Revelation; The two witnesses

reply to post by St Udio

Bear in mind that ch11 depicts the "Witnesses" as good guys.
They are favoured by God, and only the enemies of God rejoice at their downfall.
You are willing to place Pope Benedict in this category?

Originally posted by Freedom of Thought
reply to post by nlouise

 

nlouise; Thank you for your kinds words, and yes, I do understand
your point. This is either my 5th or 6th time of reading the Bible front to back, and even I wonder sometimes. However, I digress. Let me show you.

Spirit of Grace Spirit of Justice
(Hebrews 10:29) (Isaiah 28:6)

Spirit of Grace and Spirit of Judgment and Burning
Supplication (Isaiah 4:4)
(Zechariah 12:10)

Spirit of Holiness Spirit of Glory
( Romans 1:4 ) 1 Peter 4:14

Spirit of Gentleness Spirit of Counsel and Might
(Galatians 6:1) (Isaiah 11:2)

Spirit of Wisdom Spirit of Knowledge and fear of
(Genesis 28:3) the Lord (Isaiah 11:2)

Spirit of Wisdom and
Understanding (Isaiah 11:2)

Sometimes, like with The Spirit of Grace(Hebews 10:29) and then The Spirit of Grace (and supplication Zechariah 12:10) and The Spirit of
Wisdom (Genesis 28:3) and The Spirit of Wisdom (and understanding
Isaiah 11:2), it seems to me to be the same thing. I could be incorrect,
but my example would be The Northern Lights over Alaska. Some people
call them the Aurora Borealis; others call the luminescence The Northern
Lights, and others might just call it The Green Stuff.
I would definitely Not call The Spirit of Judgment and Burning an evil thing. Do you remember The Lassie shows on Sunday nights? Ok, how
about John Wayne? Clint Eastwood? All right, my last offer...Bruce
Willis???? The point I'm making is: all the characters that these guys
portrayed 'in the movies' got beat up, shot up, the heck knocked out
of 'em by The Bad Guys. But At The Final Moment, when all seemed
lost.......THE GOOD GUYS WON. We cried, shed discrete tears, and gave
loud 'Ooorah's' for when the BAD GUYS finally got their just desserts.
That is Justice. And without Justice there can be no hope for moral
retribution.
Our God is a God of Love. He is also Balanced, even-handed, and fair.
The opposite of Love is Hate. God hates evil. Therefore, evil must
be punished. That is fair. That is Justice.
The Spirit of Judgment and Burning is a good guy.

Thanks for taking the time in putting that all together that way. Even in the reply I can see how you made the two columns.

I understand that Judgement is a good thing also. I don't doubt it. There has to be Justice because God is Just. I only mentioned Judgement could be bad (in terms of a judging type spirit), and that there were also 7 evil spirits mentioned a few times in the Bible. Spirits opperate through people and there are some people that are very self-righteous and judge others. (there is one such "Christian" antagonist like that in my own life) That's all, nothing really deep on that. I just forgot to complete my thought on that. In the context of the scripture that you provided on it, yes it comes from God.


I'm glad the question came up to begin with, because some things like this never get attention in depth, when there is so much to grasp to begin with.

No matter how much we read the Bible, its BIG, and even reading the same things over and over God shows us things that we didn't grasp before.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Indeed i am

the enemies of GØD and the host from heaven are all around...
just about every sect/cult of men hate Jews to an extent,
then Islam is anti-Christian, NK is anti west & anti Christian,
many Protestants view the pope as an anti-christ figure...

So the leader of Catholics & some 'leader' or force from the
Jewish community (olive tree + lampstand (Menorah))
have a base of hate and bad feelings against them to begin with


...just think of when these Two cannot be assassinated,
when their words cause droughts, rivers/lakes of blood,
when their warnings & prophecies cause plagues & deaths
all across the globe? will they be praised/feared/respected?
NO they will be despised, hated, ostracised

your twist of the situation does not work
(at least to this acute mind)
Yes, to the plan of GØD, the Pope is Good (because he is one of the TW
O doing the Witness mission...and his mission is to punish the followers of the 'beast'...ergo he is Good)

[edit on 1-9-2010 by St Udio]

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by Freedom of Thought

 

Yes and never in most peoples lives will you ever meet someone like this....but you will meet folks that like to use this passage to hide behind....like wolves in sheeps wool...full of judgment and mouthing things of peace and cupcakes, yet tearing others apart.

