2012: what do we actually know?

Originally posted by MrXYZ
You know, logical and rational people want proof before believing in something. And being sceptical is a GOOD thing, it prevents us from falling for charlatans like the 2012 fear mongers who up until now, haven't provided a single drop of hard scientific evidence.

And a true skeptic realises that being properly skeptical prevents us from falling for charlatans who dress themselves up as scientists and centres of "learning" that are knowingly disseminating lies in order to feather their own nest, safe in the knowledge that the majority of people look to them to verify what is evidence and what is not.

Originally posted by TheIrvy

Originally posted by MrXYZ
You know, logical and rational people want proof before believing in something. And being sceptical is a GOOD thing, it prevents us from falling for charlatans like the 2012 fear mongers who up until now, haven't provided a single drop of hard scientific evidence.

And a true skeptic realises that being properly skeptical prevents us from falling for charlatans who dress themselves up as scientists and centres of "learning" that are knowingly disseminating lies in order to feather their own nest, safe in the knowledge that the majority of people look to them to verify what is evidence and what is not.

The beauty of science is that you can VERIFY claims. Scientific theories are peer reviewed...so no scientist can get away with lies for long before a fellow scientists finds out about the lies.

The same can't be said about pseudo-scientists like McKenna and all the others. They claim to have PhDs, yet if you look it up, you realize that's not the case. They're only after one thing, $$$ through selling books/DVDs and giving speeches.

Fact is, no one has provided any proof of planet X (which you should see with the naked eye by now if he's scheduled to arrive in 2012), polar shifts happening instantly (takes like 100 years to complete, lol), or any of the other ridiculous 2012 theories.

When you talk to 2012 followers, it's almost like talking to brainwashed religious sect members. They completely ignore logic and rationality, and when you point it out, they rant about scientists, lol. Don't like people criticizing your 2012 theories? Well how about you provide proof instead of making random statements?

The whole Mayan calendar thing is hogwash. Their timeline doesn't end, it just enters a new stage, like our calendar does on December 31st. It restarts...but of course the 2012 fear mongers don't tell you that

Oh, and I'm not saying nothing is gonna happen because I'm scared (lol), but rather because of the TOTAL LACK OF EVIDENCE that anything might happen. There's soooooo many 2012 theories, but if you analyze them scientifically, you realize not one of them is based on facts. They're all based on BELIEF, just like people believe in Jesus' miracles, or that there is an elephant god with multiple arms.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by MrXYZ]

What you don't understand is that science is the same thing. The only way to know a thing is to personally observe it yourself. Without this personal interaction, you have absolutely no way of verifying anything.

Science is not an answer book. Scientists sit and think, and they try to work out why things happen the way they do. Some very smart people over the years have come up with some very inventive explanations for how things happen. They then conduct experiments, trying to create an environment that allows them to observe a thing for themselves in a way that can be repeated, that either proves their explanation, or disproves it. Other people then copy that experiment to verify if they get the same result.

At one time in our history, it was widely believed, having been thoroughly tested and observed by scientists, that certain forms of life spontaneously formed from others - bees are born from flowers, mice come from sacks of hay left in a barn. It wasn't until 1859 that Louis Pasteur finally "debunked" this theory solidly enough that it became "disproven".

Throughout history, we have always been convinced that our science is right, proven and verified by experts who know what they're doing, and that we are more intelligent and knowledgable than our ancestors. We has also always been wrong, but it takes history to show us that.

We are currently convinced that our science is right, proven and verified by experts who know what they're doing, and that we are more intelligent and knowledgable than our ancestors. We do not yet have the luxury of history to show us just how wrong we are, but what we do have is another generation of lazy people who decide that there's really no need to think for themselves or verify everything, they just pick someone to believe 100%, be that their religious leaders, their scientists, their government, David Icke or Stephen Hawking.

Evidence is only evidence if you see it for yourself.

reply to post by TheIrvy


But science CAN proof or disprove certain things with absolute certainty!! Take planet X for example. There's NO WAY planet X exists and is arriving in 2012! Why not? Simple really: For planet X to be hear in 2012, you'd have to see it by the naked eye by now.

According to your logic, science is useless...because it's always wrong. That's a very dumb statement, sorry. We have plenty of scientific facts that have been proven beyond any doubt. Take medicine for example. Without science, we couldn't do kidney transplants, or fix broken legs. Or take astronomy. Science knows for a fact the composition of the moon. We can figure out how fast asteroids go.

So there's plenty of scientific facts we have proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Same goes for evolution, in 150 years the theory hasn't been debunked.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by TheIrvy

 

But science CAN proof or disprove certain things with absolute certainty!! Take planet X for example. There's NO WAY planet X exists and is arriving in 2012! Why not? Simple really: For planet X to be hear in 2012, you'd have to see it by the naked eye by now.

