Is Yahweh/Jehova the God that Jesus referes to as 'My Father'?

Having spent the first 16yrs of my life being forced to go to church I have read the Bible many times. I am not a Christian but one of the questions the preacher/pastor of my old Baptist church could never answer is the one posed above. I cannot see how Jesus is talking about Yahweh/Jehova when he refers to his father. Can you??
Answers on a postcard.

reply to post by WENEEDAREVOLUTION


Why not?

If the Jewish people had a God named Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH or whatever, then Jesus came along as the flesh incarnate son of that God, then it makes sense to me. Later Mohammed came along as a prophet with teachings that created Islam. Many other religions exist that point to a specific God. Nothing says they all have to be different Gods. Maybe they just have different names and their stories are spread by different prophets?

Look up "Deism." That was the religion of many of our Founding Fathers although they are known as Christians, they technically were not Christians. Today most people claim Deism does not exist, yet most practicing Christians are tolerant of other religions and views, so this makes them closer to Deists than Christians.

I contend that very few practicing Christians actually follow the teachings of Christ to the extreme that would be required to call themself a Christian. I also believe that most practicing Muslims are moderate and don't follow the teachings of Mohammed to the extent that would be required to call themselves a Muslim.

In my opinion all "moderates" are actually Deists. They believe in One God, that goes by a number of names and has sent a number of prophets to spread the word. They believe that he sent Jesus as his incarnate son and/or prophet. They believe to different extents in spreading the word of God by whatever book and evangelism their most recent prophet suggested, but they don't believe that all other religions are doomed to eternal damnation.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
In my opinion all "moderates" are actually Deists. They believe in One God, that goes by a number of names and has sent a number of prophets to spread the word. They believe that he sent Jesus as his incarnate son and/or prophet. They believe to different extents in spreading the word of God by whatever book and evangelism their most recent prophet suggested, but they don't believe that all other religions are doomed to eternal damnation.

I suppose that it depends on the nature of the word "moderate", but a Christian is one who believes that Jesus was the son of God, is God, and is a part of God's plan for salvation. If one does not believe that, one is not a Christian, as you say, perhaps more of a deist. But I have, to date, met no one who professes to be a Christian, even a casual one, who does not believe that Christ was more than simply a prophet, and this is, of course, a significant difference from the other Abrahamic faiths.

I'm still working it out for myself. I've read and seen analysis about YHWH from supposed experts, and then re read the OT and a few other references.

but here is my problem. I can't read ancient: Hebrew, Aramahic, egyptian, summarian, greek etc. I also know that my mind is wired different from those ancient peoples.

If, however, the translations are accurate, then I would say (and just my opinion) that YHWH is a seperate entity from the one Jesus is reffering to.

Well it determines how you interpret Judaism and Christianity.

didn’t Jesus refer to himself quite often as the Son of Man? Aren’t we to learn from Psalm 146 that there is no help to be had from the Son of Man? There’s a reason why Jesus called himself this. Jesus was a Jew, and as such, there are things that Christians who deify him will miss. It is quite likely that Jesus was trying to prevent his followers from deifying him.

www.messiahtruth.com...

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Well it determines how you interpret Judaism and Christianity.

I presume that you don't find it surprising that a web site run by fundamental Jews would have a reasoned argument that Christ was not the Messiah :-)

Using Jewish arguments as a basis for disputing Christianity is a bit like using Glenn Beck's arguments for disputing Barack Obama, eh? Works for people who already don't think much of Obama, not much else.

Whos says that violent, jealous, man that calls himself Yaweh, is God? Yaweh is The God of The Jews, The Jews are his children, Jesus spoke to both Jew and Gentile, the Gentiles were not given The 10 Commandments, Jews were. Jesus spoke of Love, Forgiveness, and Freewill, This Yaweh never gave ANYONE freewill, not even in the so called Garden, because Adam and Eve had rules then, before they ever sinned, and if it was their freewill to fault, then they should never have gotten punished for doing so. Yaweh never gave mankind freewill, he is not the True God.

Yaweh is Oz, just a mysterious voice in the clouds that kills his own creations when they disobey. No way, IMO Jesus came from such a Demon.

reply to post by adjensen


Jesus also said, "No one gets to the Father, but through me." If Jesus is infallible, then a Christian must necessarily believe that everyone else will not go to Heaven. To define yourself as a Christian, you must believe that every other religion is doomed to an eternity without God.

Are you still a Christian?

Christians also cannot believe that good works, actions, and charity are enough to get you into Heaven. You have to accept Christ as your savior to get to Heaven. All those really nice, good people that you know that are "spiritual" and pray to God, and give to charity, and help out their neighbors, they are all going to Hell unless they give their lives over to Christ.

So, are you still a Christian, or are you starting to become a moderate?....which I will say makes you a Deist.

reply to post by adjensen


I have to use something right? There are different pieces of the puzzle and someone has to find them.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by adjensen

 

Jesus also said, "No one gets to the Father, but through me." If Jesus is infallible, then a Christian must necessarily believe that everyone else will not go to Heaven. To define yourself as a Christian, you must believe that every other religion is doomed to an eternity without God.

