American Soldiers having fun Killing Civilians in Iraq

Originally posted by LadySkadi
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Never explain. Your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe it anyway.
~Elbert Hubbard, A Thousand and One Epigrams, 1911

Just seems like the quote fits here...

Oozy's not my enemy... I think the l'il cuss is growing quite fond of me!

reply to post by nenothtu


Lol - I interpreted that line a bit less literal - beautiful thing about quotes, they don't have to speak to one specific. Of course, no one is an "enemy" here (one would hope) but it does speak to "beating a dead horse" now and again.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by jambatrumpet
Are you saying that a hundred thousand civilian deaths comitted by a foreign army occupying a country based on fictional intelligence information, are simply casualties of war?

Well which is it?

"Over a million or a hundred thousand"?

I really wish people would get their rhetoric straight.

"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please" Mark Twain

edit on 27-9-2010 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

Why don't you answer the questions, instead of cherry picking my post?

Since you conveniently neglected to quote the question, and simply pick out something you could make an irrelevant statement towards, I will repost it.

Are you saying that a hundred thousand civilian deaths committed by a foreign army occupying a country based on fictional intelligence information, are simply casualties of war?

Is your argument that because there is a discrepancy between the number of innocent men, women, and children murdered, that these deaths are somehow justified?

Please answer the questions.

reply to post by jambatrumpet


Already been answered here.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Thepreye

 

It's very simple really.

He quoted a bogus number then tried to turn it around when he realized it was bogus to where I am supposed to justify the numbers which now he uses that are considerably lower than he first stated.

He still has left out the reference I pointed out about how the majority of those killings were done by Iraqi on Iraqi Sectarian violence again which he and many others here simply and conveniently leave out and over look.

Let him/her answer for their bogus claims and rhetoric first.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Thepreye

 

He still has left out the reference I pointed out about how the majority of those killings were done by Iraqi on Iraqi Sectarian violence again which he and many others here simply and conveniently leave out and over look.

Let him/her answer for their bogus claims and rhetoric first.

Can you provide the source for the claim that the majority of civilian deaths were by sectarian violence?

Please answer this question, which is irrelevant to your claims.

Is your argument that because there is a discrepancy between the number of innocent men, women, and children murdered, that these deaths are somehow justified?

reply to post by nenothtu


The point is, you will never admit they were civilians, and will always defend the US forces because they have installed this bias/bios on your head that they can't do no wrong, and yet it has been proven that US forces killed innocent people for sport.

I'm surprised you don't defend the murderers in Afghanistan who collected their victims body parts.

Counter propaganda with propaganda, it is all the same.. Whether this, or that, whether terrorists or American soldiers you must compare and contrast, because much of the world regards the US as the biggest supporter of terrorism, and regards US army as terrorists to some, and heroes to some, just like those fighting Americans are regarded heroes to some and terrorists to some.

Both videos are clear evidence of that terrorism, you can deny it all you want, I'll never support the killings of innocent, if it is Taliban, US, Massoudis, or Al-Qaeda. It is the US, just like Taliban, just like Al-Qaeda which has the ideology of collateral Damage, let's not forget the US murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Japan, because they had that ideology, and it is clear that they still have that same ideology which Al-Qaeda has.

In regards to the village:

Witnesses and survivors say U.S. warplanes dropped more than 25 bombs in four passes over the village on Saturday. One resident, Kamal Huddin, said 155 of the 300 residents were killed.

"We were farmers. We were poor people. And we didn't have any contact with any organizations,'' Huddin said. His dust-covered face was streaked with tears as he dug out his few remaining possessions - a few clothes and a wooden plow.

In Washington, Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Stufflebeem told reporters he had seen no evidence to support reports of U.S. bombs striking civilian villages in the area.

www.rawa.org...
The highlight is the usual denial of such murders:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f557969de708.jpg[/atsimg]


Compare, it will help you realize.

In regards to Kohistan, it is in Kapisa province.

Does my mom knows I support the enemies of Massoud? There is a huge difference between support and compare for realization. I have never supported the Taliban, I have always claimed that the Taliban and US are no different. Afghanistan under the Taliban had their goods and bads, Afghanistan under the US has its goods and bads. No one in Afghanistan, nor around the world would deny that, not even my mom. Do you think mom doesn't know about the corruption? The drugs?



