I have come to embrace Socialism!

reply to post by infinite


Did you even read what I wrote? I said his PHILOSOPHY. Not his religious preachings. Jesus's philosophy is much closer to anarchism than anything else. If we would like to have a political ideology based on Jesus's teachings it would be christian anarchism. No authority but God. So if the OP wants to find an ideology that is close to the teachings of Jesus it would be christian anarchism. Just check wiki for "Christian Anarchism".

Thomas Jefferson for example focused on the philosophical message rather than the religious preachings. Ever heard of the Jefferson Bible? Jefferson took out all Jesus's divine stuff and focused on the philosophy.

BTW I am not a socialist or leftist in any way for that matter.

And yes Marx would be apposed to Jesus's philosophy. But not mainly because of his opposition to religion. Partly because of it but not mainly. I think it's more the pacifist part he would be opposed to. Marx was more like a hardcore revolutionary. So he would most likely have promoted armed struggle.

And Ayn Rand wasn't a libetarian. She had her own views wich are called Objectivism. That is more a philosphy that even goes into peoples romantic relationships. It's very close to libertarianism or even more to anarcho capitalism. But it differs on some key issues.

Originally posted by JudgedCover
The real truth is that any system is completely dependent on just that...people. All systems of government throughout human history have been subject to the character of it's leaders.

A nation and it's people can thrive under a monarchy...when that monarch is a benevolent, righteous and wise ruler.

When the ruling order of any nation becomes predominantly comprised of self-serving, corrupt, greedy and powerlustful people then it is doomed to fail.

I disagree that it is not dependent on the system but soley on the human.

History has proven that some sytems of society emphasize humanities greed and hate (such as socialism, which actively tells people to bring down the rich "oppressors") and some emphasize humanities goodness and creativity (such as capitalism which actively tells people to be productive).

Originally posted by SeventhSeal

Actually, Jesus was pretty anti Rich.

Jesus was anti-greed not anti-rich. Socialists tend to mistaken rich with greedy. They cant imagine someone becoming rich in order to help their family and community or for love to productivity.

Originally posted by witness63
I decided that I was a democratic socialist (or social democrat) in the Western European sense

Equating these two is a popular inaccuracy. Social Dremocracy in Europe is nothing like Socialism. European societies are actually quite Capitalistic - thats why they are thriving. Social Democrats are left-center. European Conservatives are normally RIght-Center.

I knew for a long time that American-style capitalism would collpase and said so, and I saw it happen over the past few years, with all the big capitalists running to Washington begging for a bailout.

After that, who can still claim with a straight face that capitalism is not a failure?

Capitalist countries such as USA and those in Western Europe have given us more wealth, health and progress than any other system thus far. Socialist countries have given us Genocide and Poverty. These are historcial facts. And yet socialists call themselves "progressive".

reply to post by Skyfloating


That is the problem with socialism and Marx, neither understand aspiration and capitalism can achieve social mobility.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

"Communism looks great on paper"

This is what people keep saying but its not true. Its a cop-out used by neo-marxists to explain why socialism has failed but will succeed in some future.

This quote could be used for any form of govt or economic system.

Whether you are aware of it or not, this is subtle neo-marxist propaganda and also not true. Historically some systems have proven to lead to more wealth, health and happiness overall. Capitalism is one of them.

They all look great on paper but once you implement them, there are just too many variables that cannot be accounted for. Namely the greed, ignorance, arrogance and stupidity of humanity.

Capitalists do not view humankind primarily as stupid and greedy but as kind and creative. It was Marx and his predecessors who kept going on about how "stupid" humanity is.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
Almost no one will be a millionaire. This is one of the flaws of capitalism.

Reading through this thread I feel like Ive entered some Soviet Indoctrination Camp.

The aim of Capitalism is not to become a Millionaire but to produce goods and value, to be productive, to generate income, to invest, to generate return on investment, so that oneself and others can live fairly peaceful lives and take care of more important matters. I am a succesful Capitalist because I make a living for myself and many others.

If you dont HAVE anything you CANT HELP.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
In your scenario, wouldnt socialism be, everyone on the island helping to build the boat and everyone having an opportunity to use it?

In Capitalism, everyone is a unique individual who does what he does best. In collectivist tribalism (Communism), nobody has unique skills. So instead of the person building the boat who can best build boats, everybody builds a boat. Everybody governs. Everybody makes ice-cream. In Capitalism, the best ice-cream-maker makes ice-cream, leaving the governing up to those who know about governing.

Thats why Capitalist societies progress so quickly.

Originally posted by witness63
Since socialism has almost always been a movement of the working class, small farmers and peasants, it never promised that all of them would be millionaires. It promised that it would smash the ruling elites that were oppressing them politically and economically, create a more just society in which the health, education, housing and working conditions of the common people would be improved. This cannot happen when all the wealth of society is in the hands of an elite or aristocracy.

If I make a boat that works, that does not mean I am oppressing people who cant make a boat. If you want to use the boat I made, what are you going to give me in return? I invested 30 hours building this boat and you want to take it away from me. So who is the Oppressor?

