Is Yahweh really the prime creator?

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by Onboard2

 

Thanks. Can you give us a link?

Are you familiar with Wingmakers? The interview is on this page.

www.wingmakers.com...

Most people find Wingmakers too complicated to understand the Sovereign Integral, but this is a very interesting site in which most begin with the book.

Project Camelot-Question 19

www.projectcamelot.org...

reply to post by IAMIAM


You write: “There is one put between us and God, it is created by us, and is allowed by God. It is our own limitations to love each other. We have the choice of whether this divider exists. I choose to not allow it to exist. If you need it, then have it. Suffering exists in this world because we as a species allow it. None of us are born murderers, rapists, torturers, or anything else ‘evil’. We learn these things through life. They are reactions to the life we have lead. They are the results of our choices, and the choices of others. If we open our hearts to love the murderers, the rapists, the ‘evils’ of the world, we would find what pain has brought them to their choices, and with love be able to heal them. It is our choice. Shall we destroy ourselves, or grow?”

We have chosen to go down from the light world to a comparatively dark realm to live out the free will the way we wanted to. We have chosen to act, and with it we have also chosen the consequences of our actions. That is karma. So suffering is actually allowed by us through our actions – the suffering of our victim, if we choose such an action, and then our own suffering as a recoil through the karma. So far I agree.

The perpetrators in most cases act out of pain. To that I also agree. But what about the victims? It will be their karma, because they have before done similar things themselves. Reincarnation, karma and free will offer a solution to the theodicy problem. Nevertheless, it is our duty to help victims in love and to prevent as far as possible that there will be still more suffering.

If that were not so, there would be suffering WITHOUT A REASON, and that the Prime Creator God would certainly not allow.

So far about the theodicy problem on the individual human level. But in things discussed here, the theodicy problem gets another dimension. In a cosmic dimension it becomes more difficult. When the perpetrator is not human, but one who sneaks in between humans and the Highest God and pretends to be God, what then?

Or what do you say to this (quoted from one of my own posts above):
“The ‘lord’ guides his people to the ‘promised land’, but that land isn’t free. People already live there in various towns. Therefore the ‘lord’ commands his people to mercilessly slaughter all of them. In nearly all cases not even a child, a woman or an old man is spared, but they should completely all be killed, so that his people can live in: ‘great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, and houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full’ (Deut 6:10-11). With this, a veritable holocaust begins! In one city after the other they murder and slaughter until no one is left. The only exception is in a few cases that they kidnap virgins. For what? It would certainly be naïve to claim that it would not be for sexual ‘services’.”

Sure, we have chosen to be in a world where this happened. And yet we ask for an explanation of how MASS SUFFERINGS fit into all this. A higher dimension of the problem than that of individual sufferings. Sure, we have allowed such ‘guidance’ and allowed us to follow it in all the many holocausts that have been – no only that one and not only the one that happened half a century ago, but also holocausts of indigenous peoples in the Americas, the slaughtering crusades and so on, not to forget more recent ones in, e.g., Africa.

So isn’t it really time that we now begin to realize the situation that we have been and are mislead by false gods (and by ruthless politicians, too, by the way) and throw off their yokes? And turn our hearts to the Highest God, the only real one? And not only that: also towards each other… Shouldn’t that be our next choice? For ourselves and for our brothers and sisters.

That means to not devote ourselves too much to theory. Not only to theory and especially not to a too abstract theory, but also get one foot down on the earth and also deal with the facts down here. Otherwise it may seem like a kind of escapism from the latter, trying to avoid seeing them.


[edit on 2-9-2010 by memyself]

Excellent thread, man.
I agree with a lot of it.
S&F

reply to post by memyself


My Brother, when one reads the Bible or pulls verses from, he must acknowledge that though the truth is contained within, the container is the culture of those who have written it. Take away the culture, pour the truth from the container, and you can see it. Heaven is right before us. It is promised to all. Deuteronomy is a story of man departing from the one law of God, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Which is why the kingdom promised has not been realised yet.