More info in regards to bombings, ofcourse the media always has excuses for American murder of innocent people:

Thursday, 7 May 2009SHARE PRINTEMAILTEXT SIZE NORMALLARGEEXTRA LARGE
AP
Afghan villagers sift through the rubble of destroyed houses after the coalition air strikes in the Bala Baluk district of Farah province, Afghanistan

ENLARGE
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A misdirected US air strike has killed as many as 120 Afghans, including dozens of women and children. The attack is the deadliest such bombing involving civilian casualties so far in the eight years since the US-led invasion of Afghanistan.

www.independent.co.uk...

Originally posted by Yissachar1
The Taliban ARE civillians.. They wear civvy clothes, have civvy lives, but on a weekend like to dust off an old AK 47 then go shoot some westerners. Some even like to make bombs and go plant them, they make it a family thing and bring there kids in.. Once they have done their deed they put their civvy hats on again, melting back into the population.. You see ?

They ARE civillians

Can you now see how difficult it is to fight them?

We could make it worse could we not? Just kill them all and let God sort them out. But we dont.

Get over yourself and off your high horse son

Your moronic, ill informed, bigotry disguised as rants are getting old

edit on 26-9-2010 by Yissachar1 because: (no reason given)

I believe you are on the high horse. Keep up praising murderers of civilians, on the news today it had the story of the 5 US soldiers who randomly murdered civilians in Afghanistan with grenades and kept body parts as souvenirs. Wonderful, defend that, I'm sure you will.

Your lack of compassion for the fellow human disgusts me.

You only have to look at wikileaks to see how ILL INFORMED you are.

Originally posted by Logarock
Do these death figures factor in all the dead from Sadams mass graves that we dug up over there. It was sad to see loved ones identifying the bodies of these that had been under ground for about 10 years. And how about all the mass killing durring the war between local groups? Or vest and car bombers?

You are forgetting that the US Government placed Saddam in power, and sustained him...

This support included several billion dollars worth of economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran.

en.wikipedia.org...

And are you forgetting that the poison used by him upon his own people was also supplied by us?
You can read about it here: How he US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons
www.greenleft.org.au...

reply to post by poet1b


western society is against acts of terrorism, ie woman blowing themselves up or men for that matter, and yes it is a crime that is despicable in every manner no matter where it is comited. however that does not excuse any soldier from any nation killing civilians on purpose, but because they do, have, or appear they are, it makes them the same, they are no better therefore cannot preach morels when they are going against those morels themselves.

also i really do not get the logic of some people in this thread that think because saddam or militant groups blow up iraqi people then its o.k. for the u.s. or any country to do so to. seems to me the iraqi people get the short end of the stick in both cases, so iraqi people are o.k. to blow away for no reason because saddam did it? or because a car bomb killed some which western society and its citizens are against on a daily basis and try to fight?

but then we find western forces(not all) are commiting the same acts too. if one is wrong then so is the other, there is no excusing it, no matter how much people really like to.

edit for spelling

reply to post by jambatrumpet

Is your argument that because there is a discrepancy between the number of innocent men, women, and children murdered, that these deaths are somehow justified?

There is no discrepancy there never was!
You quoted bogus numbers then tried to hide your mistake. It never was anywhere near a million.

Do I think they are Justified.
Yes I do, in the long run the Iraqi's will be a hell of a lot better off without Saddam. Now if they can stop blowing themselves up over religious differences then maybe they have a chance.



Fair enough?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Do I think they are Justified.
Yes I do, in the long run the Iraqi's will be a hell of a lot better off without Saddam. Now if they can stop blowing themselves up over religious differences then maybe they have a chance.



Fair enough?

Innocent people dying is justified because it makes them better off?

Just curious but can you provide just one, JUST ONE, statement from one dead Iraqi civillian expressing their gratitude for the US saving them from Saddam? Just one.

reply to post by SLAYER69


how can they be better of without saddam if your justifying killing innocent people? that was the reason for overthrowing him? for killing innocent people. he was condemed for it, but now we have people saying it is o.k., why, because the video shows americans?

if you think they should not be killing each other to stand a chance then what makes you think other forces targeting innocent civilians is going to make things better?

reply to post by SLAYER69


I am also curious how they are better off without Saddam, THANKS TO THE US!

Isn't that a bit like giving someone poison and then expecting gratitude for giving them the antidote?

Originally posted by jambatrumpet

You are forgetting that the US Government placed Saddam in power, and sustained him...

More ignorant BS being spewed as facts.

Yes we supported him during the Cold War. The Soviets and Red China backed North Korea and we had Saddam. The US were not entirely sure what the Soviets intentions were in Afghanistan so we backed our horse. But we did not put him in power. We took care of our guy. Saddam is gone. So now the Soviet Union is gone Red China is capitalists Yet North Korea still stands and is now a Nuclear armed Outcast.

