The NY Mosque Controversy. Summed Up In One Picture.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Any belief system based in organized religion is dangerous and bad for you. That goes for any of them including Christianity and Islam.

This simply isn't true. While there are hostile sects of Christianity, the main one being the Catholics, most of Christianity has been non-violent throughout their history. Take the Amish for example.

Many religions are peaceful.

Islam is be far the most militant, from the very heart and root of its foundation, and even in our modern era Islam continues to be very barbaric.

What he's talking about is the extremist side of Islam, the majority are moderates who don't subscribe to the 100% follow the Koran mentality.

And how do you know that?

100%? All or nothing, black or white, that isn't a very good measure of the world.

Have you walked through a Muslim dominated neighborhood in Holland? It seems you have came to your conclusions without ever bothering to look up the facts.

Yes, there are many good Muslims out there who only want to live in peace, but the more I learn, the more they seem like the minority. Lets not forget, that people change when put into a position of power.

The fear mongering on here is sickening. I spent 3.5 entire weeks in a small village 35km from Makkah during Ramadan in 2007 because of consulting job. During all the time, I haven't been assaulted once, no one gave me weird looks, and people were generally friendly. That's during their holiest of holy times during the year, only 35km from the centre of their religion.

If Islam is as bad as you claim, why am I still alive??? FYI, I was the only white non-Muslim dude there during the entire 3.5 weeks.

reply to post by poet1b


Dude, are you for real?

Christianity is the least violent/aggressive religion out there? You have not answered any questions in this thread with any level of honesty and come across as bigoted.

reply to post by debunky


My point is that Meccas should be a secular city.

As for your question, Do you still beat your wife?

Our solution to Islam is to do what we have always done in the past when attacked. We defend ourselves, while Islam has consistently been an offender and aggressor when they get the opportunity.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c404db2af640.jpg[/atsimg]

It's of kind of self evident, perhaps a little too opinionated, but this is certainly how I am viewing this non issue.

Thoughts?

~Keeper

Edit To Add: I would urge all those who are in opposition to the mosque to also read the following thread in order to perhaps understand our view a bit better.

[edit on 9/3/2010 by tothetenthpower]

And yet, here is ANOTHER topic on it, on the front page of the boards.

Here is you... "I think it's absurd that this is even being talked about, what a dumb subject"

Here is you still... "So here is my post about the subject"

GJ dude. Classic double think. Completely and utterly oblivious to your contribution to a "Non-Issue"



No star, no flag. Hypocrisy deserves neither.

reply to post by poet1b


We, the Christians are aggressors in Iraq and Afghanistan where we have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people - mostly Muslim.

How would that make a Muslim feel?

reply to post by MrXYZ


Dude, I haven't once demanded that the mosque be stopped from being built, I have consistently defending the right of people to protest it being built.

Constantly repeating this same dumb post proves that you are the dummy.

reply to post by maybereal11


I think that poet1b sounds exactly like the man on top of the soap box in that video. Perhaps he should watch it and take a long hard look at what he is writing on this forum. I think he might think differently after watching it.

I do hope you do not think that I am going after you as a person, just the message that you are saying.

reply to post by poet1b


So why don't you protest for the other mosque to be brought down if you are so against this one being raised?

Edit: It was discussed and agreed by ATS employees that this site has been affected by factions with a cause. Are you one?

I ask because you don't answer questions directly.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by LarryLove]

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Are you implying that a Billion people are exactly in the same mindset and have exactly the same interpretation of the Koran?

Why would you even ask this?

I could go through recent history and give you plenty of examples of how Christianity has set the world back or has tried to "take over" certain parts of the world.

Really? I don't think so. I call your bluff, lets see this history.

Let's see just off the top of my head, there's the Religious Group of Americans who went to Uganda to and convinced a country to start murdering gays again.

And the Pope also going to Africa and telling them to NOT use condoms as it would make AIDS worse.

Um, Islam actively murders gays at any opportunity. These supposed terrible things don't compare the the genocide and mass raped carried out by Muslims in Africa. You are being ridiculous here.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Congratulations, you are man, who lived in a male dominated society, what a surprise, nobody screwed with you. Did you bring a woman with you? I'll bet not.

If you were a woman, you probably would have had a very different opinion.

Originally posted by poet1b

Um, Islam actively murders gays at any opportunity. These supposed terrible things don't compare the the genocide and mass raped carried out by Muslims in Africa. You are being ridiculous here.

