrails and the clouds from chemtrails. I am a chemist - I will be pleased to address the chemistry questions that are brought up here.

Metals change their coordination sphere at different pH. The pH is a function of the acid/base levels of the environment. Most metals become oxidized as the pH rises - that is the water becomes more basic. Aluminum is definitely more mobile in acids than bases. The compound alumina - Al2O3 is inert to chemical reaction, but has significant bad effects in biological systems because it takes up space and cannot be removed by metabolic processes that require chemical reactions. It deposits where it is and requires physical removal over time.

Rather than attempt to glean all the commentary. please ask the significant chemistry questions again and i will make comment. I am also offering a course on The many facets of water on-line this spring at NWETI.com . I look forward to getting these facts right - and stopping the release of all non-natural materials in the environment.

reply to post by lemmehowdt


Hello, and Welcome to ATS!

I look forward to your comments, thanks for joining in the disucssion.

Were you also contacted by our member Pianopraze?

I was aware that he had made contact with the movie makers, and had invited them
to this thread for discussion.

The Atmoshperic Chemistry Program

Aerosol Experiment in 2001-2002

An advanced aerosol microphysics/chemistry model will be coupled to a three-dimensional tracer transport model to investigate the fate of East Asian particulates in the western Pacific Basin. The model resolves the size and composition of aerosols for a range of types, including internal and external mixtures, and incorporates a comprehensive treatment of aerosol formation processes to determine the contribution of nucleation from pollutant vapors. The model is being used to carry out simulations of the temporal and spatial distributions of particle types, sizes and compositions over eastern Asia and western Pacific Ocean.

www.atmos.anl.gov...

www.atmos.anl.gov...

Conclusion and Future work

• We have carried out a series of detailed regional aerosol simulations in Southern California to Detailed
comparisons has been made between model predictions and field measurements for a wide
range of parameters and substances. In general, calculations compare favorably with
observations.
• The deposition of species on coarse particles mainly impacts urban source regions and
adjacent areas. Trace components on fine particles are deposited over regional scales through
long-range transport. The results suggest that routine air quality measurements of PM10 and
PM2.5 are inadequate to characterize local to urban scale trace metal deposition rates.
• Most of emissions in the LA basin are found to disperse outside of the region. They can be
contained within the boundary layer and move as a series of plumes first through mountain
passes and then slowly across the arid southwestern United States; or be injected into the free
troposphere and carried by jets and fronts over continental to global scales.
• Over Eastern Asia/Western Pacific, the model has successfully simulated the dust dispersion
from the April 1998 dust storm. The simulated dust patterns are consistent with satellite
observations.
• We will collect aerosol sources data to drive the coupled MM5/SMOG model, and compare
the predictions against available field observations in the region. These comparisons will
serve to define the overall fidelity of the model and will allow a rough calibration of the
sources. After that we will perform fully coupled 3-D simulations of aerosol behavior in the
areas

www.atmos.anl.gov...

www.atmos.anl.gov...

The DOE Research Aircraft Facility

The Atmospheric Chemistry Program is supported by the DOE Research Aircraft Facility at the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL), which is dedicated to the fulfillment of DOE and national goals related to understanding atmospheric processes as they relate to the DOE's environmental missions and the global environment. Central to this facility is an advanced sampling platform, the PNNL Grumman Gulfstream I (G-1), and its flight crew, technical and engineering support staff, and state-of-the-art instrumentation.

www.atmos.anl.gov...
www.atmos.anl.gov...

reply to post by burntheships


I do not understand how you can read those sources, to include the paragraphs you snipped and posted, and not realize what they are saying??

Here, from just the first link, the first page, in the opening description:

An advanced aerosol microphysics/chemistry model will be coupled to a three-dimensional tracer transport model to investigate the fate of East Asian particulates in the western Pacific Basin.

Read that carefully.

Is it saying that they are actively transporting "East Asian dust" particulates to the western Pacific Basin, and then releasing them to study their behavior??

OR, are they (as is the case) examining the naturally-occurring process in the atmosphere that can deliver particulates from East Asia, all the way across the Pacific Ocean??

Do you recognize the MAJOR difference, there?

reply to post by lemmehowdt

Thank you for joining us. But it was not I who invited you.

I understand that there are problems for plants with aluminum in acid soils. My questions are these:

In your opinion, do the soils tests shown in the movie demonstrate unusually high levels of aluminum? If so could you comment on this post:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Are you aware of any studies which demonstrate a widespread increase in soil pH levels?

