NASA discovers brand new force of nature

reply to post by CynicalM


That paper makes a strong case for it actually (i.e. being effected by the Keiper Belt)...

Its far more believable than an unknown force....

EDIT: Added link, since on separate page:
www.newtonphysics.on.ca...

reply to post by theAymen




see my ADD ON musding from the original post you cited...
2 posts before your reply..


indeed the probes are light years away from busting out of this galaxy membrane...good observation,

I didnt get the chance to read all the posts so appologies if someone already posted this before me,

Seems to me it might have something to do with "dark matter" or "dark energy" an unproven force that is pushing the universe apart at an excellerating velocity.

It could be having some small effect on the probes. Well thats my guess that these things are somehow linked.

Thanks to the OP for posting, i love these topics

Aaron

reply to post by Hefficide

My imagination is coming up with a few seemingly logical ideas but my first mental instinct was to think "I wonder what Phage will say." Does that happen to anyone else?

Nope. Not in over two years at any rate...i can zip off to establishment science websites and cherry pick with the best of them. I'm more interested in originality and ideas, than accepted dogma anyway, but that's just me.

As an example of one of those original ideas i mentioned, that i doubt you'll read from Phage or his gang of usual suspects, regarding this strange force pulling at the Pioneer probes, would be this;

I don't think we are talking about a force that is, in the strictest sense, pulling on the probes rather i would imagine it is a weak force actually pushing on the probes, in the direction of the Sun.

Why?

The Sun uses Hydrogen and Helium as it's fuel source. It can be thought of as an enormous fusion reactor, that essentially burns or consumes itself, to fuel itself.

Many people imagine the space between worlds and stars to be empty, a total void...but it isn't empty.

There are sparse and randomly scattered atoms of Hydrogen and other gases, that pervade so called 'empty space'. It is estimated that there may be as little as a few atoms of a given gas, every cubic foot of space.

Not much, but certainly not a void.

The Sun's sphere of influence or the Heliosphere, stretches far and wide beyond the outer planets and the Oort cloud (region of the outer Solar system, populated by large numbers of icy and rocky asteroids of all shapes and sizes). This Heliosphere is the area where the Sun still exerts an effect on outer Solar system bodies..and on the random atoms scattered throughout space.

It's my thinking that stars such as our Sun, replenish or add to their fuel supply by 'hoovering up' these random atoms of Hydrogen and Helium that are in, or drift into it's sphere of influence, by exerting a gravitational attraction over them and essentially sucking them to it. (along with asteroids, dust etc), thereby extending it's lifespan.

More relevant to the topic at hand though, is the very weak pushing force being exerted on our Pioneer probes, by these atoms in space, as they are heading towards our Sun.

It's not gravity directly, it's the force of the atoms colliding with the probes, due to the Sun's gravity on the atoms..hence the probes are seemingly attracted to the Sun.

If it is being pulled towards the sun, it has to be because of gravity. Their theory is that since it is so far out, gravity does not reach it, which is untrue, gravity exists everywhere in the universe, the only difference is the magnitude of the gravitational force, caused by the distance between two objects:

F = GMm/R2

* F is the force of attraction between two objects in newtons (N)
* G is the universal gravitational constant in N-m2/kg2
* M and m are the masses of the two objects in kilograms (kg)
* R is the distance in meters (m) between the objects, as measured from their centers of mass

reply to post by spikey


Spikey , thats inspired thinking... I wonder wether the weight of atoms returning would actualy be enough to halt or alter the course of the ship.... fantastic bit of reasoning though ! Would love to see if it happens like you think it does !

reply to post by orionthehunter


The video shows the size of the known universe. The reason it looks like that is probably because we have not looked at everything yet. At least on one side there is sort of an entire galaxy in the way that blocks the view.

I posted it as a reply on why the pioneer probes didn't find a planet with life as we know it.

reply to post by TrueBrit


Thanks mate, appreciate it!

I wondered about the quantity of atoms being enough too, but reasoned that the Heliosphere covers a BIG area and the Sun is a big object. I don't know the exact force being exerted on our probes, but i understand it is very weak indeed. Much weaker that the Sun's gravity would be at the probe's current positions in relation to it.

Maybe there are just enough atoms smacking into the probes being dragged by the Sun's gravity to cause this weak effect, maybe not.

It's only an idea that seems logical enough to me, to be at least part of the cause.