I don't believe the Bible reveals its truth by pulling out select passages. It reveals its Truth in WHOLE from beginning (Genesis, Gnosis, knowledge) to end (Revelation, Reveal, understanding). All in between are stories meant to awaken the truth, not be taken as the TRUTH.

I also believe that other great works of man, trying to explain God, with love, reveal the same Truths.

I hope my position is clear, if not, ask and I will try again.

Your Brother

[edit on 2-9-2010 by IAMIAM]

Question 2 Project Camelot

Human beings are both dimensional and interdimensional. First Source is all of us. It is the Collective Us. It is not a God living in some distant pocket of the universe. First Source is the Human Collective unencumbered with the HMS. First Source divided itself into individualized expressions – us. In the beginning, we inhabited dimensions that were not material, but existed at quantum levels of time and space.

However, as the dimensions grew in density through the expansion of creation (our creation), we, as individualized, interdimensional beings, were seduced to enter the human body. This seduction was a co-conspiracy of forces led by Anu, the King of the Anunnaki, who required enslaved workers to mine the physical gold that was present on Earth in abundance. Those beings we now consider the Atlanteans, were interdimensional living upon Earth, and Anu, with great cunning, convinced them to embody in human instruments.

I've read that all references to reincarnation were omitted by the Church of Nicea in 550 A.D. Even though not having much use for the OT, I did make an attempt to read the NT and the life of Yeshua or Jesus. I honestly believe someone comparable to him did exist and maybe more than one at that time period. In Rev: Chapter3:12, I think there is a reference to reincarnation. "When you are perfect, you will go out no more and I will build a pillar unto you." (Pillar is a Portal)

I have read the book "Many Lives, Many Mansions" by Brian Weiss.

reply to post by IAMIAM


Sorry, Brother, it is not merely a matter of pulling verses from the Bible but WHOLE STORIES. Here is some reading for you: www.christian-reincarnation.com... . Certainly, these atrocities were done by humans, but in a majority of cases because JHWH told them to do so!

Being up on a cloud it is hard to see many things down on Earth. We have to get one foot down on the earth to also see what is really going on here.

So what do you say about the theodicy problem?

You wrote that perpetrators act out of pain, even if it is unconscious, and we should have love for them, too. And I agree. But what do you say to the victims: "Don't complain, he who did it to you did it because he suffers and has pain from, e.g., a very rough childhood. Understand him and stop your own suffering." How many slaps would you get from victims...?

It is also this side of the problem we are concerned with here.


[edit on 2-9-2010 by memyself]

reply to post by Onboard2


I suggest to read here:
www.christian-reincarnation.com...
www.christian-reincarnation.com...
www.christian-reincarnation.com...

It is not certain that references were omitted in Nicaea and later, except that certain apocryphic texts were excluded from the Bible. It is rather a matter of obscuring certain passages in the translation, so that we will get another idea than the original texts intends to say. Going back to the original language, we find that many passages can also be translated differently, but we are not supposed to know that.


[edit on 2-9-2010 by memyself]

Originally posted by memyself
Certainly, these atrocities were done by humans, but in a majority of cases because JHWH told them to do so!

Existance is like an infinite clock ticking through eternity. Every event is but a cog, wheel, or spring within that clock. All moving in precise order to move the hands to position. The hour draws near, but for what time? That is for us to decide. Total domination or absolute freedom.

So what do you say about the theodicy problem?

Have we learned enough from pain and suffering yet to work together to end it?
If not, then theodicy will remain a problem and dominate.
If we have, then theodicy will cease to be a problem, and we will eliminate it.

"He who did it to you did it because he suffers and has pain from, e.g., a very rough childhood. Understand him and stop your own suffering." How many slaps would you get from victims...?