Logarock, you are absolutely correct. Their mouths speak great
swelling vain words, but their hearts are evil and wicked. It is this kind of
discernment (being able to see what is really inside a person) That God
would want for you. Church is "where two or more are gathered together'
in Christ's name. Doesn't matter if you are at the ballpark, out walking the
dog with a friend, etc.
If you ever felt inclined to go read Titus, Timothy, and Ephesians (New
Testament)....Hey, man, they're short---wouldn't take long at all,
you would see that a 'preacher' is supposed to be 1. a man 2. married
only ever to one woman 3. kids are obedient etc. etc.
So, if you have found that a lot of people who call theirselves preachers
make you feel really funny inside, it might be because they really are not 'preachers' and Not called by God at all, and you are sensing it. Good for you

Question... is the 2nd WOE the mission of the Two Witnesses?

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.




Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days,
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth,
and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them,
he must in this manner be killed.

Question, part 2: or is the 2nd WOE, the earthquake that kills 7 thousand
(which seems pretty tame with the historical earthquakes we have known in 100 years)

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part
of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

summary:

in one viewpoint the arrival & 1,260 days of torment & droughts
administered by the 2 Witnesses, would be enough to classify their
mission as a 'WOE'

or, does the earthquake that destroys 1/10th of the 'city'
and kills 7 thousand (7k as a euphamism for 'great number)
represent the dreaded 2nd WOE ??
~as the placement of the verse seems to imply~

it could be that both the mission of the Two-Witnesses
and the earthquake upon their being raised from death is the combined eventwhich makes up the 2nd 'WOE' warning broadcast by the Angel in midheaven.


appreciate your viewpoint on this

I don't believe the WOE is one single specific event.

At the release of the 4 angels bound in the euphrates river to the earthquake - this whole timeline I believe is the WOE.

I also think the earthquake is not really an earthquake but a huge riot of some sort. People in tumult and in this type of earthquake, 7000 are slain.
Not a single event where 7000 fall through a crack in the earth but who knows.

Note it says, in that 'same hour' there was an earthquake. This could be referring to the same 'hour of judgement' which is not really 60 minutes but a larger period of time. The time of judgement.

Originally posted by St Udio
Question... is the 2nd WOE the mission of the Two Witnesses?
Question, part 2: or is the 2nd WOE, the earthquake that kills 7 thousand
appreciate your viewpoint on this

I would relate the three woes directly to the three trumpets, and I think the second woe is actually the great army of ch9.
The natural structure of ch9 is;
trumpet, locusts, "this is the first woe"
trumpet, great army, "this is the second woe"
but the last element is delayed by the introduction of ch10 and the "two witnesses" story.

On that reading, the story of the two witnesses is not the second woe itself, but something happening at the same time as the second woe, which is why it gets introduced at that point.
That could happen in more than one way.
The persecution of the church in ch11 could be provoked by the disasters of the seven trumpets, with the church being used as the scapegoats. Just as Nero blamed the Christians for the fire of Rome, and the pagans of Tertullians's time were blaming the Christians for things like earthquakes- "the gods are angry at them".
Meanwhile the witnesses are turning waters into blood, and at the same time the trumpets and the vials are turning the waters into blood. As though the witnesses are either helping to cause this or claiming some of the credit, as an expression of God's wrath.

This theory makes the Two Witnesses story a side-effect of the second woe rather than the second woe itself. But something tied in very closely.


[edit on 5-9-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by St Udio
"And Enoch lived 65 years, and begot Methuselah: And Enoch
walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years,
and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not: for God took him."
Genesis 5: 21-24

"And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha,
"Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?" Elisha said, "Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me."
So he said, "You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me
when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not
be so."
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a
chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of
them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
2 Kings 2: 9-12

As they went, so they shall come. It is humanity and abomination for
you to even suggest either one of these saints would appear as a
messenger for the "Catholic " church. Simeon Peter, the disciple
whom the 'catholic' church uses as an icon for 'celibacy' Was Married.
All the accounts given in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke testify
that Simeon Peter Was Married.

Elijah has been identified as one of the 2 witnesses who will come before the second coming of Christ. The other one, should be John who wrote Revelation because he was told to prophecy again to the whole world before presidents, governors, Kings, etc. He alone was given the secrets of the 7 thunders (Revelation 10). It was only meant to be known when he comes in the end times. Everyone will know the secrets of the 7 thunders when John announces it to the whole world.