Oh wow, I didn't know that.

Could you please provide a link demonstrating when and where AMERICAN MUSLIMS have been going on this Homosexual killing spree?

I tried googling it myself and all I found was this article on the AMERICANMUSLIM.NET CHAMPIONING GAY RIGHTS!!!

www.theamericanmuslim.net...

I have made my position very clear in the past that I emphatically support gay rights especially those of the right to marry and adopt.

Why many of you have probably asked considering my religion?

Well it’s quite simple, while I do not proclaim that there is a shred of evidence in Islam that it’s religiously acceptable for gays to marry, I also proclaim that my theology is not to be imposed on others, nor would I want anyone else’s theology imposed on me. You know that whole golden rule thing?

My point is that I cannot justify a legal system where our founding documents proclaim that we are endowed with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, yet at the same time make it legal for one group or segment of the population to use their religious ideology as a catalyst to counter those inalienable rights toward another segment of the population.

www.theamericanmuslim.net...

[edit on 3-9-2010 by maybereal11]

reply to post by LarryLove


We are fighting in Afghanistan because the Taliban that was in control of the county was actively training terrorists to carry out attacks against the U.S. and other targets in order to push their extreme religious beliefs on the world.

What part of this don't you get.

Chances are, very few soldiers in Afghanistan have any strong religious ties at all.

I answered your first question and others.

You never bothered to answer my questions, so why should I answer any of yours.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Lets just build a replica of Mecca at Ground Zero - I mean - people are so just so sensitive! America should really take note, open their eyes and learn from the Chicago Style Union Human Rights people!

Good Grief - its just a new mosque a mile away from where our Government - I mean a guy in a cave planned the worst attack in America.

reply to post by poet1b


Okay, we'll leave the trail of unanswered posts in your world. Geert's world, perhaps?

We aren't in Afghanistan to fight the Taliban, but ostensibly al-Qaeda. That was the initial focus, but in time we were left in the same position as the Russians. al-Qaeda dispersed soon after we invaded and have set up camp in a number of other countries.

Edit: What questions have you asked? You have evaded most from me. The war in Afghanistan is not about the Taliban. It may shock you, but actually talking with the Taliban may be the only hope to restoring order in that country. The Taliban didn't attack the West. In fact, the US was looking to do an energy deal with them before 9/11 and the Taliban walked away.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by LarryLove]

reply to post by maybereal11


www.religionfacts.com...

Same-sex intercourse carries the death penalty in five officially Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, and Yemen. [3] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban, and in Iraq under a 2001 decree by Saddam Hussein.

www.red-alerts.com...

In the book Azuma proves definitively not only that Arab Muslim enslavement of Blacks is more pernicious than any other slavery in the world (indeed it still goes on today), but that it was in fact viler and more vicious.

This issue, or non-issue is an example of everything that is stupid about Western Society.

I believe that building this Islamic Centre would be disrespectful to the memory of those people killed by Islamic Fundamentalist on 9/11.

Now lets get some things straight.

This DOESN'T mean I am a racist, islamophobic bigot.

This doesn't mean I don't respect the rights of these law abiding, peaceful and well intentioned citizens.

This doesn't mean I don't realise that it wasn't all Muslims who carried out 9/11 (lets leave Truther Issues aside at this point) and that we can't punish all Islamic worshippers for the crimes of a few.

It doesn't mean that I don't understand that this building will be a valuable community asset, one that will enrich and assist the neighbourhood,

ALL IT MEANS IS, I BELIEVE THAT THE MEMORY OF THOSE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES ON SEPTEMBER THE 11TH, 2001, IS NOT RESPECTED BY THE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS BUILDING.

IT IS JUST WRONG.

Yes, they are protected by the constitution, yes they are legally right.

Some things can be legal but wrong at the same time, on ATS we see it all the time.

It's legally right that Tony Haywood receives a multi million pound pension pot, he had a contract. Legal, but wrong.

It's legally right that companies which were bailed out during the credit crunch are now operating as if nothing happened, while millions of people are struggling still. Legally right, morally wrong.

Legally right that a few blocks from GZ, some peaceful Muslims should be allowed to build a community centre and mosque. Yes. legally right, but insensitive and wrong.

Am I islamophobic, hell no, it's not about the Muslim part, the race issue, or restricting people's rights.

To me, it's about being sensitive to the memory of fallen innocents, respecting them, and allowing healing to happen.

I've lost a few friends on ATS over this issue, but I'm proud to have this belief and stand up for it.