Yes, though with a bit more compassion then you presented it. Forgiveness is the only way through the pain of an injury. There is enough evidence in the psychological community to prove this. Not forgiving and moving past the injury leaves it to fester and grow. Eventually the injured, becomes the injurer of others.

Does this make sense now my Brother?

Let me know if I need to elaborate any further.

reply to post by IAMIAM


Yes, forgiveness is the only thing that makes us definitely free. When we hate and accuse, we hold on to the pain. In fact, some even seem to want to keep the pain so that they can hate better...

But I still feel that you are avoiding some issues here to make it more comfortable up on the cloud...

reply to post by LeoVirgo


„The view has been quite widely followed in recent years that Yahweh originated as a form of ’El … but this view is open to serious objections. (i) The character of ’El as known from the Ugaritic texts is uniformly benevolent, whereas Yahweh has a fierce as well as a kind side. (ii) In early poetic passages such as Jdc 4.4ff Yahweh is associated with the storm, which does not fit to ’El.”
“However, whatever Yahweh’s precise origins – the view that he was originally the god of Mt. Sinai still has a lot to be said for it.”
“… Yahweh also quite naturally appropriated the sons of ’El … seventy in number according to KTU 1.4.VI.46 …”
“… Yahweh was not ’El but became equated with him …”
“It was sometimes thought that Resheph was a fertility god. However, it is now clear that he was an underworld god who brought plague … In a number of Old Testament passages Resheph clearly functions as an angelic or demonic figure in Yahweh’s entourage. In Hab 3,5 … we read: ‘Before him went pestilence (DBR), and plague (RShPh) followed close behind’.” … “Again, in PS 78,48 … we read that Yahweh ‘gave their cattle to the pestilence, and their flocks to plague (RShPhYM)’.”
[John Day: “Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan” in the book below.]

“In Judah it was the from North-Western Arabia/Teman originating Yahweh … who was inserted in the role of this martial weather-god.”
“Yahweh, however, came to Jerusalem not earlier than with David. The ‘new arriver’ was a martial weather-god … in spite of his acculturation in Jerusalem Yahweh doubtlessly also remained a martial weather-god.”
[Othmar Keel & Christoph Uehlinger: “Jahweh und die Sonnengottheit von Jerusalem” („Yahweh and the sun divinity of Jerusalem“) in the book below – here translated from German.]

From the book:
Ein Gott allein? JHWH-Verehrung und biblischer Monotheismus im Kontext der israelitischen und altorientalischen Religionsgeschichte [“One God alone? YHWH Worship and Biblical Monotheism in the Context of the Israelite and Ancient Oriental History of Religion”], 13th Colloquium of the Swiss Academy of Spiritual and Social Studies, ed. by Walter Dietrich and Martin A. Klopfenstein, Universitätsverlag, Freiburg (Switzerland), 1994 – basically in German with several contributions in English and one in French.


[edit on 3-9-2010 by memyself]

reply to post by memyself


Free will:

We have the freedom to have what ever thought and view we can acquire through knowledge without consequences. That means you can dream, fantasize and imagine what ever you like without moral judgment, from any other than your self.

But as soon as you air your thoughts, your knowledge or your dreams from your mind, your words will be morally judged.

Its like saying: What ever you say and do, can and will be used against You.

Our free will stops when we want to execute our free will into existence.

Our free will is judged by morality and moral values when they are brought into existence, and affect others.

We can execute our free will, what ever it should be. But what ever it is, you have to be prepared to be judged by its result.


When "She" created male and female. And cast it out and hid it. She did so, So that "she" wouldn't be judged.



OK. Her is the problem. "She" cant cast out and hide her creation.

Lets say this is "She", her dimension. Her dimension is the white circle surrounding her creation. Whatever she creates must exist within her self. The dark aria out side her dimension is God.




Now, tell me where would she cast out her creation?

If she cast out her creation. She must have handed them over to God!


