So, ATS, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

reply to post by SlovenlyGhost

It is (supposed) to be if you are Christian or Catholic in particular, you accepted how ever many children God gave to you and He always will care for you (like the fallen sparrow). In other words it's in God's hands and not ours.

Yeh,i know it's a horrible thing and I'm against anyone who thinks they can play God,but the point I was trying to get across is that,even if u ban it,it will still happen.The only difference is is now it's illegal and more risky for the mother.It's a touchy subject.I think it will always be split between pro-life and pro-choice.So

Why does sentience have to define a person?

A human being has a brain of sufficient sophistication to support sentience and self-awareness - you could say, support a process which can say "I". What is the Pro Life definition of a human being ? Anything with human DNA ? That includes HeLa cultures.

To forestall a Slippery Slope objection about the concept of "proper function", IMHO an organism without a brain (and disconnected neurons do not amount to one) is not a human being - no more than a HeLa culture is a human being.

reply to post by igor_ats


Pro life group means we are against killing innocent humans who have not been tried in a court of law, have comitted no crime,

However I am in favor of the death penalty, a human gets arrested, is gound guilty of lets say first degree premeditated murder, meaning they thought about killing the other human, thought about letting them live, planned on a method to kill the other human, brought the plan to fruition, (money, where it was going to happen, who if anyone would help, part of the money is spent buying the accomplice acquiesence and cooperation, how to dispose of the body), and then goes ahead and kills the other human. The husband was just murdered by his wife in that scenario.

The guilty wife ought to get the death penalty.

The innocent infant, no.





liberals are in favor of killing innocent infants, and not in favor of death penalty for guilty criminals, go figure that out.

Pro "it's none of my business"

second line

reply to post by slugger9787


I'll tell you what; how about I tell you Abortion is between doctor and patient and has absolutely nothing to do with any other person in any shape or form.

You all can voice an opinion all you like but let me tell you I am yet to meet an anti-abortionist who is not a hypocrite and believe you me none of them are in any position to be judging any women having this procedure or the doctors that perform them.

Regarding your personal nasty and bitter response...you own it sweety!

reply to post by slugger9787


You pro-life supporters are good at this, are'nt you!

Now got the stats on the following:

1. How many fathers don't pay child support?

2. How many fathers don't pay 50% of the day to day costs of bringing up their children for birth to18 years?

3. How many fathers bail out when their kid is born with a low to moderate disability?

4. How many kids live out on the streets with no basic neccessities?

5. How many kids (and adults) are killed on our roads because of alcohol or illegal substances?

6. How many kids die by drowning (just backyard pools alone)?

7. How many kids in the world today starve to death?

8. How many kids die through lack of medical attention?

9. How many LIVE kids are murdered each year?

10. How many kids go missing each year?

I can add to the list but perhaps you could be more productive and start there rather than worry about the topic of how many unborn fetus's are aborted!!!!!

reply to post by AmericanDaughter

Well, since my post was concerned with the labeling technique employed by both sides, I don't think it was actually responded to. Capital punishment has nothing to do with abortion, right, but it certainly has something to do with "life" and since the question is not "are you pro-abortion, or anti-abortion" but rather, "pro-life" or "pro-choice" I don't think you get my point at all, which is fine, except you thought to respond to my post without understanding the essence of it, even a little bit.
You people aren't PRO-LIFE, you're ANTI-ABORTION. And the other side aren't PRO-CHOICE, they're PRO-ABORTION. Hopefully the simple language and CAPs for emphasis will serve, where the reasoned argument failed.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by slugger9787

 

I'll tell you what; how about I tell you Abortion is between doctor and patient and has absolutely nothing to do with any other person in any shape or form.
AND HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER PATIENT THE BABY RIGHT.
in a normal labor and delivery pregancy the Doctor admits one patient to the hospital. How many does he dismiss?
TWO.
In a emergency delivery of a baby a doctor admits one patient to the hospital. How many does he dismiss
TWO.
In an emergency delivery of a baby at six months gestation the doctor admits one patient to the hospital, How many does he dismiss?
TWO.
In a instance where the woman is three months pregnant and falls down the front steps, and gets admitted to the hospital, only one admit, How many does the doctor have to write death reports for if both mother and baby die due to the fall?
TWO
How many bodies are sent to the morgue if a three month pregnant woman dies in a car wreck?
TWO.
So just because the baby is wanted in the above cases means IT is a baby,
And when the baby is unwanted IT is a glob of yukkie tumorous growth?