All the best, kiwifoot

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by debunky

 

My point is that Meccas should be a secular city.

As for your question, Do you still beat your wife?

Our solution to Islam is to do what we have always done in the past when attacked. We defend ourselves, while Islam has consistently been an offender and aggressor when they get the opportunity.

it's "Have you stopped beating your wife"

Anyway: I would go further than that. I'd say Saudi Arabia should be secular, not just Mecca and Medina.
But turning lower Manhattan into a "No Muslims allowed" zone will not accomplish that. Only the Saudis can do that.
I am really shaking my head right now.
We agree that the way Saudi Arabia is handling these issues is wrong.
Yet you want to handle the Issue like Saudi Arabia would, to show them how wrong that is?

Just watched that divide and conquer Vid.
While its rather simplifying some things (If the Nazis had openly opposed the Catholic Church Nazi Germany would have had to conquer Bavaria, Swabia and Austria as well) the main point is simple, and absolutely valid (And not just for the US): We are all minorities. On one level or another.

Speaking of minorities:
www.fbi.gov...

And here for Europe:
www.loonwatch.com...

reply to post by kiwifoot


You do realize that you said absolutely nothing about *WHY* it is wrong to build a swimming pool, just 2 blocks away from city hall?

Connection with Córdoba, Spain and the backers of the Mosque The Cordoba House cultural centre.

Why Córdoba?

Park51

Park51, originally named Cordoba House (and often referred to as the "Ground Zero Mosque"), is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center and mosque to be located about two blocks (600 feet or 180 meters) from the World Trade Center site,[5][6] in Lower Manhattan.[7] The facility's design includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11 memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people.[8][5] The center would replace an existing 1850s Italianate-style building that was damaged in the September 11 attacks.
Text

www.bbc.co.uk...

Córdoba Spain:

It was captured in 711[3] by a Muslim army: in 716 it became a provincial capital, depending from the Caliphate of Damascus; in Arabic it was known as قرطبة (Qurṭuba). In May 766, it was elected as capital of the independent Muslim emirate of al-Andalus, later a Caliphate itself. During the caliphate apogee (1000 AD), Córdoba had a population of roughly 400,000 inhabitants,[4] though estimates range between 250,000 and 500,000. In the 10th-11th centuries Córdoba was one of the most advanced cities in the world, as well as a great cultural, political, financial and economic centre. The Great Mosque of Córdoba dates back to this time; under caliph Al-Hakam II Córdoba received what was then the largest library in the world, housing from 400,000 to 1,000,000 volumes.

After the fall of the caliphate (1031), Córdoba became the capital of a Republican independent taifa. This short-lived state was conquered by Al-Mu'tamid ibn Abbad, lord of Seville, in 1070. In turn, the latter was overthrown by the Almoravids, later replaced by the Almohads.

During the latter's domination the city declined, the role of capital of Muslim al-Andalus having been given to Seville. On 29 June 1236, after a siege of several months, it was captured by King Ferdinand III of Castile, during the Spanish Reconquista. The city was divided into 14 barrios and numerous new church buildings were added.

The city declined especially after Renaissance times. In the 18th century it had reduced to just 20,000 inhabitants. Population and economy started to increase only in the early 20th century.

Text

en.wikipedia.org...

Naming of the project
Cordoba Initiative, the sponsors of Park51, said the original name "Cordoba House" was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, Spain, which they called a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews.[20][20][21] Some took issue with the name Cordoba; for example, Newt Gingrich said that it was a "a deliberately insulting term" on the grounds that Córdoba was the capital of the Caliphate of Córdoba during the period of Muslim rule in Spain, following the Umayyad defeat of the Visigoths in the 8th century.[22][23][24] Similarly, Raymond Ibrahim, formerly associate director of the Middle East Forum, criticized the initiative as symbolic not of "a gesture of peace and interfaith dialogue" but "allusive of Islamic conquest and consolidation".[25] According to The Economist, the name was chosen because Muslims, Jews and Christians created a center of learning in Córdoba together.[21] Subsequently, Cordoba Initiative renamed the structure "Park51", after the location's address at 51 Park Place,[26][27] although it continues to refer to the project itself as Cordoba House.[28]

Park51 is often referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque".[29][30] Since it is neither located directly on Ground Zero nor primarily a mosque, some news media have cautioned against the use of this term.[31]

Text

[edit on 3-9-2010 by The time lord]