I want to go a bit further. I want to show you how God created her. And i want to show you that "She" does not create by her own free will, but expand/changes according to Gods intention and plan.

If you imagine a seed! that is what she is like. Within her the creation already exists, it just has to evolve.
The seed will expand/grow, and as the seed expands/grows so will what ever is within it do the same.

God created the seed by a compression. We both agree on that. But we dont agree on that the seed has everything that God had in mind. You imagine that the seed has free will to change it self. But if you plant a tree seed in the ground. You know a tree will eventually turn up. If the tree you planted turned out to be something else. You would wonder how that could be.

God created the seed. God would know what is going to come from it.






[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Continuation of reply to LeoVirgo

From Mark S. Smith: “The Origins of Biblical Monotheism“, Oxford University Press, 2001:
“More helpful is the text of the Septuagint and one of the Dead Sea Scrolls (4QDeut^j) for Deuter-onomy 32:8-9, which cast Yahweh in the role of one of the divine sons, understood as fathered by El, called Elyon, in the first line:
When the Most High (Elyaon) allotted peoples for inheritance, when He divided up humanity. He fixed the boundaries for peoples, according to the number of the divine sons: for Yahweh’s portion in his people, Jacob his own inheritance.” [p. 143]

“El was the head of an early Israelite pantheon, with Yahweh as its warrior-god. Texts mention both El and Yahweh, but not as the same figure (Genesis 49, Numbers 23-24 …).” [p. 143]

At a LATER stage: “El and Yahweh were identified as a single god.” [p. 144]

Interesting reading:
www.sciencedirect.com... rch&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1447186650&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=28f8586d9f6c8acaed 5e691fca4f995f&searchtype=a and
www.ingentaconnect.com... – regrettably available only against payment, earlier the full text was available for free from (apparently no more in the Internet):
pravoslavie.org...

reply to post by spy66


The apocryphic text says: “She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaldabaoth.” See www.gnosis.org...

So it isn’t my invention! Read there about the full story.

By the way, we also have the freedom of speech …

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by spy66

 

The apocryphic text says: “She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaldabaoth.” See www.gnosis.org...

So it isn’t my invention! Read there about the full story.

By the way, we also have the freedom of speech …

Yes the text! Hove you tested the texts to even know if it tels the facts of what really happened?

Do you really believe that the research about these findings are facts?

The only facts are, that they are written. Our interpretation of what is written is subjective.



- Yes we have a free will to say what ever we want. We also have the free will to do what ever we want. But you will also be morally judged by what you say and do. It might even be the last free will you will do. Because we are not alone to have this gift. Free will is bound by morality and moral values.

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by spy66

 

The apocryphic text says: “She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance...

Earlier you mentioned that "she" created male and female by thought. Because what ever she thought came into existence.

She could do this because she is a God. But a lower ranked God than Thee God that created her.

If we illustrate "she" as a dimension, I will show you that she can not cast out her creation or hide it. I can also prove by illustration that she has no free will to create what ever she wants. She will change according to Gods plan.

She can only be the shell surrounding the seed which God created. She is a shell of emitted energy.



To illustrate this i have to show you how God created "her" first.

How God created the seed:

First you have the dimension God. God is infinite in all directions.

1.



God creates the seed by a compression.

2.



Why does it have to be like this?

Because what ever God creates. It must be within him self. There is no other place for his creation to exist.



In reality the compression might have looked something like this image:



You see nothing but light in this image. But this light must come from a source "The seed".

There is no other source that this light can come from.

As you can observe, the light expands towards God. The light expands outwards. As more and more energy expands out from the seed. The seed will change as it cools down. It will cooled down because the energy is expand from It.

Now, there is no way any of these expanding energies can compress themselves and create something new. Because they are expanding constantly. The energy is leaving the seed. So that the seed can evolve.

The only thing that is being compressed it the seed which God created initially. Because the energy that created the seed are expanding from the seed and cooling it down. In other wards the seed is evolving on its own.













