Lying to our children

Originally posted by TeknikMake yourself happy in your make-believe realm.

I no longer care

Lies? I see no lies in the statements below...

All the toys I buy you for Christmas are going to a credit card with an APR of 25% and you'll actually be paying for all this when I die. Sleep tight honey bunny!

That nickle I gave you for your first tooth actually came from the change I got from buying a Playboy because your mother just doens't cut it anymore.

St. Patrick's day isn't about pinching your classmates, it's about drinking green beer until you puke and pass out in your car while driving home, leaving you without a father.

Valentine's day will be a day you will soon treasue honey bumpkins - it'll be the day you loose your virginity to a the man you will marry. Later you'll divorce him because he'll beat you.

They are every day-in day-out facts that can be backed by statistics

My point here is to prove that if the child knew more about the truth than about the reality of their fictional holiday hereos at such an early age, or even as they grew up, chances are they'd rather be tucked away in some small hole in the ground than go out inthe the "real" world, the scarey world, thus doing more harm.

Childhood is the age of innocence and bliss - the only time in your life that you can be at a playground ...playing, as children do...playing make believe...and not have the thought running in the back of your mind "Haven't I seen that car parked there with that man in it for every day in the past week?" - The child should be thinking..."Wow! If I could fly I'd be all over this place. Hey, Bobby, I just shot you with my laser gun, haha, your'e dead!"

All I'm saying is, if you don't ease a child into what's fact and fiction in this world, they're going to grow up being more frightened of the things that affect their parents lives more than their's, and as long as the parent can always provide for the child, that should not be their concern. Those children that grew up in the Holocaust had their reality shaken, torn to the ground and were mutilated, those that lived are stronger because of it, but I don't know if that falls under the same category. That's a good example of something completly the opposite of what I've said tho - so feel free to continue discussing - I'm not trying to be a show-stopper here

[edit on 7/2/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

[edit on 7/2/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun

All the toys I buy you for Christmas are going to a credit card with an APR of 25% and you'll actually be paying for all this when I die. Sleep tight honey bunny!

That nickle I gave you for your first tooth actually came from the change I got from buying a Playboy because your mother just doens't cut it anymore.

St. Patrick's day isn't about pinching your classmates, it's about drinking green beer until you puke and pass out in your car while driving home, leaving you without a father.

Valentine's day will be a day you will soon treasue honey bumpkins - it'll be the day you loose your virginity to a the man you will marry. Later you'll divorce him because he'll beat you.

...
Childhood is the age of innocence and bliss - the only time in your life that you can be at a playground ...playing, as children do...playing make believe...and not have the thought running in the back of your mind "Haven't I seen that car parked there with that man in it for every day in the past week?" - The child should be thinking..."Wow! If I could fly I'd be all over this place. Hey, Bobby, I just shot you with my laser gun, haha, your'e dead!"
....
[edit on 7/2/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

I'm not saying you should tell your kids about all that crap that you said. They don't care about Credit cards or anything like that. They shouldn't they are kids. and I never said not to let them play and have an imagination. But about the guy parked in the car. The child should be aware of that. You know why? Kids are abducted every day. And usualy on a playground in broad daylight. There are some things we should tell our kids but usualy parents won't. And then they wonder how little Jonny could have been taken by someone. Or how little Sue got pregnant at 13. Somethings kids need to know. But only the things that will protect them and keep them safe. But also if they come up to their parents and ask a question the parent should answer it. Whether its' a question about sex or why the grass is green. They should answer it to the best of their ablity. Some things kids deserve to know. And if the kid is old enough and mature enough to know what they are asking they should be old and mature enough to be told the right answer.

Originally posted by HombreConUnPolloThe child should be aware of that. You know why? Kids are abducted every day. And usualy on a playground in broad daylight.

I didn't touch on that in order to keep my post brief, but I assumed that readers would naturally understand that I wasn't purposefully belittling the issue of informing your kids of what to do if they encounter strangers.