In the movie it is implied that the alleged rise in pH is due to aluminum and other metals being added to the environment. As I understand it, oxides of aluminum are insoluble in water (both basic and acidic forms), or exhibit such low levels of solubility that they may be considered so. If this is the case, is it reasonable to conclude, in light of the fact that aluminum levels in the soils are not particularly high, that the addition of aluminum (or other metals) is responsible for the large increase in soil pH levels discussed in the movie?

Have you seen any evidence that aluminum (or other metal) levels have increased in Mt. Shasta area soils over the past 20 years?

Originally posted by lemmehowdt
Phage invited me to join the discussion - i am the chemist from the movie. The Mt. Shasta data that was used was good analytical data with proper quality control. The question of the source of the metals, aluminum, barium and strontium can not be addressed from those samples. There is a significant difference in water vapors from contrails and the clouds from chemtrails. I am a chemist - I will be pleased to address the chemistry questions that are brought up here.

Metals change their coordination sphere at different pH. The pH is a function of the acid/base levels of the environment. Most metals become oxidized as the pH rises - that is the water becomes more basic. Aluminum is definitely more mobile in acids than bases. The compound alumina - Al2O3 is inert to chemical reaction, but has significant bad effects in biological systems because it takes up space and cannot be removed by metabolic processes that require chemical reactions. It deposits where it is and requires physical removal over time.

Rather than attempt to glean all the commentary. please ask the significant chemistry questions again and i will make comment. I am also offering a course on The many facets of water on-line this spring at NWETI.com . I look forward to getting these facts right - and stopping the release of all non-natural materials in the environment.

Welcome Dr,

I am the one who invite you in

I look forward to hearing your replies.

Thank you so much for taking the time to come here and address ATS.
Richard,
pianopraze

Sorry Richard, my bad. I cannot send a reply to you because i have less than 20 posts. I would like a new line - the area here has me totally confused about how to respond. Not like any chat i have been to before. I would like to respond, but i don't get how this thing works - there seem to be too many input streams that refer back to themselves, so i keep reading the same thing over and over. Yuk.

reply to post by lemmehowdt


Dr,

Well from the looks of things, we need to get you to 20 posts then.

That could be done here in this thread.

Perhaps we could do an initial series of questions here, and then proceed to a new topic?

Edit to add - The new thread by Pianopraze is up!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by lemmehowdt

That's fine Dr. Here is a new thread for you to reply in. I have put your credentials.

Click on this link and please feel free to discuss in this new thread: New ATS thread

Phage - there is most definitely a difference between soil and water. I doubt that the aluminum could be the driver of the pH, even at 3.8%. Can you give me a summary of the facts as you know them and the issues that are in question. I appreciate the fact that everybody here is curious and that we all want to get a handle on what is going on.
Burnt the ships - thank you, yes it was pianopraze and not phage that made the contactI am not familiar with the aerosol spraying programs that are legit, and the geo-engineering spraying doesn't hold weight with the scientific evidence that i have seen. If you point me to the data, i'll read it and then make comment specifically.

Please do not take my word as gospel unless it fits your own world view. The science establishment is very broken, as we can see from other lines of discussion at this site. My scientific experiences in the working world have been unethical from lots of directions. I do not trust the science establishment to put out truth - they are very self-serving in the profit motive sense. Good deep conversation should provide all of us with some enlightenment.

I should be good at using the site in a day or two. My computer is over 2 years old, so bells and whistles slow me down considerably. Looking forward to the whole debate.

reply to post by lemmehowdt


Dr. Please click this link and reply in this new thread. Please click here and respond here.

reply to post by lemmehowdt


Dr. Thyme,

Thank you again!

I also say thanks to Richard -ATS member Pianopraze for his work in reaching you!
I am very much looking forward to the discussion in the new thread Richard has created
in welcoming you!

Welcome to ATS Dr Thyme!

I have some documents I will send to you via u2u messages.

reply to post by lemmehowdt

Thank you sir for taking the time to contribute to our search for the truth on the chemtrail issue.
If there are sources on the web that you are aware of that you believe provide useful information, I believe many here would be interested in reviewing those sites. By the same token, sites that muddy the water and provide no useful purpose, again in YOUR view, we would be interested in that information as well.
Again, thank you for participating. Looking forward to it!