[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

Yes, forgiveness is the only thing that makes us definitely free. When we hate and accuse, we hold on to the pain. In fact, some even seem to want to keep the pain so that they can hate better...

But I still feel that you are avoiding some issues here to make it more comfortable up on the cloud...

I can't elaborate on what you feel I am holding back my Brother, without you revealing what it is you feel. Speak with candor and let me know what it is you are feeling. Then we may be able to come to understanding.

Your Brother

The experience and interpretation of 'physical' existence can range from you hit your finger with a hammer, to physicists ever delving deeper into models of 'reality'.

Unfortunately most people have a vague idea, that epistemology only is a highly specialized academic subject, not having any importance in 'normal' life, like hammers and fingers have in the physical area. I disagree; how we relate to other people, what ideological system we prefer etc. is also epistemological. We mostly filter and organize life and attitudes according to preset patterns.

From various epistemologies emerge various models of existence. Once the earth was flat, the center of the universe and app. 6000 years old. The methods for arriving at such conclusions have changed, and now very few believe the old models. Now it's a sphere, not geocentric and 4,5 billion years old.

And then we have still another new idea; .... maybe there isn't any earth at all. That it's a kind of holographic projection on the screen of awareness.

There are levels/hierarchies of epistemologies and resulting answers. I can only applaud Memyself for his agility in moving between them, because there is not ONE answer for all levels. And I would like to support him on some points (it must be noted, that I still haven't read page 6 here).

There is agreement amongst certain groups on a global scale. The experience or theory of a 'reality' basically non-causal non-space/time and non-matter/energy. Alternatively described as an entity or as an 'existence'-level. Brahman, Ain Soph, nirvana, dreamtime, transcendent experience or beyond event-horizon chaos.

What happened from there in a cosmogonic sense, I'll disregard for the time being, but only boil it down to two emerging characteristics of emerging cosmos/the universe. Predation and symbiosis.

At whatever level of creation they come from, the myth of the anunnaki also finds its correspondence globally. The amazonian shaman experience of 'guardians of the outer darkness', the pre-Jesus archonts, the probably genetically engineered nephilims, the eastern Mara. And in contemporary west: Encounters with 'aliens', and Carlos Castaneda's and Robert Monroe's experiences..

These entities/beings are all alternatively described as predatory, hostile, non-corporeal, possessing paranormal abilities and with an interest in human life.

It's not the only point, if these beings originate from a specific 'dimensional' level of existence, what's equally important is, that they all use predatory principles for living (as mankind mostly also does). And while they may not have 'technology' in the human meaning, they have complex methods for social engineering; e.g. through whip or carrot 'visions' encouraging humans to prophet- or messias activities.

Thus there is common denominator in this class of beings, from a gnostic demiurge to your friendly neighbourhood hungry 'ghost'.

This post of mine is somewhat out-of-date as the theme has changed recently, but I believe, that the initial direction was more to the point instead of present theology.

reply to post by spy66


You are right that we cannot take anything for granted just because it is written. Yet it in this case compares rather well with other sources. That may, so far, be a kind of test.

The only real facts I see about your post is that it is also written … so, as you say, we cannot take that either for granted … our interpretation of that is subjective, too … on both sides … even if it is repeated.

True free will develops out of soul experience. It may begin with the absolute free will that “I want this and I don’t care what it does to others” and develops to end with the relative free will: “I want what is the best for all of us.” I cannot say that I have reached that yet and I take the freedom to doubt anyone who claims that he/she has ...

Maybe we are free to judge, also, but it is so easy to make a mistake in the judgment. It happens every day. Didn’t Jesus say: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye” (Matt 7:1-5) and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luk 6:37)?

reply to post by IAMIAM


I feel a lack of consideration for those who suffer. It is so easy to theorize up on the cloud where you don't hear the screams from below.