Im willing to donate it to the villate, but at least let me take one ride in it, OK? Its not me that is greedy here.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Get rich quick schemes in the capitalist business world, (buyouts, IPOs, conglomerates, acquisitions, mergers, and the stock market), do not actually work. Remaining solvent does not actually exist within false economics capitalism.

Profit existing in the capitalist business world, or millionaires existing within capitalism, is pathological deception committed by the 21 organizations spying on the population with plain clothes agents, (with covert fake names and fake backgrounds).

Actual economics is the persons paying the monthly business loan payments of companies voting at work in order to control the property they are paying for.

Capitalism is the psychology of imaginary parents, false economics, and the criminal deception of employees that are paying the bills (including the stocks and bonds, or shares) of companies.

Anti-democracy republicanism is the psychology of imaginary parents and false government.

Originally posted by Ignorance_Defier
A couple things: the mod who commented naming the dictators from the authoritarian/communist governments is completely misinformed. Communism and Socialism are COMPLETELY different things.
If they were the same thing the mod would still be using logical fallacy called straw-man.

The left wing hailed these people as socialists and leftists when they came to power. After seeing the devastation socialism caused (usually visible after only 5-10 years), they claimed "Ah, its not socialism afterall"

But many socialists still actively endorse systems of Tyranny as this mere example clearly shows.

Originally posted by Ignorance_Defier
Capitalism creates a materialistc view of the world.

Actually it was Marx who proposed dialectical materialism and the abolishment of Religion and Spirituality. It was Marxism that spawned Atheism. Capitalism, on the other hand, is based on older concepts of creative life force and humans ability to be more than a mere chunk of meat in the collective.

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
reply to post by MurderCityDevil

 

Thanks! I was thinking I was the only Christian Socialist on here. My cousin is a huge fan of politics and he has countless books on various political subjects. Christian Anarchism and Christian Socialism make more sense then what the Right spew out their mouths.

Most of you really have no idea of what you are talking about... Too many young people just jump in the "socialism" bandwagon without realising what you, and EVERY ONE ELSE has to give up... I find it ironic that the mayority of the people who join the "socialist ranks" have a better life under capitalism than anyone who has really experienced the goals of socialism...

socialism is a consolidation of power, and despite the dellusional claims that "the people are in power" the truth, and history itself have shown that all power is consolidated to a few individuals WHO CLAIM to represent the people but never do...

socialism and communism does not exist to help the people, they exist to keep the party, and the ideology alive at all costs, including killing those who oppose socialism/communism, and all those who dare to believe in any sort of spiritualism...

BTW a Christian socialist is one of biggest oxymorons I have read about.. socialism is about consolidating all power and taking the power from the people, meanwhile Jesus taught people to live contrary to socialist ideals.

The idea of eugenics came from SOCIALISTS, and every left winger in power is a proponent of depopulation which is the same as eugenics. The right has also been infiltrated by many people who for most of their lives were part of the left, and they changed sides for the most part to infiltrate progressive/liberal ideas into the Republican camp.

The whole idea of neoconservative is a socialist idea, as Ron Paul's site itself states...

Real Republicans, take note: There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between “Conservative Republican Values” and “Neo-Conservative Values.”

Conservative Republicans: STRONGLY favor protecting our civil liberties - Truly American
Neo-Conservatives: See our civil liberties as an unnecessary restriction on government power.

Conservative Republicans: STRONGLY favor a smaller, less intrusive government- Truly American
Neo-Conservatives: Are Willing to spend money (and expand government reach) without restraint, provided it helps them further their agenda.

Conservative Republicans: STRONGLY favor Fiscal Responsibility and reducing taxes - GOOD FOR AMERICA
Neo-Conservatives: Fool the public into thinking a “tax cut” (Paid for with PRINTED MONEY) is actually beneficial, hiding the fact that it amounts to little more than a loan that the taxpayer (or their children) will have to repay WITH INTEREST.

www.ronpaulwarroom.com...


Young people, and many others around the world who have had a much better life than anyone living under the yoke of socialism/communism have fallen to the trap and indoctrination that has kept socialism/communism alive.

You people can't even understand the symbols of socialism/communism. One of the many socialist symbols is a clenched red fist, and that is what socialism and communism are, systems to control the people with a red clenched fist, and too many naive people have embraced this ideology when the end goal is clear to anyone who has some sense left in them.

BTW, if you are an American, you better start getting acquainted with the Constitution of the U.S., because it clearly states what form of government should be guaranteed to every state...

U.S. Constitution - Article 4 Section 4

Article 4 - The States
Section 4 - Republican Government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

www.usconstitution.net...

The rich socialist elites are counting on the ignorance of the mayority of the people who embrace socialism/communism, they are counting on every one of you being completely ignorant of history, and the oppression people have gone through when socialism and communism have been embraced. The socialist rich elites are counting on those ignorant people who once again will willingly give away their rights, and the rights of every other person for what they claim is "the good of all"...