Read about Saddam's rise to power
Saddam Hussein
Yeah it's Wiki. I kept it simple for you so you can learn

Enjoy.

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by nenothtu

 

The point is, you will never admit they were civilians, and will always defend the US forces because they have installed this bias/bios on your head that they can't do no wrong, and yet it has been proven that US forces killed innocent people for sport.

1) No, I don't CARE if they appeared to be civilians. I've been around enough to know that folks who will shoot at you frequently don't wear uniforms. Appearances mean nothing to me.

2) I'm not defending anyone, because they don't stand in need of defense.

3) The "bias/BIOS" in my head isn't the one normally installed in US soldiers. You seem to have mistaken me for one who gives a damn about the Laws of Land Warfare. I assure you, I don't. Back when I involved myself in the problems of others, I was of a peculiar class of non-person who was subject to summary execution if captured on a battlefield. Since the LoLW didn't afford ME any protections at all, I didn't pay it much mind. In that, I seem to have something in common with your AQ and Taliban brethren.

The average US soldier, on the other hand, has the LoLW drummed into his head from day 1, and they are VERY loathe to break it, as it could mean a long stint in Leavenworth. Further, the Officer class is pretty finicky about such things, too, because they don't want those black marks on the record they leave for posterity. Therefore, when a breach comes to their attention, they jump on it like a duck on a junebug, and generally prosecute to the max. That's another reason I call BS on this video. Generals know how to watch YouTube, too, and if there were any misconduct here, these gents would be making little rocks out of big ones right about now.

Yes, some soldiers will "do wrong". I can name a couple who did, and were left where they lay, but I won't. You just never know who's reading. Just because a few do, however, doesn't indict ALL soldiers, by any means.

4) No where has "it has been proven that US forces killed innocent people for sport.". Nowhere. One doesn't have to go to the trouble of going half way around the world for a bit of sport killing.

I'm surprised you don't defend the murderers in Afghanistan who collected their victims body parts.

Which "murderers" would that be? I might defend them. Remember, I come from a long line of folks who thought it was all the rage to take scalps and such.

Both videos are clear evidence of that terrorism, you can deny it all you want, I'll never support the killings of innocent, if it is Taliban, US, Massoudis, or Al-Qaeda. It is the US, just like Taliban, just like Al-Qaeda which has the ideology of collateral Damage, let's not forget the US murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Japan, because they had that ideology, and it is clear that they still have that same ideology which Al-Qaeda has.

Nope, no "clear evidence" there, other than the clear evidence of trying to produce propaganda out of material wholly unsuited to it. If you truly believe that the US has the "same ideology"as al-Qaida does, I'm curious as to why it was al-Qaida you picked to support. If you truly believed that, one would be as bad as the other, so why support either?

Regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki, yeah, considering the results produced, and given the same circumstances again, I'd flash 'em all over. You'll not find me condemning it any more than the fire bombing of Dresden - which event killed far more people, with fewer results, but somehow it still gets left behind in these discussions. I reckon since it wasn't "nukulur", you folks don't think THEIR dearths were all that important.

In regards to the village:

Witnesses and survivors say U.S. warplanes dropped more than 25 bombs in four passes over the village on Saturday. One resident, Kamal Huddin, said 155 of the 300 residents were killed.

"We were farmers. We were poor people. And we didn't have any contact with any organizations,'' Huddin said. His dust-covered face was streaked with tears as he dug out his few remaining possessions - a few clothes and a wooden plow.

In Washington, Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Stufflebeem told reporters he had seen no evidence to support reports of U.S. bombs striking civilian villages in the area.

www.rawa.org...
The highlight is the usual denial of such murders:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f557969de708.jpg[/atsimg]

Only 155 out of 300? That's the whole village, just half of 'em? If that's the case, and they were purposely targeted, then someone needs to have a word with our bomb manufacturers and the bombardiers, since they clearly went asleep at the wheel. With all this US power, you'd think they could have completely levelled the village if that was their intent.

Hmmm... maybe that WASN'T their intent...

In regards to Kohistan, it is in Kapisa province.

My mistake, then. Kohistan is considered here to be a wider, not well-defined area. I didn't realize you were talking about a specific district.

Does my mom knows I support the enemies of Massoud? There is a huge difference between support and compare for realization. I have never supported the Taliban, I have always claimed that the Taliban and US are no different. Afghanistan under the Taliban had their goods and bads, Afghanistan under the US has its goods and bads. No one in Afghanistan, nor around the world would deny that, not even my mom. Do you think mom doesn't know about the corruption? The drugs?