I guess this is just an isse that we differ on - I could go on counter arguing your statements from my side, but I don't think either is going to come away from it more informed than the other and it will just turn into bitter bickering and maybe another warning fore me

What should someone take away from this? If you think you are a mentally healthy human being, with a good set of morals and beliefs, try to raise your kids to be more like you and let them have their own spin on things - they'll decide where they want to take issues like this in their lives.

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
...

What should someone take away from this? If you think you are a mentally healthy human being, with a good set of morals and beliefs, try to raise your kids to be more like you and let them have their own spin on things - they'll decide where they want to take issues like this in their lives.

The thing is though so many parents lie to their children. About EVERYTHING! If it's not one thing it's another. I'm not saying we should tell our children every little thing, but we shouldn't lie to them. It's just wrong all the things that we lie to our children about. And if i ever decide to have children when i'm older since i'm only 17 right now and don't need a kid then i will raise them how i want to. And I will probably never lie to them. AT least not if they ask me something straight to my face. I think it's wrong. And I'm not gonna force some religion down his or her throat either. That I believe is even more wrong.

[edit on 2004-7-10 by Teknik]

My wife and I have several children, and I have found that if a child is mature enough to ask about a subject, they are mature enough to handle at least part of the reality.

This happens at different ages for different subjects, and a parent has to remember to keep things in perspective. For example, when teaching children about the possibility of abductions, bad people, etc, remember to also tell them that most people are not that way. It is your responsibility to teach the child what to do if they are worried.

As far as Santa goes, come on folks!!!! Let them be kids for a while. If they ask, tell them. But don't make it your life's mission to force feed a child the truth with every breath. That can cause problems too.

[edit on 7/5/2004 by Montana]

Originally posted by Montana
But don't make it your life's mission to force feed a child the truth with every breath. That can cause problems too.

Definatly. You shouldnt feel you need to tell a child "the facts of life" or about santa or anything before they are ready. When they are, they will ask-as long as they feel they can trust you. As for me, I chose not to ask my parents those questions anymore, as i have found they lie to me.

I am definatly against force-feeding of truth though. Just dont put off telling them the truth after it is obvious they are ready (obvious meaning they are aware enough to know how to ask the questions)

---pineapple

Teknik - That was an incredible post! I hope you received an applause - A beautiful example of supporting your beliefs and making people think of their own words in an online forum - I wish arguing could always be this well thought out...but, alas, I'm still recovering from my celebrations last night, so I can't tackle anything just yet

Originally posted by Montana
But don't make it your life's mission to force feed a child the truth with every breath. That can cause problems too.

[edit on 7/5/2004 by Montana]

I agree with this statement. Children shouldn't be told every little thing in the universe. And they shouldn't be told oh yeah daddy's boinking his secatary but if the child asks he should be told. If the parents then get a divorce the parents should tell the child why. and explain it to the kid. My parents lied to me for years. My parents aren't married. They still live together but I never knew they weren't married until a couple years ago and I'm 17 years old. I think this is something I should be aware of. Both my grandfathers are out of my life. I don't remember either of them. I've never been told why. This is something I think I deserve to know. I have never know a grandfather. Well step ones but not my real ones. And I would like to and being 17 I think i'm mature enough to make the decision but even if I would ask my parnets about either one of them they wouldn't tell me. I don't think parents should hide the truth from their kids. Especially if the kids want to know the truth.

Kids deserve to know...Especially when they hit their teens. And Especially if they ask.

It is still apparent that those of us who 'deny ignorance' are greatly
outnumbered by those who believe in perpetuating pre-fabricated illusions.

This is the greatest flaw of ATS and the one thing that almost makes me want to stop posting....and I don't think I'm alone on this belief

I respect what ATS offers its members, a group of people who are very intelligent and offer excellent questions and remarks...It is a place where every person has an opinion which is voiced in respect...but ATS appears to have some cult following of posters who twist and warp what the "motto" of ATS truly means!!