Cheers mate.

I'm confused. If this new force is being seen on the Pioneer probes, why is there nothing about Voyager 1? Voyager 1 is further away than either Pioneer so if this new force is real, it would be observed from Voyager 1 as well. As far as I can find, Voyager 1 is still traveling at 39,000 MPH.

sometimes my basement is dusty, when I clean it eventually I have to let the dust settle and then vaccum.

there's dust in space too, in fact interstellar dust can be a danger in outer space, if some interstellar dust hits one of these units it may have converted into kinetic energy and.... started to slowly move.

Is this a possibility?
Could it just be dust?

Isn't it too early to label this as a force?
That's why science articles suck, the writer never understands anything!

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


I think you're the first one in this thread who actually mentions the EU theory, which also was the first thing i thought about after reading the OP

"After launch, a spacecraft accepts electrons from the surrounding space plasma until the craft's voltage is sufficient to repel further electrons. Near Earth it is known that a spacecraft may attain a negative potential of several tens of thousands of volts relative to its surroundings. So, in interplanetary space, the spacecraft becomes a charged object moving in the Sun's weak electric field. Being negatively charged, it will experience an infinitesimal "tug" toward the positively charged Sun. Of most significance is the fact that the voltage gradient, that is the electric field, throughout interplanetary space remains constant. In other words, the retarding force on the spacecraft will not diminish with distance from the Sun. This effect distinguishes the electrical model from all others because all known force laws diminish with distance. The effect is real and it will have a fundamental impact on cosmology and spacecraft navigation because Pioneer 10 has confirmed the electrical model of Stars!"

www.thunderbolts.info...

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Could very well be mate.

Like someone else said a few posts up (sorry, can't remember your name. but you're in Herts, UK), it could be exotic matter or energy expanding into our area of space, in combination with dust and atoms smashing into the probes.

It might not be a black and white explanation for this very minor deviation in the probes' course, it might be several factors all working together to produce the effect.

Could also be a pulsar contributing to the effect, or an undetected micro black hole positioned in just the right place.

Isn't there supposed to be a galaxy sized gas and dust cloud melding with our own galaxy about now?
I'm sure i read something about that recently. If it is, this would probably confirm the dust and gas theory, as being at least partly responsible.

Originally posted by filosophia
If it is being pulled towards the sun, it has to be because of gravity. Their theory is that since it is so far out, gravity does not reach it, which is untrue, gravity exists everywhere in the universe, the only difference is the magnitude of the gravitational force, caused by the distance between two objects:

F = GMm/R2

* F is the force of attraction between two objects in newtons (N)
* G is the universal gravitational constant in N-m2/kg2
* M and m are the masses of the two objects in kilograms (kg)
* R is the distance in meters (m) between the objects, as measured from their centers of mass

look...this model shows the further you are away from the mass the less of an effect gravity has:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/47cfb04dde51.jpg[/atsimg]

gravity does not reach...if anything they are escaping the gravitational pull..reaching a new constant in a part of space which does not have our familiar gravitational pulls (ie. our sun) acting on it.
unless you mean QUANTUM GRAVITY??

there are four to chose from: gravity, electromagnetics,strong & weak force...in this solar system all are controlled overwhelmingly by our sun.

i believe two of these are not working on the satellites any more....the suns gravity and strong force.

maybe the satellites are in "the area inbetween stars" and are being atracted by a new star and are developing a new constant

o

All the pseudo-scientific posturing notwithstanding, I've got to admit that my first reaction to the OP (and before that when I first saw the news article elsewhere) was as follows:

NASA, as usual, is dead wrong. Pioneer 10 is not being pulled toward the sun, it mearly bounced off the rear-screen projection that we see as the "universe".

Hey! It's as good a theory as any other...LMAO

Probably Dark Matter. Since Dark Matter has mass, it has gravity. Could be pulling if their exists a large pool of Dark Matter in that general area of space.