Never supported the Taliban? What was all that talk about how they are "freedom fighters" and US troops are "terrorists" then? At some points, you've even suggested that the Taliban is just the modern incarnation of the old anti-Soviet Mujahideen (which I'm sure didn't make some of your family very happy if they don't support the Taliban - and you know just what I mean, eh?).

You see, I see a difference between the Taliban and the US (especially in their goals), and I see a BIG difference between the Taliban and the old muj (their goals were different, too). To compare the Taliban to the muj just pisses me off (good hit there, Oozy!) because to my mind it thoroughly dishonors and desecrates the memories of some fine gents, now dead, and othr fine gents, now maimed and ruined for life, all of whom got that way in a noble cause - NOT trying to subjugate and destroy their own people.

Originally posted by Curiousisall
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I am also curious.

Stop trying to sound and act so innocent! Anybody who drives a car or uses Fuel driven public transportation or flies in a jet airliner etc, is just as guilty as the Soldier on the ground.

The only difference is that the Soldiers have the balls to pull the trigger.

reply to post by SLAYER69




So that would be a big fat 'NO I CANNOT FIND ANY LETTERS OF THANKS TO PROVE THE BS PROPAGANDA TALKING POINTS I WAS SAYING!'

Thank you. I can see admitting you were just spewing pseudo-patriotic right wing talking points not based on any reality was hard for you but thanks for getting to it anyway.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by jambatrumpet

 

Is your argument that because there is a discrepancy between the number of innocent men, women, and children murdered, that these deaths are somehow justified?

There is no discrepancy there never was!
You quoted bogus numbers then tried to hide your mistake. It never was anywhere near a million.

Do I think they are Justified.
Yes I do, in the long run the Iraqi's will be a hell of a lot better off without Saddam. Now if they can stop blowing themselves up over religious differences then maybe they have a chance.

These are the civilian death numbers YOU quoted:

Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 deaths June 2006
Lancet survey 601,027 deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths June 2006
Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 deaths as a result of the conflict August 2007
Associated Press 110,600 deaths April 2009
Iraq Body Count project 95,888 — 104,595 civilian deaths as a result of the conflict April 2010
en.wikipedia.org...

Your claim of me quoting bogus numbers, and trying to cover my mistake, is disproved by 40% of your own examples.

I only acquiesced to using 'your' lower estimates for the sake of argument.

To take the focus off the numbers, and place it on the morality of killing, and wounding, men, woman and children in the name of 'War'. Especially one entered into under false pretenses. To see if you believe it is justified.

After plenty of wrangling, you provided your answer.
thank you.

reply to post by jambatrumpet


LOL You're still trying to say the lancet report which has been proven to be bogus and the Onion are accurate?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Thepreye

 

And on top of the Lancet report being filled with Bogus figures, I'll go by my sons personal experiences and description of the situation first hand who spent 18 months in country over a bogus report and some posters opinions and rhetoric who have agendas online at a conspiracy site.

Anti-war Soros funded Iraq study

New research published by The New England Journal of Medicine estimates that 151,000 people - less than a quarter of The Lancet estimate - have died since the invasion in 2003.

“The authors should have disclosed the [Soros] donation and for many people that would have been a disqualifying factor in terms of publishing the research,” said Michael Spagat, economics professor at Royal Holloway, University of London.

To take the focus off the numbers, and place it on the morality of killing, and wounding, men, woman and children in the name of 'War'. Especially one entered into under false pretenses. To see if you believe it is justified.

And once again you side step the fact that the Iraqis [Sunni and Shiites] have been blowing themselves up causing a LARGE percentage of those casualties. [A conflict that has been going on for centuries.] Should we bring up Iran's contribution to the death and mayhem? Needlessly extending the war a full two years or more by supplying insurgents with training, weapons and ammo? I've admitted my stance and have shown facts and provided links. What have you provided?

Opinions and Rhetoric

Good night. Some of us have jobs.

Stop trying to sound and act so innocent! Anybody who drives a car or uses Fuel driven public transportation or flies in a jet airliner etc, is just as guilty as the Soldier on the ground.

The only difference is that the Soldiers have the balls to pull the trigger.

Thank you for confirming that this War has nothing to do with liberating the Iraqi people, or protecting American citizens. I agree with you, it is, as you infer, about controlling the resources, mainly oil, of the Middle East.

Concerning your statement that the Soldiers are the only ones with the 'balls' to fight?

Well, me, for one, doesn't think saving a dollar per gallon at the pump, or protecting the interests of a few multi-million/billionaires is worth killing or dying for.

If you do, that's your business.