These people use lines like the one above to try and cut away at what they see are the flack of these message boards, by insulting them in a public forum under viels of pretty words...their fingers moving in a blur over the keyboard, trying to find the right keys to depress to make that last poser look like a true loser who has yet to "deny ignorance." This is a little like the guy who holds someone up in a store with their finger in their pocket, acting like they have a gun but in reality have nothing at all - you want to talk about a lie that can hurt?!?

Every child has been lied to, some more than others, but those children grow up to be normal people and then some grow up to be politicians - but those who are in favor of never telling a lie seem to be expecting some massive world-wide catastrophic event that's going to occur when some dad tells the worlds last lie...as though these children who were lied to are going to form some kind of coalition and hunt down the world's liars...as if the next generation of children are going to come out of the oven a little undercooked and breed their lies into our countires culture to a point of over saturation and distopia...there's a conspiracy theory for you...

If you're going to sling the mud, why don't you toss in some towels so we can clean ourselves off later - In my hungover state earlier this morning I briefly glanced over your post and was impressed, and still am - it was a very good post, and I complamented you on it, even tho I disagree with most of it - I'm not asking you to do the same, or even the rest of the posters, but my point is that everyone needs a little fresh air every now and then, and nobody can make another person change their position on certain things - with or without an attitude, your posts are commentary on life as you see it and require no additional comments on how you think I see life, being an ignorance denier for someone who needs to deny their own ignorance...

To deny ignorance simply means that you are not going to let the unexplained go by in your life without a nod to the question "why." It means that you question certain aspects of your life and the world around you and you're searching for answers. However, it is not a state of being and it is not to be used as a weapon for people who's opinions conflict with your own - I'm getting sick and tired of people using this as some sort of deturence...and I think people who do this should be warned or even banned - they're lying to themselves and others - and hey, ain't it funny that it went down right here in this very thread

If you find this topic of interest and wish to debate it, go to Deny Ignorance: A How-To Guide - It's dedicated to you



[edit on 7/5/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

Originally posted by Illmatic67
I think we should worry more about the lies the media are feeding our children other than Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

If you examine what they are telling us then you'd understand what they are planting in the seeds of the next generation: Education.

I think your wrong.. those examples make it seem alright, as if it isn't doing any real damage.. yet it is.. it crushes a childs faith instantly ... before they even get a chance,,,

Originally posted by Montana
My wife and I have several children, and I have found that if a child is mature enough to ask about a subject, they are mature enough to handle at least part of the reality.

This happens at different ages for different subjects, and a parent has to remember to keep things in perspective. For example, when teaching children about the possibility of abductions, bad people, etc, remember to also tell them that most people are not that way. It is your responsibility to teach the child what to do if they are worried.

As far as Santa goes, come on folks!!!! Let them be kids for a while. If they ask, tell them. But don't make it your life's mission to force feed a child the truth with every breath. That can cause problems too.

[edit on 7/5/2004 by Montana]

Age is a concept.. of course we change physically, but children are just as smart if not smarter than adults.. The truth doesn't cause problems..
and secondly ... Ummm, Duh.. Kids are going to be kids no matter what.. Stupid Santa or not.. give me a break with that childhood nonesense..

Yes, EnronOutrunHomerun.......
But how can you say you deny ignorance and continue to say things yourself you know aren't correct... The truth is, we don't actually know the physcological impact those lies have on children, because unfortunately every child is exposed to these lies.. They participate in those activities in school, and school is manditory for children... My question is, where would society be if we did away with the pathetic lies we keep alive today?

[edit on 8/12/04 by dnero6911]

>> My question is, where would society be if we did away with the pathetic lies we keep alive today?

Where would we be if wouldn't lie to children and treat them as genius?
A few thousand years ahead, I guess.

LMAO rivergoddess, arnt kids great!
and Oddtodd, you made a great point, We dont get a munual when the baby hatches, its not easy to make judgements on issues you have never had to deal with in the same circumstances. Im betting some of the posters on this thread dont have kids or are not far off being kids themselves.
Sometimes the truth is worse than a lie. We protect our kids as best we can from the serious realitys of life till we consider them mature enough to understand/make choices.
Stuff like Santa and the easter bunny never hurt any kid, phycological impact my ass!
imo telling kids truths they cant comprehend or that will frighten them is far more likley to have a phycological impact imo.
And when some of us say "this will hurt me more than you", there not referring to your backside kid, there talking of guilt.