This is John the son of Zebedee whom the Lord said that he will not die until his second coming. He was the one who wrote Revelation isolated in the isle of Patmos. Like Elijah, John was caught up to heaven to see the events of the future to write down in Revelation. Carefully written in symbols to encrypt the message so that no one will fully understand until it was time for him to come to reveal everything that he witnessed from above.

the 2 witnesses are Israel and the Church

www.herealittletherealittle.net...

Originally posted by BoehringerIngelheim
Elijah has been identified as one of the 2 witnesses who will come before the second coming of Christ.

Assuming that you are correct, how will he come? On a white horse out of the sky?

The other one, should be John who wrote Revelation because he was told to prophecy again to the whole world before presidents, governors, Kings, etc. He alone was given the secrets of the 7 thunders (Revelation 10). It was only meant to be known when he comes in the end times. Everyone will know the secrets of the 7 thunders when John announces it to the whole world.

Again, assuming that you are correct, how will he come?

This is John the son of Zebedee whom the Lord said that he will not die until his second coming.

(Citation?)

If so, what is his street address, his telephone number, or his e-mail address?

I am always interested in the mechanism by which all of these people are supposed to return.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by DutchBigBoy
the 2 witnesses are Israel and the Church

www.herealittletherealittle.net...

Yes, that could be an additional reason why there are "two" of them.
But I note the the site mentioned in your link doesn't seem to take into consideration the "king and high priest" implications of the olive trees in the Zechariah reference. I still think that this connection ought not to be ignored.

In fact they assert that Zechariah doesn't identify the two olive trees.
Surely a mistake? He calls them the two anointed ones.
The king is anointed
The high priest is anointed.
So how far do we have to go to look for "the two anointed ones"?

In support of your original suggestion, my observation that the church is identified as a "kingdom of priests" is also applicable to Israel, originating from Exodus ch20 as well as Revelation ch1 and ch5.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by DutchBigBoy
the 2 witnesses are Israel and the Church

www.herealittletherealittle.net...

Yes, that could be an additional reason why there are "two" of them.
But I note the the site mentioned in your link doesn't seem to take into consideration the "king and high priest" implications of the olive trees in the Zechariah reference. I still think that this connection ought not to be ignored.

In fact they assert that Zechariah doesn't identify the two olive trees.
Surely a mistake? He calls them the two anointed ones.
The king is anointed
The high priest is anointed.
So how far do we have to go to look for "the two anointed ones"?

In support of your original suggestion, my observation that the church is identified as a "kingdom of priests" is also applicable to Israel, originating from Exodus ch20 as well as Revelation ch1 and ch5.

edit on 9-9-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

In general, I have refrained from commenting in any way at all for the past several weeks on your various interpretations of the Revelation of John.

But I must say that I am quite amazed at your ability to talk at such length about things of which you have absolutely no Knowledge whatsoever.

There is an esoteric significance to the "two witnesses" in both the Revelation of John and the Book of Zechariah which is quite familiar to those who have an experience of what is referred to as "kundalini".

The two "anointed ones" are the ida and the pingala--the left (feminine) and the right (masculine) 'currents'--while the central 'current' is the sushumna. (This is parallel to the two serpents winding around the central winged staff of the caduceus, which is the symbol of the healing profession; as well as Jesus being crucified between "two thieves" at the "place of the skull"; which symbolizes the Vision of the "Son of man" or the "Night Journey" of Mohammed.)

In general, I have noticed that the Eastern esoteric tradition--as described in some detail in The Apocalypse Unsealed by James Pryse(?) (I believe)--has a much better grasp of the core message of the Revelation of John than does any Christian or Christian theologian.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
In general, I have refrained from commenting in any way at all for the past several weeks on your various interpretations of the Revelation of John.

But I must say that I am quite amazed at your ability to talk at such length about things of which you have absolutely no Knowledge whatsoever.

Thank you for your interest in my work.
Prepare to be further amazed, because the series is going to continue. Have you read "Fear Not" yet?

I'm aware of your conviction that you are the "only individual in human history" qualified to know the meaning of this book.
I don't claim this kind of direct access to supernatural knowledge, but I make up for it by examining the texts carefully, comparing them with other Biblical texts, and drawing my conclusions from these sources by a careful reasoning process. I am getting reactions which tell me that people appreciate this kind of approach.
And, as a Christian, I look to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
In general, I have refrained from commenting in any way at all for the past several weeks on your various interpretations of the Revelation of John.

But I must say that I am quite amazed at your ability to talk at such length about things of which you have absolutely no Knowledge whatsoever.

Thank you for your interest in my work.
Prepare to be further amazed, because the series is going to continue. Have you read "Fear Not" yet?