No it doesn't, because that makes assumptions. We know that there's stuff out there with mass that we cannot see. We know that there are forces on Earth that are very real, but also cannot be seen. We do not know if some force is preventing us from seeing something that's out there. What we do know is that something out there is preturbing the orbits of the outer planets, and that all of the planets are currently entering a stage of global warming.

We also know that NASA used to very openly believe in another body in our system that wasn't visible by conventional means. They sent an infra red telescope up (anything emitting only infra red light cannot be seen by the naked eye no matter how close it is), looked at the results and said "Nope, nothing out there at all, and anyone who says there is is a crank". Since then several other groups have set up infra red telescopes, all pointed in the same direction.

We can only see things in the visible portion of the light spectrum. That leaves a lot of room for things emitting other kinds of light to remain invisible. That's arrogance, assuming that if we can't see it, it's not there.

According to your logic, science is useless...because it's always wrong. That's a very dumb statement, sorry. We have plenty of scientific facts that have been proven beyond any doubt. Take medicine for example. Without science, we couldn't do kidney transplants, or fix broken legs. Or take astronomy. Science knows for a fact the composition of the moon. We can figure out how fast asteroids go.

Another fallacy. Science is a process of learning, and is therefore anything but useless. According to my logic, anyone who clings to a set of beliefs they personally cannot prove is building their house on sand. Doesn't matter if you believe the man claiming that God made everything with a single word, or if you believe the man claiming that everything just popped into existence out of nothing, it's still taking someone else's word for it without verifying it for yourself.

And yes, we have some great medical techniques. But, you know what would be better? Our bodies already heal themselves. what if we learned how to stimulate and speed that process ourselves, without needing to slice and dice our bodies? We can stick someone else's kidney into a patient with a diseased or otherwise broken kidney, but we can't heal a kidney, they still have to spend the rest of their life on anti rejection drugs and essentially suppress their own immune system. We don't fix broken bones, we just wrap them in plaster and leave them for 6 weeks. We've had absolutely no scientific advance on bones ever, we just allow it to heal themselves, just as they've always done.

We "know" about the composition of the moon. We know that it rings like a bell every time we land something on it, and scientists agree that it's likely that the moon is hollow. Makes you wonder what the purpose of that "failure" of a missile hit was all about last year - were they trying to penetrate the skin of the moon and get to the juicy centre?

We can observe, and make suggestions based on those observations, but every once in a while, something comes along that disproves our theory. Have a look at dark matter and you'll see what I mean. Oh, you can't take a look at it, it's another one of those things that we just can't see even though it's there.

So there's plenty of scientific facts we have proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Same goes for evolution, in 150 years the theory hasn't been debunked.

Oh dear, back of the class, thank you for trying. The theory of evolution is just that, a theory, and it has many many detractors, and many many problems. It's a theory that fits a hypothesis, but it makes a lot of assumptions. Darwin himself said that if we ever found an organ of the body that was irreducibly complex, evolution would be out the window and could not be valid. With our modern microscopes, we have found plenty of the key building blocks of how we exist to be irreducibly complex. Evolution as adaptation is grand, we observe that and can see it. But we've never ever seen a fish give birth to a frog. Just doesn't happen, no matter how many million years you wait. Fish give birth to fish, and frogs always come from frog spawn, which comes from other frogs. Not fish.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by TheIrvy]

reply to post by TheIrvy


You do realize we have observed speciation in nature and the lab, right? I know a lot of creationists claim "evolution is just a theory", yet in 150 years, nothing we found has debunked evolution. Every fossil, all DNA analysis, it all fully supports evolution. It's just that a lot of people don't know what a scientific theory is, and they apply the definition they use in their daily lives.

A theory has to be backed up by evidence and strong proof to be considered a theory, it has to be verifiable, and possible to disprove. So far nothing has disproved evolution in 150 years. We found thousands of transitional species, and actively use the findings in modern medicin and gene technology...and guess what, the theory holds up.

And saying we don't know if there's a planet X because there might be something we don't see is hogwash. We have accounted for all gravity in our solar system...and any body like a planet has gravity and influences other bodies around it. The fact that we have accounted for all gravitational influences in our system makes it very clear there's no planet X in our solar system. Also, for it to arrive in 2012, it would already be incredibly close. If the body had actual matter, we would have detected it...and if it were a black hole, we would have obviously detected it as well due to its influence on the surroundings. So what is planet X according to you? A completely invisible body?

2012? What ever it is, it is. Cross that bridge when I get to it.



Guess I just don't give a rats ass.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by MrXYZ


I personally have logic and reason. Mayans calendar ends for a reason. What that reason is I just don't know. But to say it is another linear calendar is just ludicrous. It is more accurate than the Gregorian calendar and it goes by the death of JC.