Are you still a Christian?

Christians also cannot believe that good works, actions, and charity are enough to get you into Heaven. You have to accept Christ as your savior to get to Heaven.

Not sure what I've said or done that leaves you to believe otherwise, but yes, this is what Christian theology teaches, and this is what I believe. Christ reconciles us to God, not the law, not our works, just him.

Though it isn't a part of my religious heritage, I am open to the notion of purgatory, because I personally find that to be a positive thing, but even granting that, if you choose not to accept Christ's salvation, you reject God, and you will not be a part of his kingdom. This is the Christian belief, I recognize that there are plenty of other beliefs out there, but this is the one that I personally hold.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by adjensen

 

I have to use something right? There are different pieces of the puzzle and someone has to find them.

Well, if you're on a mission, sure, any tool in the arsenal. Doesn't mean that you're going to win anyone over, and most Christians who would follow your link are going to be put off by the nature of the whole thing. Sort of like sending them to "evilbible.com", which I'm sure has converted a grand total of zero Christians into atheists.

Personally, I see little need to contribute to the already overwhelming amount of negativity that's already a part of our lives. Though, as I just posted, I believe that my views are correct, I am not interested in imposing them on anyone else, unless I'm asked, or someone posts something which misrepresents my faith.

reply to post by adjensen


Ok. Fair enough, if you are convicted to that belief, then you are indeed a Christian. Props to you!

What I typically find is that people are not really convicted enough to that belief to admit condemning the rest of the world to hell if they don't agree with them. Those are the ones I call moderates. They go to a Christian church, they follow most of the teachings of Christ, but they stop short of condemning all other religions to hell.

I am one of those "moderates." I believe Christ was an historical figure, I believe that he may have been an incarnate piece of God in the flesh, and to a certain extent we all are. I attend a Baptist church, but I also believe that Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism and even Wiccans all have their places and purposes. I believe they are all a part of God's plan, and I believe that all of the names of all of the Gods are pieces of the same, singular, ever-living creator.

Therefore, I consider myself a Deist. I believe in one, ever-living God that may go by a number of names, and may have revealed himself in a number of different ways, and has probably sent a number of different messengers to different peoples of the world.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
What I typically find is that people are not really convicted enough to that belief to admit condemning the rest of the world to hell if they don't agree with them. Those are the ones I call moderates. They go to a Christian church, they follow most of the teachings of Christ, but they stop short of condemning all other religions to hell.

Personally, I find this to be rather unfair (hence the "wiggle room" that purgatory grants) and I hate, hate, hate, the evangelical / fundamentalist approach of using hell as a motivator, but any Christian who believes that salvation can come without Christ doesn't understand Christian theology. I'd even go so far as to say that they don't understand the concept of theology in general.

If you take Christ out of Christianity entirely, you are left with Judaism, which pretty much 100% of Christians don't "qualify" for, and whose law was hard enough to live up to the expectations of in the time of Christ when the Temple still existed, let alone today. If you accept Christ as nothing more than a prophet or good teacher, even ignoring the conflict of his claims versus that limitation, you wind up with another sect of Judaism which is predicated solely on works outside of the law, and which is in conflict with both Judaism and Christianity (Judaism viewing the law as perfect and attainable, Christianity viewing salvation by works impossible.)

So, mired in theology as I am, I'm not sure how to reconcile your perspective, but I guess that we'll all sort it out in the end. For me, remaining tolerant and respectful of others' right to believe as they see fit is the important thing to keep in mind.

reply to post by adjensen


I respect your opinion, and I recently tried to pin the Pastor of my church to the same conviction, and he passed my test as well. He had no problem admitting that he felt all those who had the opportunity to accept Christ and hadn't done so, would not reach the kingdom of heaven. I disagree, but I admire the conviction.

He and I also agree with you that Hell isn't a good motivator. Missing out on the opportunity to live in peace with your creator is a good motivator, but on the most basic level the definition of "hell" is just death in a spiritual sense. If your spirit does not reach heaven, then it just ceases to exist, or according to some other spiritual beliefs, your spirit just continues to recycle itself at a lower level until it dies.


With that in mind, please try to respond to the portion of my post below. How do your views of Christianity reconcile with my view of Religion as a whole? What if I was a member of your church, yet I was honest about my view of Christ? Would it be a problem? Or would you just attempt to "educate" me at every opportunity?

Therefore, I consider myself a Deist. I believe in one, ever-living God that may go by a number of names, and may have revealed himself in a number of different ways, and has probably sent a number of different messengers to different peoples of the world.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
With that in mind, please try to respond to the portion of my post below. How do your views of Christianity reconcile with my view of Religion as a whole? What if I was a member of your church, yet I was honest about my view of Christ? Would it be a problem? Or would you just attempt to "educate" me at every opportunity?

