Is Yahweh/Jehova the God that Jesus referes to as 'My Father'?

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by zachi

 

Looks like you're barking up the wrong tree. That's o.k Jesus is a pagan idol anyway.
www.messiahtruth.com...
Jesus can never be God.
www.messiahtruth.com...

Rather than posting links to a web site that has little to no relevance, why don't you contribute something of your own thought to the thread? You're a strong contributor to the site, I kinda doubt it's been nothing but links to "MessiahTruth" and the like.

And I dare you to ask a Dallas Cowboys fan to explain to you why the Washington Redskins are going to win the Super Bowl this year, too

Because I love pointing out flaws to all these religions. Awesome.
Awesome again lol

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Because I love pointing out flaws to all these religions. Awesome.
Awesome again lol

Except that you're not doing that, you're just using someone else's opinion, which you don't believe, to counter another opinion which you don't believe. That's both disingenuous and lazy.

To the OP the simple answer is yes.

reply to post by zachi

Jehovah is Jesus.

That is an incorrect statement.

And somebody taught you that incorrectly, based on what the clergy has been teaching since the Council of Nicaea that established this common dogma that is still held to today,
I am not going get into the whole trinity debate. I have done enough research to prove it to myself and others a 100 times over. The bible can and does support both side of this debate and each side can quote scripture and then explain away the other scripture. When you get enough Holy Spirit you finally can see the truth of this matter.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


One way to clear this up is this verse here:
www.simpletoremember.com...
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God’s One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry—one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


An excellent point, as ancient Israel was once God's specially favored people, they had the exclusive truth at one point in history(with the Hebrew Scriptures). They lost it when they rejected the Christ, not because they rejected a trinity. Now they are not special or cursed they are just like any other nationality to God.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Well I'll go with your first part but I believe what you said about them losing faint because of rejecting Jesus is wrong. Tell me what you think of this link.
www.jewfaq.org...

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

One way to clear this up is this verse here:
www.simpletoremember.com...
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

No, it doesn't. This is specifically addressed by the Doctrine of the Trinity, expressed by Augustine as a seven part statement.

1) The Father is God
2) The Son is God
3) The Holy Spirit is God
4) The Father is not the Son
5) The Son is not the Holy Spirit
6) The Holy Spirit is not the Father
7) There is one God

This is not a simple doctrine to understand, but you can start with the overview at Wikipedia. Doctrine of the Trinity

No one taught me that Jesus is Jehovah. I learned it from the Bible.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;itshall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
I bolded "it." If Jesus was just a man, it should read "he."
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Not just a man or any father, but The every lasting Father,
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Jesus will set up this eternal kingdom after the final defeat of Satan.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

You may miss the point here, but the Jews certianly did not:
John 5: 17, 18
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

reply to post by zachi


Well if Jesus was God then he would of been here since the dawn of time. No reason for him to be born of virgin (which is a pagan idea) to forgive the sin of mankind.
judaism.about.com...

God is one. Belief in one God is a fundamental Jewish belief. The Shema, a central prayer, states "Hear, Israel: The Lord is God, The Lord is one." The idea of any other God is heretical for Jews. It follows that all prayer and praise can only be directed to God.

How could there be a trinity then?
www.messiahtruth.com...

Christian theology holds that Jesus was more than just the Messiah. They hold that Jesus is G-d Himself. First, let’s explore a couple of New Testament verses which make it perfectly clear that Jesus was subordinate to G-d, and not equal to Him: Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (KJV)

There are things that G-d keeps from Himself? Is such a thing even possible? It’s obvious that these verses contradict Jesus being equal and of the same substance as G-d Almighty. Christians say he’s G-d, and then they say he’s the Son of G-d. Make up your mind. Which one is he? Is he G-d or is he the Messiah? He can’t be both, and closer examination will show he is neither.

www.messiahtruth.com...

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: HASHEM is our G-d, HASHEM is the One and Only. (Artscroll)

Nowhere in the Torah will you find that G-d is comprised of a Trinity. At the Council of Nicea (325 CE), the doctrine of the Bianity became canonized, equating Jesus to the substance of G-d in Christian theology. The Council of Constantinople in 381 CE added the Holy Spirit to the Bianity and the Trinity was canonized. These councils contradicted the Torah of Moses. See Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 (13:1) for instructions regarding changes to the Torah. Who are we to believe? Moses, or these councils?

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Well if Jesus was God then he would of been here since the dawn of time. No reason for him to be born of virgin (which is a pagan idea) to forgive the sin of mankind.

... and here is an example of why you should try learning something, if you wish to intelligently contribute to the discussion. Christians DO believe that Jesus was "here since the dawn of time", hence the bit in the Gospel of John:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made."

He was born of the Virgin Mary in order to become a physical man as part of God's plan for our salvation, but this was not his beginning. Because you apparently know very little about Christianity, apart from how to google up pointless links, you would not have known that, but now you do. See how helpful people can be?

reply to post by adjensen


Learn what? I already know more then you about the Bible. Yet you just attack me for using links to support my cause. There is no such thing as God having to become a man in order to die for the sins of man. That is a pagan concept.
That idea has influence from various other pagan religions.
www.aish.com...

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

www.jewfaq.org...

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought.

The Messiah is not a savior concept. No man can become God or God cannot become God. God is one in Judaism. As well Jesus was never a prophet since he preached against the Torah.
www.messiahtruth.com...

judaism.about.com...

GOD AS THREE? The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies. In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

Who do you believe now? God and Me or your man god?