I'm aware of your conviction that you are the "only individual in human history" qualified to know the meaning of this book.
I don't claim this kind of direct access to supernatural knowledge,

Well, this would appear to be contradicted by your assertion below that you "look to the guidance of the Holy Spirit".

but I make up for it

Well this, Sir, is the problem with the world: people 'making up' Revelations because they have no direct Knowledge of those Revelations.

For example, the Pharisees "making up" the doctrine of the physical raising of a dead body from the grave when the Doctrine of "resurrection" was taught by Isaiah and Daniel as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

by examining the texts carefully, comparing them with other Biblical texts, and drawing my conclusions from these sources by a careful reasoning process. I am getting reactions which tell me that people appreciate this kind of approach.

Well, of course.

But all of that is nothing more than thoughts concocted by the consciousness of the 'thinker'--that is, the "beast of the earth" aspect of the 'fallen' consciousness which has not received Revelations.

And, as a Christian, I look to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe so.

But I would suggest that the real question here is whether what you have written you now claim to be under the "inspiration" of said "Holy Spirit".

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

Originally posted by DISRAELI
I don't claim this kind of direct access to supernatural knowledge,

Well, this would appear to be contradicted by your assertion below that you "look to the guidance of the Holy Spirit".

No, because "guidance" is not what I mean by "direct access". I think of it as "indirect"

But I would suggest that the real question here is whether what you have written you now claim to be under the "inspiration" of said "Holy Spirit".

No, because I would distinguish between "guidance" and "inspiration".
"Inspiration" is claimed on behalf of those who wrote the Biblical texts in the first place. I don't claim that for myself. I don't have that kind of arrogance.
Rather, I am relying on the promise of John ch16 v13;
"When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth".
I am certainly not the only individual in human history to be guided in this way, but I am acting in faith and acting in good faith and offering my interpretation on that basis.

The two witnesses= The Law and The Prophets in other words the Tanakh or the Old Testament..

This was shown in the Transfiguration on the Mount where Elijah representing the Prophets and Moses representing The Law bore witness to Yeshua (In the Law you can be tried and convicted/released by the testimony of two or three witnesses) with God Himself being the third witness.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

Originally posted by DISRAELI
I don't claim this kind of direct access to supernatural knowledge,

Well, this would appear to be contradicted by your assertion below that you "look to the guidance of the Holy Spirit".

No, because "guidance" is not what I mean by "direct access". I think of it as "indirect"

But I would suggest that the real question here is whether what you have written you now claim to be under the "inspiration" of said "Holy Spirit".

No, because I would distinguish between "guidance" and "inspiration".
"Inspiration" is claimed on behalf of those who wrote the Biblical texts in the first place. I don't claim that for myself. I don't have that kind of arrogance.
Rather, I am relying on the promise of John ch16 v13;
"When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth".
I am certainly not the only individual in human history to be guided in this way, but I am acting in faith and acting in good faith and offering my interpretation on that basis.

I appreciate your perspective, Sir. I really do.

But faith is of no use here whatsoever.

One must speak either from the dimension of Knowledge or it is best for one to keep one's mouth shut...

For the purpose of diminishing evil and violence in the world.

As stated in the Quran: "Conjecture is no substitute for the Truth."

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
But faith is of no use here whatsoever.

One must speak either from the dimension of Knowledge or it is best for one to keep one's mouth shut...

But Paul tells us that knowledge without the involvement of faith has limited value.
"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe...
For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no-one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God".
I Corinthians ch1 v21 & ch2 v11

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
But faith is of no use here whatsoever.

One must speak either from the dimension of Knowledge or it is best for one to keep one's mouth shut...

But Paul tells us that knowledge without the involvement of faith has limited value.
"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe...
For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no-one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God".
I Corinthians ch1 v21 & ch2 v11

Paul is a pathetically poor reference upon whom to rely.

He was a Pharisee. He believed in the pagan-nonsensical doctrine of a physical raising of a dead body from the grave rather than in the Knowledge Revealed to Isaiah and Daniel of the Revelation of the Memory of Creation and the revelation of the memories of previous lives.

And he encouraged his followers to believe that nonsense--for which there was no evidence--rather than the Knowledge Revealed by Jesus in his reply to the Sadducees (and, for that reason, murdered the original followers of Jesus).

And, it was the belief in the nonsense of Paul that resulted in the Holocaust...

And, to this very day, continues to incite conflicts and violence between Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Michael Cecil