The 2 pioneer probes were sent out in opposite directions -
About 10 years ago it was noticed that both probes were veering off their trajectory and were bending in a curving motion in opposite directions.
The probes have not yet (nor I doubt will) entered inter stellar space.
The solar system is enclosed within the Oort Cloud which is believed to be full of millions of comets and possibly asteroids. The Oort cloud extends approx half way to the nearest star to the Sun.
Our back yard in the Milky Way is the Orion Arm. The constellation of Orion contains the nearest stellar nursery to us ie Orions Sword Nebula at approx 1,500 light years distance. I read one Astro Scientist state that we are enclosed within the after affects of an ancient massive super nova.
Orions Sword is truly massive and contains thousands of stars yet to be born ie to burn off the outer denser layers and visbley shine. It is not beyond the realms of possiblity that once this nebula (stellar nursery) contained the stars of Orion, Sirius and our Sun.
The influence of the Sun extends only as far as the outer solar system before other forces of cosmic bodys come into play.
It was noted in 2000 that the brightest star in our night sky Sirius at a mere 7 or 8 light years distance made its closet recorded pass to the Sun.
Scientists speculated that this would have disturbed the Oort cloud thus nudging thousands of comets towards the Sun. The good news they say is that it would take to the end of the Suns life cycle before they arrived.
Indeed Scientists have noted that at the end of a main seqence stars life it is bombarded with comets coming inwards frpm its outer regions.
Though we have constants and measurement for aiding us in our awareness of the Cosmos there is still over 90 per cent of the Universe that does not play ball and is unknown.

I think this may end up being a "new phenomena" -- not a new force. It will lead to a better understanding of existing forces.

In conventional terms, it might be the magnetic field of the solar system -- like the Magnetosphere of the earth. That would mean a current of solar wind and ionized particles that would have areas that have more charged particles coming and going depending on where you enter and exit the solar system.

>> The OTHER theory is my own; as I predict "Gravity Streams" between large masses in a galaxy and between galaxies -- much like the ocean currents. My own theory is that gravity is a by-product of space-time, which comes FROM particles in the Universe. It is many orders of magnitude stronger than current theory holds -- but is very diffuse; gravity pushes OUT against everything but particles. The multi-diminesional nature of the Universe is such that there is only ONE FORCE, and the aspects of it display as the many forces like electromagnetism, the nuclear forces and gravity. Space is not something that can be measured directly, because it has it's own dimension; therefore we don't see it as a THING. The older physics theories about an aether I think are closer to the truth than Quantum Physics -- but they are both attempts at describing the same thing.

So, anyway, conservation of energy would be effecting the FLOW of gravity -- just as it does every other motion and force. The GENERAL attraction of the Solar System's mass, is not changed by the gravity "streams" -- it is more a "faster channel" for the flow of space/time. So space ships entering a flow will move faster in one direction than another -- but it does NOT effect mass and acceleration. So, the TIME of the objects passage is faster in one vector because "space" shrinks with the current. When we use propulsion, like a rocket to push a mass through space, another way to look at it (which leads to a BETTER understanding), is that you are accelerating particles in a direction OPPOSITE to your motion. You are only propelled because the "equal and opposite" effect of Newton's laws of motion. But in another view; you are "causing space behind you to EXPAND" -- and therefore, you are closer to your goal. If the space in front of you however shrinks -- you are also closer to your goal, but we do not measure this "anti-acceleration." Hence; we are not aware of Gravity streams, or Faster-Than-Light travel.

But again, the concept of Motion without an effect of acceleration would ACTUALLY, be breaking the Standard Model of Physics -- which is OK with me, because it cannot be a Universal theory, until the Acceleration and Motion are seen as different measurements. Measuring "space" as a different 4-dimensional construct from our "3 Dimensions + time" that we use for objects we relate to, can provide a better understanding of the distortions. Because modern physics does not yet understand gravity -- we've got this theory of "Dark Matter" -- yet another particle to explain things that don't fit. Everything that doesn't fit in modern physics gives rise to a new particle that they have to "look for."

Great catch. S&F
...anybody subscribe to "The Physical Review"? I'd like to read the paper (not just the press release).

I'm thinking these guys would never put their reputations on the line with any such heresy unless they'd thoroughly reviewed their data. Unless of course it's gravity from Planet X/Nibiru (my first thought), and ...

"new force" is just a cover story to explain things about to go wonky.

Could it be a tractor-beam?

".....That's no Sun..."

Here's another crazy thought I had. How do we know the probes are slowing down? What if the Solar System is slowing down? Actually, we would have to be speeding up right? As far as I know, we're hurtling through space just like the rest of the Universe. I'm lead to believe expansion is speeding up. But expansion doesn't include those two probes. So what if expansion is making us speed up instead of the probes slowing down.