Therefore, I consider myself a Deist. I believe in one, ever-living God that may go by a number of names, and may have revealed himself in a number of different ways, and has probably sent a number of different messengers to different peoples of the world.

Hmm... tricky :-)

If you were a member of my church (Methodist, by the way, though I also attend the Catholic church periodically,) and did not believe in the divinity of Christ, I would wonder about your reasons for belonging to the church. A fair number of people who go to church do so for social reasons, and I don't really see a problem with that.

There's a fairly devout Hindu fellow who goes to my church and belongs to the small group that I'm in, and I, once again, see no reason to object. (He started going there because he was curious about Christianity and it was the closest church to his home. Now I think he's decided that we're okay to hang out with :-)

There's another guy who is a member that holds the Quaker belief that we all go to heaven -- in the end, God's all about love and forgiveness, and it doesn't matter what your opinion or actions were, you are eventually redeemed (for him, through Christ,) though this is contrary to our religion's stated beliefs.

So, I would say that, so long as you didn't go around trying to convince others that Christ wasn't divine, I'd have no issue with you belonging to my church. I do not tend to lean evangelical, so my attitude is that it's my responsibility to let you (anyone, really,) know what Christianity is all about, and if you don't like it or don't agree, that's between you and God.

So long as you don't misrepresent my faith, I'm perfectly content to have you believe whatever you want to believe. You're welcome to express your beliefs and complaints about Christianity to me, as I believe that open dialogue helps all of us.

If, on the other hand, you were to join my church, take up teaching Sunday School or giving sermons, and espouse your believe that Christ wasn't divine, I'd have no problem chucking you out on account of heresy ;-)

Originally posted by getreadyalready
How do your views of Christianity reconcile with my view of Religion as a whole?

Oh, sorry, missed this bit.

I refer you to my post above -- if you take Christ out of Christianity, I'm not really sure what one is left with, because we can't really be Jewish, and if Christianity is nothing more than Judaism without the law of Torah and Talmud, it's basically nothing. In addition, I believe that the concept of purgatory answers objections that both you and I raise about a person who lives a faithful life, but for cultural or other reasons finds acceptance of Christ to be impossible.

I can't go along with "everyone gets in", because that seems to be unjust, and results in the lack of accountability for our actions, but I also struggle with "No Christ in this life, no salvation in the next", because that seems personally unfair, though ultimately just (as I've debated on a different thread.)

reply to post by adjensen


Thanks for your response.

I do think Christ was divine by the way. I think we are all divine to a lesser extent, but I believe Christ and Buddha have been by far the most divine. I also believe that they are a very good and proven way to reach God. I just don't believe they are the "only" way. In my mind that makes it impossible to call myself a Christian, but I know plenty of other people that believe similarly and still call themselves Christians, and I don't associate with them much. I would prefer to be around someone that understands their own belief and doesn't try to sugarcoat it or adjust their message for different audiences. I prefer bluntness, combined with open-mindedness and good debate.

I must also say that I am a Mason. Mason's are mostly Christians, although we are tolerant and welcoming of all religions that believe in "one, ever-living God." So, in practice we are Deists. That kind of goes along with the Founding Fathers of our country as well. I held my beliefs long before I joined the Masons, but I was glad to find that my belief fit in so well with their lessons. I was also glad to find the preacher at this local Baptist church that enjoys a good debate on a weeknight and is still happy to see me on Sunday, LOL!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I do think Christ was divine by the way. I think we are all divine to a lesser extent, but I believe Christ and Buddha have been by far the most divine. I also believe that they are a very good and proven way to reach God. I just don't believe they are the "only" way. In my mind that makes it impossible to call myself a Christian

Yes, it does, though there's nothing wrong with "sort of" being a Christian. It's a lot more refreshing than a number of others on ATS who espouse a wide variety of beliefs about Christ that are contrary to Christian doctrine and then get indignant when I tell them that they're entitled to their views, but not entitled to call themselves Christian :-)

I agree that we're all a little divine, in that there's a bit of God in us, but Christ WAS God. That's the "divine" bit. Father, Son, Holy Ghost. All of them God, and that's why the theology requires Christ's role in salvation.

I was also glad to find the preacher at this local Baptist church that enjoys a good debate on a weeknight and is still happy to see me on Sunday, LOL!

From my experience, those who are strongest in their faiths are usually the ones who enjoy talking things over with those who disagree with them. For myself, my relationship to God is as much an intellectual pursuit as it is a spiritual one, so I appreciate persons like yourself that challenge me to think about why I believe the things that I do.

reply to post by WENEEDAREVOLUTION


Jehovah is Jesus. The part of the Trinity that interacts with man is Jesus, Jehovah, Yaweh, etc.
The Father can not interact with man because of sin.

reply to post by zachi


Looks like you're barking up the wrong tree. That's o.k Jesus is a pagan idol anyway.
www.messiahtruth.com...
Jesus can never be God.
www.messiahtruth.com...