You all can voice an opinion all you like but let me tell you I am yet to meet an anti-abortionist who is not a hypocrite and believe you me none of them are in any position to be judging any women having this procedure or the doctors that perform them.

abortion is between a doctor and his PATIENTS which means more than one or guessTWO

reply to post by bluemirage5


Yes blue mirage the world outside of the WOMB is a very dangerous place indeed.
And because of abortion now mothers have turned the WOMB,
supposed to be the safest place on earth,
into a death camp.

you know that a mirage is nothing but an illusion dont you.

Women who have abortions and the men who are the cocreators in the miracle of life, have a MIRAGE of their aborted baby up to the day they die.
The mirage is the illusive haunting guilt ridden faslely manfactured memories
of their baby every time they see a child the age in years
equal to the number of years ago they had the abortion.

reply to post by slugger9787


I would appreciate it if you could separate my posts from yours before you paste it together on one thread just so other readers can tell who forgot to take their happy pill today!

I'll say it again, when it comes to matters between doctor and patient, mind your own business.

Now got those stats for me? I've already got them and those stats are pretty damn embarrassing to say the least.


As for the anti-abortionists:

Question: How many of you are prepared to come forward and pick up the bill for the day to day living costs of bringing up child/ren for 18 years including the medical costs of the mother delivering that child/ren that would had been otherwise aborted? And how many of you will pick up the full cost of that child/ren who is born with a severe to moderate disability for all their lives?

Answer: Not one of you!!!

reply to post by bluemirage5


the thread is about pro life or pro death.
Not about statistics for homeless starving children.

I do not comprehend how to separate out so as to not confuse readers.

The abortion , cough cough, is between the doctor and his
TWO patients,
and the two people who cocreated the baby.

But the women do not admit the baby inside them has an opinion.
And do not consider the opinion of the biological father of the baby.

The APA is seriously considering eliminating NPD.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
The reason: It is an epidemic in America.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by slugger9787

 

You pro-life supporters are good at this, are'nt you!

Now got the stats on the following:

1. How many fathers don't pay child support?

The total number of fathers minus the number of fathers who pay child support.

2. How many fathers don't pay 50% of the day to day costs of bringing up their children for birth to18 years?

The total number of fathers minus the number of fathers who pay 0% to 49% and 51% to 100%.

3. How many fathers bail out when their kid is born with a low to moderate disability?

The total number of fathers minus the number who do not bail out.

4. How many kids live out on the streets with no basic neccessities?

The total number of children minus the ones living in a home of with the basic necessities.

5. How many kids (and adults) are killed on our roads because of alcohol or illegal substances?

30,000 per year.

6. How many kids die by drowning (just backyard pools alone)?

Total number of kids minus number of kids who do not drown.

7. How many kids in the world today starve to death?

Total number of kids minus the ones who do not starve.

8. How many kids die through lack of medical attention?

Not sure.
But 1.5 million die every year due to the medical attention of a abortion doctor.
9. How many LIVE kids are murdered each year?

1.5 million babies that are aborted are alive. They have their own blood and their own heartbeat.

10. How many kids go missing each year?

Not very many.

I can add to the list but perhaps you could be more productive and start there rather than worry about the topic of how many unborn fetus's are aborted!!!!!

reply to post by slugger9787

But the women do not admit the baby inside them has an opinion.

Prove that it has an opinion. If its not conscious, how can it have an opinion? Does bacterial colonies have opinions?

And do not consider the opinion of the biological father of the baby.

Even if they did to some degree, the woman should have the final say. So nothing would change.

reply to post by Starbug3MY


The USA has courts of justice who condem a life to death. Of those on death row how many have been found innocent? Of those who already received the lethal injection or electric chair have later been found innocent?

How many kids with disabilities are used as guinea pigs for large pharmaceutical corporations? How many of them live past the age of 60? Most, without the guardianship and protection of their parents, are condemed the day they were born.

Of the unborn fetus that is aborted in the later stages of pregnancy makes my stomach crawl however how many of them have severe abnormalties? Would I had aborted an unborn fetus knowing it had a severe disability? Yes.

I can not imagine how the nurse, you depicted in your post, could had felt when those twin babies were thrown in to a bucket to drown. Perhaps they may have looked "normal" but what of their internal organs? Perhaps they would not had survived soon after full term. We don't know, she would'nt had known.