I believe the logic and reason you are talking about is stubbornness.

reply to post by MrXYZ


well to me it sounds like you are afraid of what might happen. Or you are just being a complete stubborn person or maybe both.

Interesting indeed...

Also all scientists are in it for the money and that is why they are in the field in the first place. if you say no ,then you are full of it.


[edit on 2-9-2010 by dragnet53]

reply to post by dragnet53


Once again what makes this version of the Long Count calendar right and all others wrong? We have found one calendar that ends after 13 baktun, but at the same time we have found calendars that end after 20. The Mayans had no real unified system set up for their calendars. The only reason people make a big deal about the one that ends after 13 baktun is because of New Age writers in the 80s looking to make a quick buck.

reply to post by dragnet53


If every scientist in the world were in it for the money why do most work at universities. Compared to other things they could be doing, being a professor doesn't pay that well. They do it for the thrill they get from doing research and the possibility of finding something that no one else has. Just because you might get bored from reading scientific journals for hours on end doesn't mean that some of us don't find it exhilarating.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by Xcalibur254]

Originally posted by Zagari
This is a thread for the people who post on this website telling people they are completely sure NOTHING is going to happen in 2012 because SCIENCE says so, because LOGIC tells this way...

So, these are the same people who bash other people because those guys think they know the future?
Don't they EVER REALIZE that by telling people " I'm sure nothing is going to happen in 2012 and I will laugh at you in 2013 " those skeptics are telling people what is supposed to happen in the future?
So, suddenly all the skeptics know about the future!!!

Of course, for them nothing ever happened, and nothing is ever happening, so the fact that Deepwater disaster is greatly bigger than thought is already debunked for them, the Timewave is alrady debunked, nothing happened at all of significant in summer 2010, of course, because millions of Pakistani homeless are non event for them, that is clearly " something that happens every day ", of course because every SINGLE day of EVERY SINGLE DAMN day some flood causes millions of people to be homeless and there is nothing significant in it.

All those people that say " I'm sure this is going to be debunked in 2013 " or " I already know that on December 24 2012 I will laugh at those dumb people " are clearly PREDICTING THE FUTURE.
And they are the same guys who post in every single thread about predictions of any kind than NOBODY CAN KNOW THE FUTURE.
Do you see this?

Nobody of you skeptics have a damn idea about what will happen in November/December 2012.
Damn, admit it already.
How can you know something will NOT happen to the point that you already know you will having a huge party that night? How can you know?

Admit it, because most of you skeptics would be the first ( and only ) people to freak out if ever something dares to happen in a dramatic/huge/world changing way...On that day...
You couldn't handle the damn idea!!!! You would go crazy!!!!

" How is possible that this damn disaster dared to happen on this specific day? On my book it was supposed to be my party and laught to dumb people day!!!! But...What???? Nobody can come to celebrate my party " Science told us nothing will happen "???? How dare they??? This was supposed to be MY day!!! ".
This is what skeptics , some of them, think...
Exactly the same of what some believers think...

I don't think 2012 has to be legend because I will be there, I don't know if I will be alive to see it, I greatly hope to see it, whatever it is...



You skeptics, not us...

Think about it

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Zagari]

Actually no we're not predicting the future. We're simply saying that anything being caused by Nibiru is false. It isn't real. Stichin hoaxed you. So Nibiru isn't going to cause anything in 2012.

The Mayan "prophecies". What prophecies? The Mayans reference human existence 2700 years after now.

Please tell me what 2012 event you are talking about, I'm confused. There isn't one 2012 doomsday scenario that has an ounce of credibility.

As far as predicting the furture, it's no different than saying elephants can't fly. Sure, one day, there may be a mutation that allows an elephant to fly even though the elephants structure doesn't allow for such. I'm guessing there is a 1 in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 qquadrillion chance it could happen. One day. But the fact is every scenario for doomsday 2012 is proven false. There isn't evidence it's false, there is proof. So by the minute chance doomsday 2012 occurrs I'm pretty sure it would be a random unexpected event as opposed to one of these made up hoaxes so many here choose to propagate.

Having faith in something is one thing. Believing in something proven to be false is another. If you want to believe the world ends in 2012, cool, it's your perrogative. But if you say by one of the common theories, your wrong, they are PROVEN false. If 2012 is your arbitrary guess, groovy. But don't bash everyone else who chooses to acknowledge the facts and use their common sense.

I'm a little surprised how many people here are focusing on the definition of "skeptic," reiterating how these "debunker types" must be scared to so cavalierly dismiss the possibility that something might happen; when really the most comical aspect of this mindset, that the OP briefly touches on, is that the "debunker" is often making a prediction himself.

I'm sure nothing is going to happen in 2012 and I will laugh at you in 2013 " those skeptics are telling people what is supposed to happen in the future? So, suddenly all the skeptics know about the future!!!