Originally posted by dnero6911
I think your wrong.. those examples make it seem alright, as if it isn't doing any real damage.. yet it is.. it crushes a childs faith instantly ... before they even get a chance,,,

Let me see if I have this right.....

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny crush a child's faith. Yeah, right....

As for your other statements, the issue isn't (and never has been) intelligence. Barring physical trauma, a person is born with whatever level of intelligence they have, and it remains at that level throughout their lives.

The issue is maturity. That is what changes, and it changes at different times and speeds for everyone. An immature mind understands things in an immature way. An attempt to force that immature mind to understand complex and/or disturbing concepts that it is not ready for will not increase it's maturity, it will only increase it's confusion.

Everyone understands things based on their personal experiences and accumulated knowledge. As experience and knowledge increase, a person is able to understand more complex issues. If you try to present a complex issue to someone with little experience and knowledge it will be conceived in an immature way and they will form incorrect assumptions.

When 'teaching' a child, always try to keep the information you are relating in a relative complexity with that child's level of experience.

My parents never told me santa was real infact my mom told me he wasnt. Whenever I lost a tooth she would just hand me a dollar. I dont like santa clause because he has become anti christmas. He makes kids want to get stuff and christmas is about giving. Nostrodaums predicted that there would be 3 anti christs, I think santa is the 3rd. Well okay maybe thats a little extreme but he does kind of obscure the meaning of christmas.

.
I was brought up on the truth.
I have heard stories about some people/children being crushed when they realized the truth. Especially when everyone else[kids] knew and they didn't.

I wonder are childhood myths preparation for adult myths. You set aside the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus for God or Jesus?

Im an athiest.

Curious, Are you a believer in God or not? Were you brought up on childhood myths or not? If so, which ones?
.

God and Jesus are not myths

Originally posted by Montana

Originally posted by dnero6911
I think your wrong.. those examples make it seem alright, as if it isn't doing any real damage.. yet it is.. it crushes a childs faith instantly ... before they even get a chance,,,

Let me see if I have this right.....

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny crush a child's faith. Yeah, right....

As for your other statements, the issue isn't (and never has been) intelligence. Barring physical trauma, a person is born with whatever level of intelligence they have, and it remains at that level throughout their lives.

The issue is maturity. That is what changes, and it changes at different times and speeds for everyone. An immature mind understands things in an immature way. An attempt to force that immature mind to understand complex and/or disturbing concepts that it is not ready for will not increase it's maturity, it will only increase it's confusion.

Everyone understands things based on their personal experiences and accumulated knowledge. As experience and knowledge increase, a person is able to understand more complex issues. If you try to present a complex issue to someone with little experience and knowledge it will be conceived in an immature way and they will form incorrect assumptions.

When 'teaching' a child, always try to keep the information you are relating in a relative complexity with that child's level of experience.

I disagree, it would just take them longer to understand, if you could sum up all the knowledge in one sentence and give it to someone they will base their life on obtaining that knowledge, and relate their life events to that knowledge.... In giving children something to figure out that they come to understand is false, next time they won't bother wasting their time in trying to understand something not infront of them....

While I understand both sides of the argument here, I must interject. I was brought up believing in Father Christmas, The Easter Bunny, and yes (gulp) The Tooth Fairy. While it added a sense of anticipation and joy for theiir appropriate events, I would hardly say it scarred me emotionally. When I grew old enough, my mother told me, and it stunk for the next holiday season. I never in any way regretted believing - it was a wonderful experience in every way while I truly believed. The night before Christmas when I couldn't sleep, and I swore that I heard Santa landing on the roof - precious memories I wouldn't trade for the world. I guess in the context of this thread that since these all are indeed premeditated "lies", that it is lying to your children. I for one though will treasure until I draw my last breath the days before our Holiday, and the look on my childrens face as they come down to see what SANTA has brought them