Some things are just best left alone and we concern ourselves with children who ARE alive and how we can make the world a better place for those kids. One LIVE child unwanted and ignored by the system is one too many in my books.

reply to post by slugger9787


How many children go missing every year?

You said: not many

Here in Australia we have a population of approx 22 million. Every year 4000 children go missing and most are never found.

In the USA alone, 1 million children go missing every year.

Let me also tell you motor vehicle injuries are the largest cause of death of children in the USA, most could had been avoided.

One out of every eight child under the age of 12 in the USA alone goes to bed hungry.

Worldwide, motor vehicle injuries causing death among children is more than 260,000 a year
Drowning among children 175,000 a year
Burns causing death among children 96,000
Falls causing death among children 47,000
Toxins causing death among children 47,000
Every year 100 million children die of hunger or illness (thats every 3.5 seconds a child dies)
3 billion people survive on US$2 a day

I have more stats but the more I look the worse it gets and you still obsess over how many children are aborted each year in the USA?

Try feeding your starving kids first before you worry about one that has'nt had it's first breath yet!

Originally posted by joechip
Well, since my post was concerned with the labeling technique employed by both sides. . .You people aren't PRO-LIFE, you're ANTI-ABORTION. And the other side aren't PRO-CHOICE, they're PRO-ABORTION. Hopefully the simple language and CAPs for emphasis will serve, where the reasoned argument failed.

Anti-choice is factually correct term. One choice is no choice - hence anti-choice. Since they're not all pro-life (death penalty, war etc.), except when it comes to abortion than it's only the abortion topic they're talking about.

Pro-abort is not correct. "Pro-abortion" is misleading and polemic. If you are in favor of people being able to "choose" (= vote for) the Communist party at an election, that doesn't make you "pro-communist".

"Pro-choice" = in favor of women's right to have an abortion.
"Pro-abortion" = in favor of more women actually having abortions.

The difference should be obvious. Pro-lifers here keep missing this for some reason.

Basically:

pro-life-but-only-in-relation-abortion
pro-abortion-choice
anti-abortion-choice

take your pick.

reply to post by joechip

You people aren't PRO-LIFE, you're ANTI-ABORTION. And the other side aren't PRO-CHOICE, they're PRO-ABORTION.

I think you make a good point about honest terminology. But, yeah, looks like everyone is ignoring your suggestion. I look at the posts after yours, and it's the same 'ole.

It's funny how we can go into this thread, or that, could be about aliens, or government lies, etc., but whatever the topic, there are always lots of people who are absolutely manic about using proper terms in a debate. We've all seen it, definitions are dissected, updated, disputed. Nothing wrong with the idea, maybe we all recognize some value in doing this.

But when it comes to abortion, seemingly both sides are in agreement to stick with the PR terms instead! Or else, they begin hurling the opposites as insults, such as "pro-death", or "anti-choice".

Sheesh. Like I mentioned a couple pages ago, way too much emotion here clouding the issue. If we all agree that abortion is a problem in some sense, then how are we ever going to make progress if no one can even keep their cool enough to speak in a civil manner?

I made a suggestion some posts back too, after seeing that almost everyone was in agreement about the fact that irresponsible sex was not acceptable by either "side". This is actually some "common ground" when we think about it. A logical next step would be???

Well, I'm not sure the next step will be getting our genitals "certified" with a stamp of responsibility, but that comment that someone made was sort of an attempt at recognizing that we need to look for solutions, to the parts of this difficult problem, that we do all agree upon already.

Even just phrasing useful questions can sometimes lead us to possible solutions. I do this all the time when solving problems in "real life". Don't we all?

SO, how do we get people to act more responsibly when it comes to sex? Is such a thing even possible, or are we doomed to the same old thing, people being irresponsible, taking the easy way out, abortion included? I'd like to hear what others think about this. Could be more useful than hurling insults!

JR

reply to post by JR MacBeth


Perhaps the original post should had been: "How many on ATS has had irresponsible sex?" regardless of a pregnancy or not.....

reply to post by bluemirage5


Thank you bluemirage. Yeah, sure seems like just about everyone posting here agrees that sex is still supposed to have some consequences. It may not be much of a starting point, when the issue of abortion is so polarizing by it's nature, but it's something at least.

Maybe others will agree that irresponsible sex is something worth addressing in the context of this greater issue of abortion. Maybe some will even offer some ideas on how we can make some positive steps in the right direction.

JR