Here is the run down of the verse you posted. Guess what? It contradicts the Jewish concept of God. Isn't that wonderful?

MAN AS GOD? Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19). Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

Looks like I was proven right, again.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Here is the run down of the verse you posted. Guess what? It contradicts the Jewish concept of God. Isn't that wonderful?

.. snip ..

Looks like I was proven right, again.

You would be proven right if you were Jewish and held Jewish beliefs, yes. As neither you nor I are Jewish, your posting of Jewish refutations of Christianity proves nothing, other than your laziness and dishonesty of argument. Go read up on the Doctrine of the Trinity if you wish to understand why both you, and the source you cite, are wrong.

And you've demonstrated, quite clearly, that you have little to no knowledge of the Bible, let alone more than someone who has studied it.

reply to post by adjensen


There is no Trinity in the Bible. Why should I have to look it up after you got upset for me using Jewish sources? How hypocritical of you. Of course you can keep saying Trinity till you choke. But looks like you have been proven wrong again.
www.messiahtruth.com...

At the Council of Nicea (325 CE), the doctrine of the Bianity became canonized, equating Jesus to the substance of G-d in Christian theology. The Council of Constantinople in 381 CE added the Holy Spirit to the Bianity and the Trinity was canonized. These councils contradicted the Torah of Moses. See Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 (13:1) for instructions regarding changes to the Torah. Who are we to believe? Moses, or these councils?

www.jewfaq.org...

G-d is One One of the primary expressions of Jewish faith, recited twice daily in prayer, is the Shema, which begins "Hear, Israel: The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd is one." This simple statement encompasses several different ideas: 1. There is only one G-d. No other being participated in the work of creation. 2. G-d is a unity. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to G-d is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite. 3. G-d is the only being to whom we should offer praise. The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other.

What do you believe God or Jesus? You can't believe both.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
There is no Trinity in the Bible. Why should I have to look it up after you got upset for me using Jewish sources? How hypocritical of you. Of course you can keep saying Trinity till you choke. But looks like you have been proven wrong again.

Of course there is a Trinity in the Bible. By denying it, you demonstrate your lack of knowledge in the text of the New Testament. Continue posting links to the Old Testament beliefs, though. Eventually someone might listen to you. As I am not Jewish, I am not one who will.

What do you believe God or Jesus? You can't believe both.

Read the Doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus IS God. But feel free to continue to embrace your ignorance.

reply to post by adjensen


Well how can there be a New testament without the Old Testament? You trying to call me a liar and deceiver for using sources from the OT. Yet if I was support the Trinity then you would love that I'm following your ways in life. You're a hypocrite! Plane and simple. I have proven you wrong and let you deny what I have used.
Why use the OT to proclaim however you picture Jesus and then criticize it when someone says otherwise. How hypocritical.
www.jewfaq.org...
If this link doesn't spell it out for you then why are you following the Bible?

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by adjensen

 

Well how can there be a New testament without the Old Testament? You trying to call me a liar and deceiver for using sources from the OT. Yet if I was support the Trinity then you would love that I'm following your ways in life. You're a hypocrite! Plane and simple. I have proven you wrong and let you deny what I have used.

You are using Jewish claims about Christ in an attempt to dissuade a Christian. As I said, that is lazy and disingenuous because you don't believe either one, and it is completely fruitless. Because I am not Jewish, I cannot be proven to be wrong with Jewish claims. I wouldn't expect a Jew to feel different than the sources you cite, but that means nothing to me, any more than I am swayed by Islamic, Hindu or secular claims against Christianity.

I could care less if you support the concept of the Christian Trinity. But, were I you, I'd be embarrassed for making claims like you have done ("I know more about the Bible than you do") when you don't even understand basic concepts like the difference between the Old and New Testaments, and what that means.

It is ironic that, on a forum whose motto proclaims "Deny Ignorance", you seem almost obsessive about revealing yours.

reply to post by adjensen


Well how ironic all these vereses I've been using are from the Bible yet you use the Bible for your course. Like I said How can their be a tritinty and then God can only be One? That's a huge contradiciton to look over. Don't you agree if you're don't going to accept what I have to offer to the table then why have me look from your poin of view in the Bible? That doesn't make sense.
www.jewfaq.org...

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Well how ironic all these vereses I've been using are from the Bible yet you use the Bible for your course. Like I said How can their be a tritinty and then God can only be One? That's a huge contradiciton to look over. Don't you agree if you're don't going to accept what I have to offer to the table then why have me look from your poin of view in the Bible? That doesn't make sense.

You offer nothing but other people's work, which you clearly don't understand. Because you're apparently unable to grasp the concept of the Trinity (which is nothing to be ashamed of, it is rather deep,) you continue to labour in your mistaken belief that the New Testament contradicts the Old. It does not. Christian theologians understand quite well the concept of "There is one God" and yet still seem to get along.

I'm not going to accept your point of view because it not only is not your point of view, but even if it was, it is incorrect, unless one was a Jew, which I am not.

reply to post by adjensen


If you don't seeing the truth then fine with me. The OT makes it clear God is not a human, he is eternal and above all. You can keep on ranting how the Trinity is in the Torah but it is not and that is the truth.
www.messiahtruth.com...
www.jewfaq.org...
It's a contradiction to say God is one and then say God is three.
Am I three people? No! I'm only one person.
Plus no man is God and God can never be a man.
I refuse to give the Christian New Testament a chance.
www.messiahtruth.com...
You need to learn about you beliefs more. Instead of following what these pastors say.
judaism.about.com...
Like I said no man can become God. You clearly follow blindly in life.
www.messiahtruth.com...