This position that things will stay the same flies in the face of all evidence.

1. Our universe seemingly came in to existence out of nothingness (our reality literally has a day called zero).
   
2. Somehow gravity didn't thermalize and the universe continues to expand. This unknown repulsive force (dark energy) continues to drive the universe at greater and greater speeds away from this point of inception.
   
3. After billions of years galaxies formed from the raw materials, creating some of the universes first nuclear furnaces.
   
4. Then slowly our own star and solar system congealed out of gases orbiting and compressing down on themselves – eventually resulting in our planet.
   
5. Several hundred million years later the first life appeared.
   
6. During this growth stage another wholly new event in the history of the universe occurred – an extinction level catastrophe.
   
7. From this struggling life, prehistoric man evolved resulting in us as sentient actors (self-aware creatures with opposable thumbs to work our environment)

The universe is strange, dynamic, and constantly creating wholly unexpected new things. Some of these seemingly happening all at once (the creation of our universe on day 0 or the first life springing into existence through abiogenesis).

And people assume that things are just going to be the same old, same old for the rest of history? They have to be out of their minds!

The simple fact is in modern science we do expect something big in the short-term (see bullet-point 4). There's the expectation amongst many technologists that we're approaching some form of technological singularity. Furthermore many social theorists, and physicists alike, believe our society is on the cusp of a Type 1 civilization (where we, as sentient actors, control all the processes of our planet).

The mind-set of dismissing all predictions is frankly stupid. It shouldn't even have to be said, but scientists find patterns to make predictions for what will happen in the future (meteorologists, seismologists, physicists predicting classical motion & more recently space weather, etc.). Really the attitude that 2012 can't be an important date is more a mind-set that the scientific method is the only mechanism for making reliable predictions (which I have to agree is usually true).

The fact is though that it's not the only thing that makes accurate predictions. The stock-market is a wonderful example showing how social mechanisms often give insight about what will occur and, interestingly, it doesn't require a methodical, mechanistic approach to reach this conclusion.

So really this is an attitude that's purely the result of dogma. And I, for one, reject this close-minded self-superior myopia.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by Xtraeme]

The reason the maya calendar ends (all three of them, not just the long count), is that the Sun is going to enter it's 6th 'life' if you will...

The Earth will enter its 5th if im not mistaking, take the Zodiac, we are at the End og the 4th World, abut to enter the 5th... Hopi say Thru Fire.

Thru Fire now ? Hmm.. The Sun and its 'odd' behavior could be a sign of the birth of the 6th sun, Earth gets destroyed by Fire, and after that we have the 5th Earth....

Hopi say the 1st world was destroyed by fire, then we have Ice Age and Flood in between ?

Let us for the fun of it say, each of these are 6500 year now, we then get an Zodiac cycle of 26.000 years.... Earth,Wind,Water , Fire..

I dont know if any of these can represent Ice, but , 4 worlds with an 6500 year Catastrophic cycle ? Just an Idea now ..

Where does all the civilizations come from and where do they go ?
Neanderthal,Cro-magnon, the Clovis people, the Egyptians ?
Humans: 6000 years ago bla bla. and built pyramids...etc..

reply to post by Zagari

My dear friend, DNA was discovered using drugs, you know, honey???

That's an urban myth. That is not true. Please check things before you state something completely wrong.

Your other drugs claims are as ridiculous as the OP. There are objective measures that can be used to detect something.

reply to post by Zagari

So, suddenly all the skeptics know about the future!!!

That's not true. You see your logical fallacy don't you? I'm sure you realized it when you wrote your post. Eliminating the impossible events does not mean that you know the future. In other words, knocking out the stupid ideas still leaves a large number of potential futures.

How can you know something will NOT happen to the point that you already know you will having a huge party that night? How can you know?

All of the stupid ideas like pole shifts and new planets can be eliminated. That does not mean that anyone is predicting the future. It means using the noodle to trim down the list to possible outcomes.

reply to post by lestweforget


Nobody can predict the future.

You cite Mother Shipton who never existed. Weird. The Hopi prophecies do not mention the world web. There is no known chamber below the Sphinx. All you have is some shoehorning here and some of it is rather bad.

reply to post by star in a jar


The correlation of the Gregorian calendar with the Haab calendar is independent of the start date for the Gregorian calendar which is 1582, not the year 1. No one matched up dates by starting at the beginnings of the two calendars. Intermediate dates were matched up.

reply to post by segurelha


So what changes have occurred that are out of the ordinary? Which unexpected events happened?

reply to post by rajaten


That has to be the lamest video you've shown to date. Are you in charge of the lame video department or what? Geez. What a terrible job you've taken upon yourself. Doling out bad videos must get tiresome.