BTW, Jesus WAS NOT a socialist... he himself said he didn't come to create or destroy any government. He did not endorse "to take away individual rights for the good of all"...

Too many naive people think that being generous and compassionate towards other people is synonymous only of socialism, or even communism, and this is far from the truth... MANY people who are generous, and compassionate ARE NOT SOCIALISTS OR COMMUNISTS...

socialism seeks to consolidate all power. The Feds is a socialist idea, as well as the IRS as it exists today, and these wee ideas which were signed into law by a PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT/SOCIALIST U.S. President known as Woodrow Wilson, yet you people want for the rich socialist elites to gain and consolidate even more power?... You are all falling for their trap.

Originally posted by TheOracle
And Socialism is not about giving up your luxuries, it is about providing, at least, a minimum to the people in need (food, water, healthcare, shelter).

And the means to do so comes from where?

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
reply to post by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet

 

There is not a right economic system of govt.

Hmmmm there is no such thing as an 'economic system of government'.

The economy is the economy, government is government. There are systems of government, and economic systems.

You can have any economic system without government, capitalist or socialist, just as any economic system can be totalitarian. Capitalist control of the economy only promises economic freedom for those that 'win', it does not and can not guarantee personal liberty. This is why TPTB do not want you to realise that those countries labeled 'communist', or 'socialist', are just as capitalist as the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Wally Hope
This is why TPTB do not want you to realise that those countries labeled 'communist', or 'socialist', are just as capitalist as the rest of the world.

That is nonsense, and it shows your poor understanding of what happens in socialist/communist countries...

Most people in socialist/communist countries cannot have their own businesses, more so when the STATE/PARTY owns all infraestructure...how can a socialist/communist country be capitalist?... The ELITES do use capitalism, but the country is not capitalist because the people are not allowed to use, or be capitalists...

Life is tough, too many people around the world think life should be easy...well it isn't... Try living in the woods for a while and see how fair life is...

Capitalism allows for peple to exchange their products, or services to help each other. Capitalism has been used for millenia, even many ancient tribes used to trade with other tribes, for products the other tribe did not have, and that is capitalism...

BTW, are you talking from experience as to what happens in socialist/communist countries?...

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Ignorance_Defier
A couple things: the mod who commented naming the dictators from the authoritarian/communist governments is completely misinformed. Communism and Socialism are COMPLETELY different things.
If they were the same thing the mod would still be using logical fallacy called straw-man.

The left wing hailed these people as socialists and leftists when they came to power. After seeing the devastation socialism caused (usually visible after only 5-10 years), they claimed "Ah, its not socialism afterall"

But many socialists still actively endorse systems of Tyranny as this mere example clearly shows.

I am not familiar with Davis but I will read that.

As for Stalin; I don't think there is any evidence that he killed anyone.

If you are talking about when the 2-10 million deaths in Ukraine there is more evidence than it was caused by famine than the so called "secret police".

In my opinion, the alleged "genocide" was no more than capitalistic and right winged propaganda to demonize the USSR.

reply to post by Ignorance_Defier


There is no evidence at all that Stalin killed anyone? Are you quite sure about that?

Would you also say there is no evidence that the famine had anything to do with Stalins policies?

As for Socialism having nothing to do with Communism: Wasnt it Marx who said that Socialism is a stepping stone on the way to Communism?

As for "right wing propaganda demonizing the USSR" - you think the squalor, lack of hot water, lack of free press, lack of free education, lack of money, lack of goods, lack of food....DIDNT EXIST?

Just inquiring.

Sincerely,

Skyfloating

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
Thanks for the list. But I chose to embrace Socialism by facts then trying to attack a person using images of death. Here's a great article of the history of socialism and the many people who influenced the thought of socialism.
History of Socialism

Which facts are you talking about?... the fact that individualism, hence civil liberties are trampled by socialism/communism in the disguise to "save mankind" or "for the good of all"?...

The fact that in socialism/communism these doctrines are forced and indoctrinated instead of allowing people to decide?...

Look at what "the socialist ideals" which have been implemented in the U.S. have done... From the Feds, the IRS... the fact that the government is meddling with how children must be raised and which has broken many homes?...

Are those the "facts of socialism" you are talking about?...

Originally posted by Ignorance_Defier
....
In my opinion, the alleged "genocide" was no more than capitalistic and right winged propaganda to demonize the USSR.

Well, your so called opinion is wrong...

The genocide caused by Stalin and many other socialist/communists has been gathered from those MILLIONS who experienced the "socialist/communist" ideas you want people to embrace...

But of course, to a leftwinger living in a capitalist country, and who has never seen, or experienced what millions of people experienced under Stalin and other socialists/communists have to "like always" claim that "it was all made up by the right"...

Your kind of people are the same ones who claim the millions of survivors who have told the truth about your so wonderful socialist/communist ideas "are all paid rightwing CIA agents"...

Your kind can't accept facts, you rather believe the lies told by the FEW elites and their puppets who wrote books to brainwash once again naive people like yourself than believing the MILLIONS of people who have survived those doctrines you want people to embrace again...